Dilemma

[the-snowman]

1 - All the Poles came out to quote
2 - They were all on time
3 - Im more than willing to pay the market rate but im not going to lube up and bend over just because someone is a British national either. If you think a grand and a a half to paint two exterior walls is reasonable, I have some magic beans to sell you
4 - If someone just gives me a cost over the phone,how can I assess that person as a workman? His attitude etc? Plus,how do I know when he does come out to do the job, what he quotes is what he’ll still say when he sees it for the first time? “Ah I did’nt know X/Y or Z. That’ll cost you extra”. What if I have lots of questions? How do you hear his answers on a mobile? Its far easier to get the answers you are looking for face to face
5 - If someone is a tradesman, its not my job to measure up, source what materials will be needed to do the job, take pictures, email them, wait for a quote, email back with any questions etc etc and all that pish. Its their job to come out and look at it, weight it up, measure etc then give me a price. What if I measure it wrong? Or think “Plywood will do” and its the wrong thing? (See above re the phone quote now rising and I now have a useless quote all because it was given without seeing it first)
6 - I’m perfectly entitled to expect someone who says he’ll be there at 12 o’clock to be there for 12 o’clock (give or take 10-15 minutes) and if they are going to be late, a phone call to let me know. Back to assessing them as a workman, if they are late to quote before they have the job, what are they going to be like if I give the go ahead?
7 - Being a one man band does not make it impossible to call me to let me know they’ll be late. It takes 30 seconds to make a phone call.

You can make all the excuses you want (and people like you usually do, with your excuses for the time keeping being a bit of a breath taker in particular) but the influx of foreigners is not the sole cause of the problems in the UK and anyone who thinks it is has their head buried so far in the sand they’d be mistaken for an ostrich.
If you can read what ive written and STILL think what I went through with tradesmen is acceptable then its not foreigners who are the problem, its people like YOU who allow British tradespeople to behave like this and have people like you defend them, make excuses for them and blame the foreigners. Im willing to bet if the Polish guys had been late,you’d be giving it “If they cant be on time they dont deserve your business”.
But like chainsaw last night, all this will probably go over your head because it doesnt fit your agenda that the Brits are all ■■■■ hot, 100% reliable and we should pay more just because they are British national and its the shoddy foreigners who are to blame for everything.
Im not saying every foreigner is perfect and every Brit is crap. All im saying its its not all the fault of the foreigners. Take your blinkers off and stop making excuses for poor workmen just because they are British. I firmly believe in getting the best man for the job regardless of age, ■■■ or ethnicity so maybe its the job of the other tradesmen to rise up and be better to get the work, not the customer to pay over the odds for a lesser service “just because”?

[contraflow]

The-Snowman:
If someone just gives me a cost over the phone,how can I assess that person as a workman?

You’re ■■■■ right Snowman. You need to get him round your house beforehand and have a right good look at him. Are his muscles big enough? Is he good with his hands? That sort of thing yeah?

[the-snowman]

Contraflow:
You need to get him round your house beforehand and have a right good look at him. Are his muscles big enough? Is he good with his hands? That sort of thing yeah?

I was more thinking is he messy, going to drag dirt through my house, drop ■■■ ash all over my carpets or does he even sound like he knows what hes doing.
But thats how I do it. How you assess your workmen and whats important to you based on your lifestyle choice are your business

[dri-diddly-iver]

Yes Snowman, correct.

I also have phoned a few companies for several jobs and to cut it short the foreign accents won! They arrived for quotation time when they said they would (2 were late but did phone me before ) There quotes were very competitive and were around what I expected. Nothing major but jobs I couldn’t be bothered doing.

Probably the biggest job was 5 conifers at the bottom of the garden that were out of control that I asked to be sorted. A quote of £150 was given and the promise that they would all be cut to the size I wanted and all rubbish removed.

Well!! Think I should have put WELLL!!! They arrived on time, straight to work, ladders (trees were high, 40’+) bit of scaffold to work off, then a cuppa Then the saw came out they had obviously done this before because it was like an orchestra working together. The trees came down in sections and landed exactly where the lad on the ground said they would, then moved instantly to the shredder jobby.

Offering them drinks they said, “later, later”. Anyway when the back was broken and most work done they came down to drink and eat. We discussed the rest of the garden etc. Upshot was, they also removed an unwanted apple tree, (ground worker did some weeding without been asked on the rockery because he was bored waiting for others with the apple tree) other little bits of tinkering while passing etc.

End result 1 happy man, 1 happy woman (wife) I gave them £200 and in hindsight they deserved more. They got recommendations from me to neighbours and their van is often seen round here.

I often see and speak to them, lovely people. I need major bathroom work doing shortly and they know someone from their country who can do it, will let you know

[contraflow]

The-Snowman:
How you assess your workmen and whats important to you based on your lifestyle choice are your business

If I can’t do a job, then I know a man who can. That’s one of the reasons why I married his daughter. I don’t need to be “assessing” workmen in my living room with the curtains closed.

[the-snowman]

Contraflow:
I don’t need to be “assessing” workmen in my living room with the curtains closed.

Neither do I but not all of us know someone and some of us need to get a stranger to do the work for us so seeing if they know what they are doing and what they’re like before I let them loose on my house is non negotiable.
But these scenarios you’re coming up with sound like you might be trying to hide something.
Times have changed. No ones going to judge. Live and let live I say

[the_maoster]

dozy:
A few yeArs ago we had 10 poles sacked for fuel theft

By any chance were two of them brothers?

