albion1971:
Carryfast:
Blimey Carryfast do you read a post before answering? Where did I say anything about flashing starting after LGV training?
What I was saying if you care to read my post again was that no trainee would be taught to cut in sharply after overtaking and nor would they be told to take any notice of any flashing.
No trainees are taught to drive badly but some manage quite well after passing their test and completely forgetting the basics of safe driving.
The point is there seems to be an obvious issue that trainees ‘aren’t’ being ‘taught’ the importance of ‘staying out’ to provide the required clearance.In addition to the fact that while avoided on test for highway code compliance purposes the use of flashing to help in that regard outside of the testing regime is a worthwhile addition to road safety ‘if’ it’s done properly.Not that they ‘are’ being taught to cut in. 
On that note in answer to robroy’s comments the inference seems to be that driving standards are falling because of the difference in old school driving skills not being passed down within the training regime.As they were in previous times when ‘old school’ wasn’t so ‘old’
Big shout out to the White & Co removal combo on the A61 at Carcassonne today who flashed me once clear as I went up the hill past him. As usual I dwelt a pause before moving over. A bit further on I passed a Hungarian (IIRC) who flashed as well, but then went apoplectic with flashing because I didn’t immediately pull in! 
robroy:
I take your point Albion, and on reflection I was probably hasty mentioning the driver training aspect being the cause of all this ■■■■ poor driving that we see today amongst truck drivers.
Maybe you are right the bad habits and crap driving techniques maybe do come after the training and test.
It is that long since I done my training so I can not remember, but surely safe overtaking procedure must be at least discussed during training is it not?
I do also know the flash in thing was a system created by drivers…which worked from the 50s when it was needed more, to today, where it is still done by the good and courteous
drivers,(which includes both Brit and Foreign,) these are also always the ones who can be relied on not to just about put you off the [zb] road by cutting in when their back doors are level with your windscreen.
I stand by the driver candidate calibre theory though, it is a bloody lot easier to convert from car driver to class 1 than once over, mainly because of the minimal difference today between a car and a truck.
There are still good new drivers admittedlly, I do know of many, but where as once over, the thick element amongst us, would have not been able to hack it, therefore not slipped through the net as a lot obviously have done for the last 10 years or so.
I know what you mean. It’s a long time ago for me as well. But yes it definitely would come into the theory part of the test and also discussed in a classroom lesson depending on the training company and maybe whilst driving depending if the situation arose during training.
I agree about driver calibre though. Being bright does help but when it comes to driving you either have it or you don’t and unfortunately there seem to be more about that don’t these days. Attitudes ssem to have changed as well.
albion1971:
I know what you mean. It’s a long time ago for me as well. But yes it definitely would come into the theory part of the test and also discussed in a classroom lesson depending on the training company and maybe whilst driving depending if the situation arose during training.
I agree about driver calibre though. Being bright does help but when it comes to driving you either have it or you don’t and unfortunately there seem to be more about that don’t these days. Attitudes ssem to have changed as well.
I’d guess that like in everything else there is a more PC attitude to authority now than in the day ?.In which case I’d doubt if the modern day training regime makes the point between test standards which need to comply with the highway code.As opposed to after when the established,helpful,cooperation,in the idea of flashing in,could be applied.Which was certainly made clear when I was starting out.Together with the caveats that the use of it was on the basis of in addition to and to help with due judgement,not instead of. 
Carryfast:
albion1971:
Carryfast:
Blimey Carryfast do you read a post before answering? Where did I say anything about flashing starting after LGV training?
What I was saying if you care to read my post again was that no trainee would be taught to cut in sharply after overtaking and nor would they be told to take any notice of any flashing.
No trainees are taught to drive badly but some manage quite well after passing their test and completely forgetting the basics of safe driving.
The point is there seems to be an obvious issue that trainees ‘aren’t’ being ‘taught’ the importance of ‘staying out’ to provide the required clearance.In addition to the fact that while avoided on test for highway code compliance purposes the use of flashing to help in that regard outside of the testing regime is a worthwhile addition to road safety ‘if’ it’s done properly.Not that they ‘are’ being taught to cut in.
On that note in answer to robroy’s comments the inference seems to be that driving standards are falling because of the difference in old school driving skills not being passed down within the training regime.As they were in previous times when ‘old school’ wasn’t so ‘old’
You don’t half waffle on about something you clearly know nothing about. Why would any instructor bearing in mind the vast majority are lorry drivers themselves not tell a student the importance of staying out as you put it? Old school or new it is still of relevance.
The problem is Carryfast you have absolutely no idea what goes on during training these days. That is blatantly obvious from your posts unless maybe you are just bored and want an argument.
Let me tell you that during an LGV test you will not drive on a motorway. You will drive on a dual carriageway for a very short period and may not even be overtaken by another LGV(depending on the area) so there is little chance of any experience. All these types of things are covered in a classroom and during theory. As you should know you really start to learn after you pass your test. Taught the basics but that is all the time and cost allows.
Let me tell you something else if it was up to me there would be very few pass their test as the standard is not high enough to produce a decent standard of driver. There are just as many good drivers produced now as there ever was infact probably more as the training has improved from back in the old school days when you and I sat our tests.Most instructors are qualified now but back then it was just an X lorry driver full of bad habits with no idea how to explain things properly. (A bit like yourself actually)
The problem is the general attitude has changed and more drivers do not seem to care anymore. It is everyone for themeselves and a great deal of selfishness thrown in.
albion1971:
The problem is Carryfast you have absolutely no idea what goes on during training these days. That is blatantly obvious from your posts unless maybe you are just bored and want an argument.