[muckaway]

I was at the services a while back refuelling our puddle jumper, opened passenger door to get something and some do gooder notices two jerry cans in the footwell. “Free diesel?” He asked along with “sackable offence where I work.” The diesel was actually red, filled up in our yard and was to top up our mini digger on a driveway job we were doing (not that it was his business) but peoples’ nosyness can get innocent people the sack.

[rjan]

The-Snowman:
You can make all the excuses you want (and people like you usually do, with your excuses for the time keeping being a bit of a breath taker in particular) but the influx of foreigners is not the sole cause of the problems in the UK and anyone who thinks it is has their head buried so far in the sand they’d be mistaken for an ostrich.

I haven’t said foreigners are a problem. I was simply stating that all you describe is explicable in terms, essentially, of the poor productivity of their countries of origin and the fact that their calculations of value will still be by reference to market rates in that country of origin.

Your attitude is also explicable, in my experience, to the fact that there is a strong bias towards under-estimating the cost of self-employed labour.

If you can read what ive written and STILL think what I went through with tradesmen is acceptable then its not foreigners who are the problem, its people like YOU who allow British tradespeople to behave like this and have people like you defend them, make excuses for them and blame the foreigners. Im willing to bet if the Polish guys had been late,you’d be giving it “If they cant be on time they dont deserve your business”.
But like chainsaw last night, all this will probably go over your head because it doesnt fit your agenda that the Brits are all [zb] hot, 100% reliable and we should pay more just because they are British national and its the shoddy foreigners who are to blame for everything.
Im not saying every foreigner is perfect and every Brit is crap. All im saying its its not all the fault of the foreigners. Take your blinkers off and stop making excuses for poor workmen just because they are British. I firmly believe in getting the best man for the job regardless of age, ■■■ or ethnicity so maybe its the job of the other tradesmen to rise up and be better to get the work, not the customer to pay over the odds for a lesser service “just because”?

To be honest I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m not making any pro-British or anti-foreigner argument. I’m simply saying that, for the equivalent service, a worker long-established here will necessarily cost you a lot more than a recent migrant from a less productive country.

The fact that you’ve had modest inconvenience with getting quotes or with timekeeping is hardly an indictment of the British work ethic, which is where you locate your problem.

The absurdity of your argument is most clearly illustrated by the fact that Eastern Europe is much poorer and woefully less productive than Britain, France, Germany, or any of the developed countries. If they were all Stakhanovites, they’d be racing ahead of us, but what you find is that they work no harder in their countries of origin than we do in ours (i.e. when one’s perceptions of prices are located in the same market as one’s earnings), and they work vastly less productively overall.

The effect you are witnessing is no different to how the people who commute into central London work a ■■■■ sight harder and are vastly more numerous (at any given wage offered for a task) than people who already live in central London.

[the-snowman]

Rjan, get a grip mate and stop making excuses. You might not have said foreigners are the problem but you’re not hiding the fact you think it very well by defending the ■■■■ poor standard I recieved from everyone else with excuses and accusing me of being unreasonable.
Modest inconvenience? Are you having a laugh? Not turning up, not getting back to me with quotes, cant be bothered to come out, turning up late and you think all that is acceptable and is “moderate”? And im supposed to happily give these people money because they’ve been kind enough to be bothered to do the work?
As for basing the cost of the work on their cheaper country of origin, you’re clutching at straws now. The joiner took some measurments then went to Jewsons to get the door and the hinges etc. Now correct me if im wrong but he pays the same price for materials as everyone else so I fail to see why he is cheaper because hes basing it on cheaper economics. He also lives here so he pays the same tax, insurance, fuel and all the other things as everyone else so he needs the same profit margin so all quotes should be at least in the same ball park. Plus that, who said he was a recent migrant? He has been in the UK for about 16 years so I fail to see why he would still be basing his quote on Polish figures.
Even putting all that aside, I already said I dont always go for the cheapest quote. I base part of it on workmans attitude and turning up late or asking me to take some pictures and expect a rough estimate for cost is a pretty poor standard. If you’re happy to accept that then you crack on. Not me though.
My attitude is nothing to do with under estimating the cost of self employed labour. Its about being able to know when someone is ■■■■■■■ down my leg but telling me its raining. The fact you are still excuse making and actually blaming me for their poor business model and customer service tells me ive probably wasted my time even typing this up though.

[rjan]

The-Snowman:
Rjan, get a grip mate and stop making excuses. You might not have said foreigners are the problem but you’re not hiding the fact you think it very well by defending the ■■■■ poor standard I recieved from everyone else with excuses and accusing me of being unreasonable.

I don’t necessarily accept that you’ve received a ■■■■■■■■ standard of service from all of them - tradesmen aren’t obliged to turn up and quote you.

Also, if you are getting surveys and quotes from ten tradesmen requiring personal attendance, you can easily be looking at spending a few hundred pounds’ worth of tradesmen’s time before any useful work has been done for you (not to mention how much of your time has been spent).

If you even let on that you are doing so, then unless you’re a lord of the manor who is obviously a very rich customer, many tradesmen will smell a rat (because ordinary people aren’t willing to pay for the cost of 10 personal surveys). If you talk to customers on a phone every day, you’d be surprised how easy it is to get the measure of them.

Modest inconvenience? Are you having a laugh? Not turning up, not getting back to me with quotes, cant be bothered to come out, turning up late and you think all that is acceptable and is “moderate”? And im supposed to happily give these people money because they’ve been kind enough to be bothered to do the work?

If they’re not bothered about your work, then obviously either they’re snowed under and have to ration their time, or they just don’t think you’re offering to pay enough to make the job worthwhile. I don’t find this remarkable.

I acknowledge some parts of the rest of your account do suggest bad practice (like promising to turn up and not doing so), but even some very competent tradesmen are bunglers when it comes to administration. I know a bricklayer like this, his business is not sophisticated - his work is extremely precise, so he has no end of customers willing to hire him, but it’s always luck of the draw whether you’ll get him.

And more organised bricklayers (who are also competent) tend to focus on larger building jobs. If I want them for something small, it’s luck of the draw when they can fit me in (in an unscheduled fashion) around the larger jobs which take precedence.

As for basing the cost of the work on their cheaper country of origin, you’re clutching at straws now. The joiner took some measurments then went to Jewsons to get the door and the hinges etc. Now correct me if im wrong but he pays the same price for materials as everyone else so I fail to see why he is cheaper because hes basing it on cheaper economics.

I’m talking about the tradesman’s wage or profit, and the relative value of that to him.

He also lives here so he pays the same tax, insurance, fuel and all the other things as everyone else so he needs the same profit margin

The “profit margin” is not what pays for business expenses. The profit margin is what is left after the business expenses have been paid for.

so all quotes should be at least in the same ball park. Plus that, who said he was a recent migrant? He has been in the UK for about 16 years so I fail to see why he would still be basing his quote on Polish figures.

Only you know his particular circumstances, but 16 years is not that long. If he was experienced as a joiner in Poland, has come over here to earn much better wages, and has established himself in the domestic market, he might be happy to see his time out doing that.

Or if he came over as a teenager, he might be a fairly smart guy who, if he was British at that point (and so had the language skills, and the aspirations to do his best in our economy), he’d have trained to be an engineer and poached from joinery into a much higher-paying occupation, but again his circumstances have led him into joinery.

Of course that’s all just speculation, and different reasons may prevail for different individuals. But as I say, the real answer is simply that the wage inequality is drawing good workers from Poland to do what in our economy are modest-value or even low-paid roles.

Even putting all that aside, I already said I dont always go for the cheapest quote. I base part of it on workmans attitude and turning up late or asking me to take some pictures and expect a rough estimate for cost is a pretty poor standard. If you’re happy to accept that then you crack on. Not me though.

It all sounds pretty reasonable to me. “If you want your house painting, send a few photos and measurements, and we’ll provide a price.”

Perhaps because you ruled out these traders with sensible and economical business practices (suited to your general willingness to pay), you’re left with the bullshitters, the beggars, the tradesmen who will treat you as lord of the manor and charge accordingly, and the perfectly workmanlike immigrants who are relatively cheap because they haven’t had the other opportunities in our economy which would be suited to good workers of their calibre, and who are adequately motivated at that price because their benchmarks were set in another less productive society (and they may well have commanded an extremely good wage in their society, which Polish would usually be unwilling to pay for domestic improvements).

My attitude is nothing to do with under estimating the cost of self employed labour. Its about being able to know when someone is ■■■■■■■ down my leg but telling me its raining. The fact you are still excuse making and actually blaming me for their poor business model and customer service tells me ive probably wasted my time even typing this up though.

The reality is that no one is ■■■■■■■ down your leg. You’ve been quoted the going rate for a British tradesman, and the business practices you describe incorporate the economies you’d expect for the domestic market.

[the-snowman]

Whatever you say Rjan, what ever you say mate.
Your “reasons” have more holes than a tramps vest. You seem convinced it was my attitude that put them off. All I did was ask them to quote. I didnt tell any of them what I was willing to pay,I asked them how much it would cost. Perfectly polite and flexible. They didnt turn up, were late or whatever. Dont make excuses for them by trying to blame me.
the point I was making is it is not the sole fault of the foriegn workers for the UK job market that chainsaw was claiming. I never said they were obliged to come out and quote, all I said was I wasnt prepared to take the risk that the phone price he gives me will be the same even if he finds out ive measured wrong or there is stuff he needs to do on top (rotten wood for example) that he would see if he came to look at it first. I dont think im being unreasonable in wanting the (alleged) expert to view the job first hand then tell me whats needed and how much it will cost. If he discovers other problems and he cant do it, he’s lost an entire day (not to mention I still dont have the job done) rather than ten minutes of his and my time to come and look at it.
As for the other stuff, if my job is so insignificant they feel they can not bother to turn up or turn up when they feel like it then you bend over and accept that if you want. In my opinion, that actually confirms my original point. The brits didnt want to do a job they felt was beneath them. The ordinary joe public customer is a hassle they dont want and only want “decent” jobs. Rather arrogant would’nt you agree? The poles meanwhile will do the job no problem. Dont give me nonsense about cheap labour and all the other guff about how they keep the cost down. His base costs will be roughly the same
Chainsaw feels the foreigners are taking the jobs of British workers. I said in my opinion it was the British work ethic, based on my experience, that was the problem and I still stand by that. If SOME british tradesmen feel a job by a single customer is not what they want to do then that’s up to them. All im saying is, if thats the attitude of them then its not the foreigners fault if they’ll do the work and as more and more Polish workers arrive here, it would appear to be a business model that isnt working. Single house jobs are any tradesmens bread and butter but some seem to forget that. Companies I called offered quotes and said they did all manner of building work. Mostly one man band outfits. They offered it but didnt follow through. If they dont want the jobs or to quote then they shouldnt say they do.
Incidently, the guy I got to do the painting in the end is British and charged £360. A full £1140 less than the other guy. I estimated the cost about £500 in my head based on what my neighbour paid last year for his house. Thats where I got a rough figure im expecting from. Not the “not willing to pay the going rate” you’re accusing me of having. I’ll pay the going rate. Im just not bending over when I do it
I think we can both agree there are good and bad tradesmen of all nationalities. All im saying is its not the sole fault of the foreigners that the british workmen are suffering. Lots of them are’nt helping themselves is my point and using phrases like “its those bloody foreigners” is too handy an excuse when the truth is very different but plenty people swallow the line and thats where the problems come from