Let me tell you that during an LGV test you will not drive on a motorway. You will drive on a dual carriageway for a very short period and may not even be overtaken by another LGV(depending on the area) so there is little chance of any experience. All these types of things are covered in a classroom and during theory. As you should know you really start to learn after you pass your test. Taught the basics but that is all the time and cost allows.
Let me tell you something else if it was up to me there would be very few pass their test as the standard is not high enough to produce a decent standard of driver. There are just as many good drivers produced now as there ever was infact probably more as the training has improved from back in the old school days when you and I sat our tests.Most instructors are qualified now but back then it was just an X lorry driver full of bad habits with no idea how to explain things properly. (A bit like yourself actually)
The problem is the general attitude has changed and more drivers do not seem to care anymore. It is everyone for themeselves and a great deal of selfishness thrown in.
I’m only going by my own experience in which from memory use of the M4 at least between Slough and Chiswick among other multi lane dual carriageways was certainly part of my HGV instruction routes.While I’m actually referring to just the instruction of give a lot of attention to clearances when returning to lane 1 after overtaking was/is/should be enough for anyone who can drive.Which then leaves the question relevant to the topic do modern day instructors make that point concerning only using the flash according to the requirements of the highway code for training and test purposes.While ‘also’ pointing out the beneficial aspects of flashing in after wards in the real world ?.On that note regarding the so called ‘bad habits’ of old school driver methods and/or training we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Maybe in the London area you would have the chance of more traffic volume however remember as a learner or a learner on test you would be sticking to the speed limit and as most trucks do the actual speed limit or break it it is highly unlikely you will be overtaking another truck hence not have the pratical experience of pulling back into lane one.
Regarding the HC about flashing lights drivers will be told to go by what it says however I would imagine any instructor would explain about flashing headlamps when overtaking on a motorway etc but most would tell the student not to trust other drivers and go by their own judgment as anyone should do. IE Do not move back till you are 100% sure it is safe.
Unfortunately when training there is just not enough time in the day to go through every point about everything. You have to pick up on the individuals weaknesses and concentrate on sorting them out.
Remember the basics of overtaking are taught on car, cat C before doing C+E so most drivers should already know how to overtake safely.
albion1971:
Maybe in the London area you would have the chance of more traffic volume however remember as a learner or a learner on test you would be sticking to the speed limit and as most trucks do the actual speed limit or break it it is highly unlikely you will be overtaking another truck hence not have the pratical experience of pulling back into lane one.
Regarding the HC about flashing lights drivers will be told to go by what it says however I would imagine any instructor would explain about flashing headlamps when overtaking on a motorway etc but most would tell the student not to trust other drivers and go by their own judgment as anyone should do. IE Do not move back till you are 100% sure it is safe.
Unfortunately when training there is just not enough time in the day to go through every point about everything. You have to pick up on the individuals weaknesses and concentrate on sorting them out.
Remember the basics of overtaking are taught on car, cat C before doing C+E so most drivers should already know how to overtake safely.
Thanks for clarifying that.That’s more or less how I was taught.While yes during training it was mostly about being overtaken by faster moving traffic including trucks especially in the day before limiters and increasing amounts of quick more powerful wagons.
‘However’ having said that the difference seems to be that we were certainly taught that over taking and being over taken in the case of trucks had no relationship to cars because of the lengths and sometimes ( now again mostly ) small speed differentials.On that note more emphasis seems to have been put on the ‘beneficial’ aspects of flashing in as part of that with the highway code being seen as more a hindrance than a help in that regard.With the expectation instilled that we’d be using flashing in outside the training and testing regime in the real world.
Assuming that modern instruction is putting more emphasis on car driving overtakes and a negative emphasis on flashing that would explain a lot about what people are saying concerning bad overtaking habits involving cutting in and erratic if any use of flashing.
Assuming that modern instruction is putting more emphasis on car driving overtakes and a negative emphasis on flashing that would explain a lot about what people are saying concerning bad overtaking habits involving cutting in and erratic if any use of flashing.
Sorry to disappoint but your assumption is completely wrong. I am not going to carry on trying to explain something to you that you know nothing about because no matter what I say you will blame it on training rather than the drivers.
Go along to your local LGV training centre and ask to go out as a passenger for a day or 2 and you might actually learn something.
Until then you believe what you want because I do not really care what you think because I spent 20 years in various types of training and you spent about one week 30 years ago being trained and its blatantly obvious you have not a clue what you are talking about.
albion1971:
Assuming that modern instruction is putting more emphasis on car driving overtakes and a negative emphasis on flashing that would explain a lot about what people are saying concerning bad overtaking habits involving cutting in and erratic if any use of flashing.
Sorry to disappoint but your assumption is completely wrong.I do not really care what you think because I spent 20 years in various types of training and you spent about one week 30 years ago being trained and its blatantly obvious you have not a clue what you are talking about.
As I said ‘the basics of overtaking’,as taught for a car,have absolutely no connection whatsoever to those required for a truck in terms of dealing with the combination of low speed differentials and length.Which is why the idea of flashing in was invented to start with.
albion1971:
Let me tell you that during an LGV test you will not drive on a motorway.
Sorry to rain on your parade but I drove on the motorway on both my tests. It’s test centre dependant. My Cat C test was at Featherstone and I went from J10 of the M6 to J2 of the M54. First C+E was at Garretts Green. I was told motorway travel was not even a possibility due to the traffic conditions on the M6 near spaghetti. On my second C+E I went back to Featherstone and did exactly the same as on my Cat C. Pretty much the same route.