[rjan]

The-Snowman:
Whatever you say Rjan, what ever you say mate.
Your “reasons” have more holes than a tramps vest. You seem convinced it was my attitude that put them off. All I did was ask them to quote. I didnt tell any of them what I was willing to pay,I asked them how much it would cost. Perfectly polite and flexible. They didnt turn up, were late or whatever. Dont make excuses for them by trying to blame me.

I’m not making excuses for them - I’m saying there is not much here that needs an excuse. There are wasters in any marketplace, but if the worst complaint you have about the British work ethic is that some tradesmen wanted you to take some photos as an opening gambit (something that can be done and dusted in 20 minutes these days, and only has to be done once and can then be sent to many of you are seeking several quotes), or that some of them were as much as 60 minutes late for a survey, then god help you!

the point I was making is it is not the sole fault of the foriegn workers for the UK job market that chainsaw was claiming. I never said they were obliged to come out and quote, all I said was I wasnt prepared to take the risk that the phone price he gives me will be the same even if he finds out ive measured wrong or there is stuff he needs to do on top (rotten wood for example) that he would see if he came to look at it first. I dont think im being unreasonable in wanting the (alleged) expert to view the job first hand then tell me whats needed and how much it will cost. If he discovers other problems and he cant do it, he’s lost an entire day (not to mention I still dont have the job done) rather than ten minutes of his and my time to come and look at it.

But this shows that you are being unreasonable. Even if the guy is on site for just 10 minutes (and that would be very brisk indeed), getting to and from you is likely to take at least another 30 minutes round trip, together with fuel. If you do this with 10 guys at £20 an hour (and I can’t see any tradesman with a remotely healthy business pricing his time lower than this - and most trades would charge significantly more), then either you (or those traders’ other paying customers) have to find more than £100 in labour charges (built into the price that paying customers have to pay) before any useful work has even been done.

I agree that it’s better to swallow an hour’s loss than a day’s loss, but the third alternative is to swallow no loss at all and decline the work.

As for the other stuff, if my job is so insignificant they feel they can not bother to turn up or turn up when they feel like it then you bend over and accept that if you want. In my opinion, that actually confirms my original point. The brits didnt want to do a job they felt was beneath them. The ordinary joe public customer is a hassle they dont want and only want “decent” jobs. Rather arrogant would’nt you agree?

It’s not that the domestic customer is a hassle. It’s that he frequently doesn’t want to pay for the time that his hassling and dithering consumes. Domestic customers can also have quirky problems and bespoke requirements that require a disproportionate amount of thinking - that can consume a tradesman’s full mental effort long before the day is over - and they can also have detailed aesthetic requirements or budget restrictions which pose another hazard to profit if extra work is not anticipated and quoted up front.

The poles meanwhile will do the job no problem. Dont give me nonsense about cheap labour and all the other guff about how they keep the cost down. His base costs will be roughly the same

You misrepresent what I said. The Pole’s business costs will be the same. What is not the same are his own wage costs - that is, what he would expect to earn from being a self-employed tradesman.

Chainsaw feels the foreigners are taking the jobs of British workers.

I agree there is some degree of displacement, and some degree of downward pressure on wages.

I said in my opinion it was the British work ethic, based on my experience, that was the problem and I still stand by that.

It is utterly risible to make an inference about the British work ethic based on your experience of trying to buy a few days’ domestic handyman labour.

If SOME british tradesmen feel a job by a single customer is not what they want to do then that’s up to them. All im saying is, if thats the attitude of them then its not the foreigners fault if they’ll do the work and as more and more Polish workers arrive here, it would appear to be a business model that isnt working. Single house jobs are any tradesmens bread and butter but some seem to forget that. Companies I called offered quotes and said they did all manner of building work. Mostly one man band outfits. They offered it but didnt follow through. If they dont want the jobs or to quote then they shouldnt say they do.
Incidently, the guy I got to do the painting in the end is British and charged £360. A full £1140 less than the other guy. I estimated the cost about £500 in my head based on what my neighbour paid last year for his house. Thats where I got a rough figure im expecting from. Not the “not willing to pay the going rate” you’re accusing me of having. I’ll pay the going rate. Im just not bending over when I do it
I think we can both agree there are good and bad tradesmen of all nationalities. All im saying is its not the sole fault of the foreigners that the british workmen are suffering. Lots of them are’nt helping themselves is my point and using phrases like “its those bloody foreigners” is too handy an excuse when the truth is very different but plenty people swallow the line and thats where the problems come from

If the guy charged you £360 labour, how much time did he consume on the job?

A rule of thumb is that if a market has an employed rate of pay, then you should be charging customers about 3 times as much as a self-employed worker.

[the-snowman]

Rjan, i’ve explained countless times what the issues were and you’re either not reading it properly or you’re cherry picking then twisting it to mean what you want it to. Ill try it ONE more time.
Something I see frequently on this forum is the phrase “the race to the bottom” and if you think Im being unreasonable and wrong to be annoyed at showing up late or not even bothering to show up at all without so much as a phone call to let me know then you are making the race go faster. Im flabbergasted you cant see why this is unacceptable and actually stickup for them and twist it like its all my fault for sitting waiting on them for an hour.
As ive said to you before, if they dont want to come out then thats up to them but dont tell me you will then dont turn up or saunter to my door an hour late and expect me to offer you tea and biscuits with a smile on my face, happy you have turned up and eager to give you money because im convinced you are reliable enough for me to trust with my property.
Ive explained to you countless times why I dont want to just send pictures for a quote. You seem to ignore it (probably because it doesnt fit your agenda) and keep coming back to me being at fault for daring to want it because it might cost the workman money. That’s his problem. He chose that profession and its his job to factor in his quote price to his final job total and give a good impression to get the work. Its not mine to do all the measuring, picture taking etc. Im not wasting his time. Im offering him the chance to get work. Its his job as a company owner to show he wants it and that I can trust him with my house to do the job I need doing. Its not up to me to try to beg someone to do the job without even seeing him first or being able to talk to him properly. Im not expecting ■■■ kissing and the promise of a happy ending but I expect more than “take some pictures and send them to me. Be about 300 quid mate” before feeling like ive to be rushed off the phone because hes too busy to even talk to me. If he’s offering twenty quotes a day and no ones picking him to do the work then maybe its HIM thats the problem, not “dithering customers” costing him money. There’s more to picking who will do the work to what is probably your biggest investment than who quotes the cheapest. Assessing the workman first hand is just as important and is impossible via a phone call. Going with the quote that is the cheapest can be false economy but with people like you around who think having the audacity to want someone to look at the job properly to get a proper base cost and size of the job at hand is being unreasonable then the race to the bottom is well under way. Im not a big customer service demanding person and im far from unreasonable with things but surely you cant think lateness and no shows is ok and reasonable?
Sorry mate but to keep trying to defend turning up late or not bothering to turn up at all is simply astonishing. Even if your reasons for it are genuine, to even think it acceptable and that it is me who is at fault for being annoyed blows my mind.
Its pointless trying to tell you. Ive put it one last time but if you read it and STILL dont get it then when you need work done to YOUR house, do come back and let me know how you got on.

The painter I hired (who came out to quote the job) was here from 0930 thursday and friday, today till about 4 o’clock and is coming back tomorrow at 0900 to finish it. It wasnt £360 labour, its £360 to do the whole job (I was able to confirm this with him because he came to the house rather than me having to ask things via the phone. I was also able to ascertain if he would be using bonding agents, how tidy I could expect him to be, if he would scrape the old paint off etc. I have six labradors so I also need to know how he will work round me needing to let them out etc. Cant do all that via the phone. But I suppose im still being unreasonable wanting to know these things though eh?)

Oh btw, since you think im being unreasonable at not being happy at someone turning up an hour late and you think its no biggie, why dont you turn up at work on Monday an hour late having ignored your bosses phone calls to see where you are and see how happy he is when you turn up.

[dri-diddly-iver]

Well put

[rjan]

The-Snowman:
Rjan, i’ve explained countless times what the issues were and you’re either not reading it properly or you’re cherry picking then twisting it to mean what you want it to. Ill try it ONE more time.
Something I see frequently on this forum is the phrase “the race to the bottom” and if you think Im being unreasonable and wrong to be annoyed at showing up late or not even bothering to show up at all without so much as a phone call to let me know then you are making the race go faster. Im flabbergasted you cant see why this is unacceptable and actually stickup for them and twist it like its all my fault for sitting waiting on them for an hour.

There’s a big difference between turning up 60 minutes late (something I think is generally reasonable in the context of a small firm or a one man band who actually have real work to do as well as travelling between sites), and not turning up at all and never hearing from them again.

I’ve had tradesmen not turn up for a survey (more than once in that case IIRC), but with apologies given afterwards (due to overruns on their primary work). Again I thought it was quite reasonable in the context. Of course I wasn’t hinging my judgment of their workmanship on their timekeeping - I was already satisfied about their competence.

I think they were the fourth I approached to do that work, two reputable guys having been unavailable and the third coming on recommendation but turning out not to have the required skills - but not the tenth, good heavens!

But I fear we may just have to hold different opinions about this.

As ive said to you before, if they dont want to come out then thats up to them but dont tell me you will then dont turn up or saunter to my door an hour late and expect me to offer you tea and biscuits with a smile on my face, happy you have turned up and eager to give you money because im convinced you are reliable enough for me to trust with my property.

But you’re attributing their tardiness to character defects rather than just the vagaries of work.

An advance call to apologise for lateness is nice out of politeness, but in truth it just interrupts the flow of real work (not just during the call but also beforehand in keeping an eye on the time and trying to make a judgment about progress and ETA) and ultimately exacerbates the delay.

It’s like expecting the doctor himself to call every booked patient and tell them there has been a setback because an earlier patient took a turn for the worse. Obviously you expect the doctor to have some competence with his diary, and GP appointments are a bit more predictable, but if the doctor is behind 60 minutes through the vagaries of his work you wouldn’t say something as absurd as that it’s a reflection of British work ethic!

Ive explained to you countless times why I dont want to just send pictures for a quote. You seem to ignore it (probably because it doesnt fit your agenda) and keep coming back to me being at fault for daring to want it because it might cost the workman money. That’s his problem. He chose that profession and its his job to factor in his quote price to his final job total and give a good impression to get the work. Its not mine to do all the measuring, picture taking etc. Im not wasting his time. Im offering him the chance to get work. Its his job as a company owner to show he wants it and that I can trust him with my house to do the job I need doing. Its not up to me to try to beg someone to do the job without even seeing him first or being able to talk to him properly. Im not expecting ■■■ kissing and the promise of a happy ending but I expect more than “take some pictures and send them to me. Be about 300 quid mate” before feeling like ive to be rushed off the phone because hes too busy to even talk to me. If he’s offering twenty quotes a day and no ones picking him to do the work then maybe its HIM thats the problem, not “dithering customers” costing him money. There’s more to picking who will do the work to what is probably your biggest investment than who quotes the cheapest. Assessing the workman first hand is just as important and is impossible via a phone call. Going with the quote that is the cheapest can be false economy but with people like you around who think having the audacity to want someone to look at the job properly to get a proper base cost and size of the job at hand is being unreasonable then the race to the bottom is well under way. Im not a big customer service demanding person and im far from unreasonable with things but surely you cant think lateness and no shows is ok and reasonable?
Sorry mate but to keep trying to defend turning up late or not bothering to turn up at all is simply astonishing. Even if your reasons for it are genuine, to even think it acceptable and that it is me who is at fault for being annoyed blows my mind.
Its pointless trying to tell you. Ive put it one last time but if you read it and STILL dont get it then when you need work done to YOUR house, do come back and let me know how you got on.

I’m not going to address everything you say in turn. I don’t disagree with every point you make, but my opinion does differ on the whole. I’m partly inclined to think you’re fairly elderly as an explanation as to certain things, but I suspect I’m about to get my eye wiped on that. All I will say is that you’re not “at fault” for your position, I just think there’s a lack of realism about the cost of catering to your expectations.

The painter I hired (who came out to quote the job) was here from 0930 thursday and friday, today till about 4 o’clock and is coming back tomorrow at 0900 to finish it. It wasnt £360 labour, its £360 to do the whole job (I was able to confirm this with him because he came to the house rather than me having to ask things via the phone. I was also able to ascertain if he would be using bonding agents, how tidy I could expect him to be, if he would scrape the old paint off etc. I have six labradors so I also need to know how he will work round me needing to let them out etc. Cant do all that via the phone. But I suppose im still being unreasonable wanting to know these things though eh?)

£360 for the lot boggles the mind. A family man would be receiving social security at that level of income.

Oh btw, since you think im being unreasonable at not being happy at someone turning up an hour late and you think its no biggie, why dont you turn up at work on Monday an hour late having ignored your bosses phone calls to see where you are and see how happy he is when you turn up.

There is no comparison.

[the-snowman]

Look Rjan, Im not explaining this to you any more.
You think its all ok. God knows why anyone would think turning up 60 minutes late without so much as a phone call is acceptable but the only explanation I can think of is what I suspected last night. That you are trying desperatly to justify the ■■■■ poor service from the British tradesmen I approached.
Ive told you about 4 times now why I want them to come out and look at the job before quoting. Im not going round in circles. Read back instead of only seeing what you want to see to fit your agenda. Its got nothing to do with unrealistic expectations. All my reasons are perfectly reasonable. I notice you havnt once gave an answer to the reasons WHY I expect them to quote the job in person, not on the phone.
Even your own examples of workman being late are not equal comparisons since
A - I didnt get an apology afterwards. I got an “alright” as if everything was rosy and I hadnt just sat for an hour and a half wondering if he was coming or not
B - I dont have a point of reference about their competance (apart form the fact they were late of course)
C - I dont judge their workmanship on their timekeeping. I judge their reliability on their time keeping. And turning up an hour and a half late for the first meeting isnt a good impression is it?
D - If coming to quote a possible new job gets in the way of “real work” then they wont have “real work” for very much longer

Doctors arn’t running a business. You go to them because they are your doctor. Over runs happen but you ask the receptionist how long and she tells you. Then you decide if you want to wait or reschedule. What doesnt happen is you sit and wonder if he will see you or not or if you now need to phone round to find another one who can treat you. Of course its not a reflection on the british work ethic but its not a level comparison. Its like comparing apples and oranges. I would say “nice try” but it was a pretty poor attempt to be honest

I wasn’t aware that expecting a decent level of service meant I had to be elderly. Since you seem to accept poor professionalism and attitude to potential paying customers as perfectly acceptble, kudos on aiding the race to the bottom to get there quicker. You can bend over for tradesmen who are not interested in vying for the business but instead just want to get given the money. Me, ill still only go to the guy who at least appears interested.

Rjan:
£360 for the lot boggles the mind. A family man would be receiving social security at that level of income.

There’s guys on here who earn less than that for 6 in the morning till 7/8 o’clock at night five days a week

Rjan:

The-Snowman:
Oh btw, since you think im being unreasonable at not being happy at someone turning up an hour late and you think its no biggie, why dont you turn up at work on Monday an hour late having ignored your bosses phone calls to see where you are and see how happy he is when you turn up.

There is no comparison.

Yes there is but try this one instead then.
Arrange a job interview for 10am. Turn up at 1130. Dont call them to let them know and dont apologise. See if they offer you the job. Do this again and again and see how many job offers you get based on these companies impression of you turning up 90 minutes late. You dont get a second chance to make a first impression. Let me know how you get on. Or call them because it will cost you money to travel to them and you dont want to be out money unless you are definetly getting the job. Tell them how much you expect to get paid and tell them to send you details of the job rather than you have to go to them. See how far that gets you in the job hunt

[rjan]

The-Snowman:
Look Rjan, Im not explaining this to you any more.
You think its all ok. God knows why anyone would think turning up 60 minutes late without so much as a phone call is acceptable but the only explanation I can think of is what I suspected last night. That you are trying desperatly to justify the ■■■■ poor service from the British tradesmen I approached.

I’m not desperate to justify anything. I’m simply saying I don’t feel what you’ve said is justified. I certainly don’t think that lateness is a good thing, only that 60 minutes strikes me as within a reasonable margin for a self-employed tradesman.

Ive told you about 4 times now why I want them to come out and look at the job before quoting.

None of which I have found wholly compelling as grounds, for example, for refusing to take simple photographs or measurements first.

That might be explicable in terms of personal reasons (such as age, disability, or just an ineptitude for that sort of task), but where it becomes bizarre is how you found such a request to be a sign of the tradesman’s bad attitude or (paraphrasing) “doing his job for him”!

Im not going round in circles. Read back instead of only seeing what you want to see to fit your agenda. Its got nothing to do with unrealistic expectations. All my reasons are perfectly reasonable. I notice you havnt once gave an answer to the reasons WHY I expect them to quote the job in person, not on the phone.

Because I didn’t find them plausible. Labradors, bonding agents, scraping off old paintwork, they are all things which can be asked over the phone (or at least raised as a preliminary matter, which might give a tradesman reason to visit if he thinks he needs a closer look).

And you haven’t, so far as I have noticed, given any reason for refusing to take photographs, other than your conviction that this is not properly part of your role in seeking a quote (a reason which, if you want me to be explicit, I reject as completely spurious and which I see as evidence of an unreasonable frame of mind on your part).

Even your own examples of workman being late are not equal comparisons since
A - I didnt get an apology afterwards. I got an “alright” as if everything was rosy and I hadnt just sat for an hour and a half wondering if he was coming or not

Only you can know how exactly it went down. I can see why one tradesman might be rude. But I wouldn’t expect out of 10 established sole traders advertising on the open market, and having made a fixed appointment with you for the purposes of a survey and quotation, half would never be heard from again, and more than half of the rest would turn up 60 minutes late without so much as mentioning that earlier work has overrun.

Given your bizarre views generally, I struggle to explain it except in terms of factors personal to you.

B - I dont have a point of reference about their competance (apart form the fact they were late of course)
C - I dont judge their workmanship on their timekeeping. I judge their reliability on their time keeping. And turning up an hour and a half late for the first meeting isnt a good impression is it?

In terms of “reliability” as separate from their workmanship, I just take it for granted that a workman who has priced a job and commenced a job, will complete a job, because otherwise he would forfeit the outstanding price. And I certainly wouldn’t make any adverse inferences from him being just 60 minutes late for an initial survey. I would be sensitive to a tradesman’s attitude in a general way, but modest lateness is not something that has a bearing on my assessment of attitude (any more so than I would think it bears on the attitude of a GP to have a queue in the waiting room).

D - If coming to quote a possible new job gets in the way of “real work” then they wont have “real work” for very much longer

That’s on the tradesman’s head. I think you honestly think you’re offering quality work - when the price you paid itself is clearly insufficient to sustain a stable business.

Rjan:
£360 for the lot boggles the mind. A family man would be receiving social security at that level of income.

There’s guys on here who earn less than that for 6 in the morning till 7/8 o’clock at night five days a week

Which boggles the mind. You are being so insensible about what amounts to a reasonable income for an experienced trader with a stable business, that I don’t think reasonable argument can possibly have any bearing on your view.

Your complaint can be summed up as a complaint that the British are reluctant to work for nothing - or at least are reluctant to establish businesses where market rates are already so low that their personal income would be supplemented by the state.

If I actually thought you were holding your position on any rational grounds, I’d declare you an outright class warrior or agent provocateur - but I haven’t sensed an ulterior agenda, so I imagine it is just a reflection of your personal attributes and a quirky (if not ugly) misapprehension about the nature of the world.

Rjan:

The-Snowman:
Oh btw, since you think im being unreasonable at not being happy at someone turning up an hour late and you think its no biggie, why dont you turn up at work on Monday an hour late having ignored your bosses phone calls to see where you are and see how happy he is when you turn up.

There is no comparison.

Yes there is but try this one instead then.
Arrange a job interview for 10am. Turn up at 1130. Dont call them to let them know and dont apologise. See if they offer you the job. Do this again and again and see how many job offers you get based on these companies impression of you turning up 90 minutes late. You dont get a second chance to make a first impression. Let me know how you get on. Or call them because it will cost you money to travel to them and you dont want to be out money unless you are definetly getting the job. Tell them how much you expect to get paid and tell them to send you details of the job rather than you have to go to them. See how far that gets you in the job hunt

But you aren’t a reputable employer who men want to establish a career with. The tradesmen you’ve called aren’t putting on their suit and clearing their schedules for a job interview with you. You’re a domestic householder with a small amount of work to offer at very low rates - that is the fundamental parameter of your interaction with any tradesmen.

[the-snowman]

Ok Rjan, look mate lets just knock it on the head eh.
Maybe you’re right.
Maybe I am being unreasonable in expecting a decent standard of service before I shell out hundreds or thousands of pounds
Maybe im expecting too much of the tradesmen who answered my advert, called me and arranged a time to come out to actually turn up
Maybe I should be prepared to buy materials from the guy who wanted me to measure because he didnt want to come out to see it first and it turns out I measured it wrong
Maybe Im expecting too much for someone who says he’ll be there for 1pm to show up or at least give me the courtesy of a phone call to let me know he’ll be late
Maybe I should’nt care about what type of person takes a sledgehammer or a drill to my £170,000 investment and should just go with a quick 3 minute phone call of who is the cheapest
Maybe I and all other house holders should just accept our homes crumbling around us because its not not fair to ask a tradesman to fix it as he only wants “proper work” and he cant work out a business model to take on bread and butter jobs.
Maybe im wrong to want a tradesman to do a small job first before I trust him with thousands of pounds of my money. Maybe im wrong and that’s NOT an acceptable way to think

If the standard of acceptance now is that lateness and no shows are to be deemed perfectly reasonable because someone wants to call himself a professional tradesman cant pick up the phone or doesnt want to do piffling little jobs not worth his time and it is actually my fault for having the audacity to want someone to do what is part of his job then god help us in the future

You seem to be focusing on the business costs rather than hearing me when I tell you these people said they were coming out to see me then didnt bother turning up or didnt have the common decency to give me a call and let me know they’d be late. It annoys me some of them dont want to come out to quote but they arent obliged to. I just wont use them and thats their loss for future work of much bigger value. But to not bother turning up when you say you will or arrive late has got ■■■■ all to do with not enough money in it. They could decide that before arranging a date and a time. Its a serious lack of manners, common decency, poor standards and excuse makers like you are letting them away with it and dumbing standards down. One man operation, self employed or whatever DOES NOT, and never will, mean they cant pick up the phone to let me know they are running late. I have no problem with them being late. Things happen. But I DO have a problem with them not letting me know by way of a simple phone call. Its not difficult and the fact you STILL make excuses for it and deem it acceptable is astonishing

I dont think it is just me though and im willing to bet if you took a survey you’d find out you are very much in the minority.

This all started because chainsaw was going on about foreigners with poor standards coming over here and taking the jobs British people could be doing. In my experience, that couldn’t be further from the truth with plenty high standards in foreigners while the Brits couldnt even pick up the phone to let me know they were going to be late (if they were even going to be turning up at all). Im also willing to bet that many of these tradesmen you are defending and making excuses for their dumbing down of acceptable standards will be blaming the Poles for ruining their industry.
The foreigners will take on small, cheaper jobs in the hope that they will in turn, now they can be trusted, potentially lead to more, bigger and more profitable work. Thats the way I would do it. Maybe im wrong again and I should only hand over a minimum of £2K for jobs. Some of the Brits only want the big money and then moan when the foreigners get them. Theres a reason for it and im willing to bet its got a lot to do with what I experienced.

You’re not reading what im saying properly and think im expecting them to work for peanuts. Im not. Im asking for a decent level of service which is not unreasonable. I will pay the highest quote I get if I think the workman giving it is the man for the job (as I said two days ago but you seem to have glossed over it to prattle on about other things). You’re so busy prattling on about how its not worth their time to come out because its not a big enough job you’ve missed the point that they HAD ALREADY ARRANGED to come out but either didnt bother showing up or didnt let me know they were going to be late. I cant for the life of me figure out at what point it became acceptable not to phone someone to let them know you were running late and the fact you are still defending it and telling me im unreasonable for expecting someone who wants my business to give me a quick phone call is blowing my mind.

Ive never once claimed that a brit should be prepared to work for nothing. All ive ever said, if you care to listen, is show me I can trust you first before I decide im willing to spend potentially thousands of pounds to let you near my biggest investment. If it gets ■■■■■■ up by someone, its me whos left counting the REAL cost of giving the job to someone I have not even met before he started swinging a hammer.

[the-snowman]

rjan:
But you aren’t a reputable employer who men want to establish a career with. The tradesmen you’ve called aren’t putting on their suit and clearing their schedules for a job interview with you. You’re a domestic householder with a small amount of work to offer at very low rates - that is the fundamental parameter of your interaction with any tradesmen.

Doesn’t matter. You are saying it’s acceptable to turn up to a potential job an hour and a half late and the person willing to consider you for work should accept this and still deem you worthy of their time to consider you above the others who either got there on time or had the courtesy to call and say they were running late and should be willimg to trust that should they decide to give you the job that you can be trusted to be reliable. It’s the same principal. But I knew you’d come up with some load of bullocks to still try to justify your stance that poor service and standards is justified. So try it and see how many potential employers think it’s OK to turn up late and trust your reliability over someone who turned up on time