Sorry if this is a repost but I can’t find an answer in any archives.
My tight a$$ company has 2 depots and the device used to download my digicard is shared between the two and is mainly kept at the other depot as the majority of our trucks run out of there, it can be ages between me downloading my card and then the device coming back to our depot and me downloading again.
My question is if I am making my card readily available to my employer to download but they don’t have the device to perform the download and I go over the period in which I need to download the data…who is gonna get done/in the wrong ■■?
Your responsibility ends at making the card available for download which should be done every 28 days or less.
If your employer fails to take advantage of the cards availability or doesn’t have the correct equipment to download then they’ve failed to comply with the regulations not you.
Lets face it you can’t force your employer to download from your card can you
Responsibilities of operators
Operators of transport undertakings have legal responsibilities and liabilities for their own compliance with the regulations and that of the drivers under their control. Transport undertakings must:
ensure that tachographs have been calibrated, inspected and re-calibrated in line with the rules;
supply sufficient quantity of type-approved charts and print roll to drivers;
properly instruct drivers on the rules;
ensure the return of used tachograph charts from drivers. Note that this responsibility continues after a driver has left employment until all charts are returned;
properly schedule work so the rules are met;
not make payments to drivers related to distances travelled and/or the amount of goods carried if that would encourage breaches of the rules;
download data from the Vehicle Unit:
—
at least every 56 calendar days;
—
immediately before transferring control of the use of the vehicle to another person (for example, when the vehicle is sold or de-hired);
—
without delay upon permanently removing the unit from service in the vehicle;
—
without delay upon becoming aware that the unit is malfunctioning, if it is possible to download data;
—
without delay in any circumstances where it is reasonably foreseeable that data will be erased imminently; and
—
in any case as often as necessary to ensure that no data is lost (the Vehicle Unit holds 365 days’ worth of average data, after which the memory is full and the oldest data is overwritten and lost);
download data from driver cards:
—
at least every 28 calendar days;
—
immediately before the driver ceases to be employed by the undertaking (remember that this also applies to agency drivers);
—
without delay upon being aware that the card has been damaged or is malfunctioning, if it is possible to download data;
—
without delay in any circumstances where it is reasonably foreseeable that data will be erased imminently;
—
where it is only possible to download the card via a Vehicle Unit (for example, if the card is stuck), immediately before ceasing control of the use of the vehicle; and
—
in any case as often as necessary to ensure that no data is lost (the driver card holds 28 days of average data, after which the memory is full and the oldest data is overwritten and lost. An average day is deemed to be 93 activity changes. In certain operations where more than 93 activity changes are recorded in a day, a driver card may hold less than 28 days of data);
make regular checks of charts and digital data to ensure compliance;
be able to produce records to enforcement officers for 12 months; and
take all reasonable steps to prevent breaches of the rules.
The legislation concerning downloading of driver cards and vehicle units (VU’s) is contained within the Transport Act 1968 - as amended.
The bit you’re interested in is under Scn 97 E, which says;
Driver cards: downloading data
(1) This section applies where a transport undertaking is required by article 10 of the Community Drivers’ Hours Regulation to ensure that data is downloaded from a driver card issued to a driver.
(2) The undertaking must ensure that all data is downloaded from the card not later than the end of the download period.
From that it is very clear that it is the responsibility of the Transport Undertaking (more usually called ‘the operator’) to download the data stored on the card and keep a copy of that downloaded data.
As Tachograph said the download period is at least every 28 days, doesn’t matter if they wish to download more frequently. The other circumstances when a TU must download, before the expiry of the 28 days are;
(a) immediately before the driver ceases to be employed by the undertaking as a
driver, or otherwise to carry out work for the undertaking as a driver;
(b) without delay upon becoming aware that the card has been damaged or is
malfunctioning;
(c) without delay in any circumstances such that the imminent erasure of the data, in the normal course of use of the card, is reasonably foreseeable;
(d) if it is not possible to do so other than by means of a vehicle unit installed in a
vehicle, immediately before ceasing to control the use of that vehicle.
seems to me that in most respects of law and drivers, it is the driver who is ultimately responsible.
As you can see from the above posts it’s “Fact”
It’s also logical, how could a driver possibly be held responsible for downloading from the driver card, we’d have to have access to the companies card reader and computer which many of us don’t have.
I accept that it is fact, tachograph.
and after doing a bit of looking I agree with the replies
However on the logic issue… there are lots of areas where the driver is guilty of an offence even if logic says that it is not possible for him to know about it.
It’s put my mind at ease anyway, so basically as long as I ask my gaffer at the end of the week “do you want my card to dowload ?” I’m covered
It’s such a battle to keep on top of this stuff with them, because our ‘Transport Manager’ is based at another depot, I’m the forgotten driver…even have to warn them when the 6 weekly service is due and even had to remind him that my trailer MOT was up this month…I should be on his wages !!!
George-1982:
It’s such a battle to keep on top of this stuff with them, because our ‘Transport Manager’ is based at another depot, I’m the forgotten driver…even have to warn them when the 6 weekly service is due and even had to remind him that my trailer MOT was up this month…I should be on his wages !!!
Hi George-1982, You’ve had great answers to your question, but the part I’ve quoted has caught my eye…
No matter what your TM says or thinks, there should be some sort of forward planning system at the base office.
If the TM did as he/she is supposed to, both of the issues you’ve highlighted would be known to the TM well in advance and appropriate plans made.
It’s not rocket science to obtain a wall planner and write stuff on it, so VOSA mightn’t look upon this kind of slipshod nonsense very kindly if they do a site visit. If it goes further than a VOSA visit, a Traffic Commissioner might find the need to take some form of action.
You’re not directly responsible for these issues, but you could end up as an indirect victim of the TM’s inefficiency in the event of action being taken. IMHO, any TM should know this kind of very basic stuff already.
dieseldave : I agree totally mate. the guy in incompetant, it’s a joke sometimes but no matter how many times I point it out to people, the attitude is still that he is the TM so must know what he is doing…this being the same guy who has never driven a truck in his life and asks me for clarification on tacho rules
George-1982:
dieseldave : I agree totally mate. the guy in incompetant, it’s a joke sometimes but no matter how many times I point it out to people, the attitude is still that he is the TM so must know what he is doing…this being the same guy who has never driven a truck in his life and asks me for clarification on tacho rules
Hi George-1982, this guy takes some believing.
You TM seems to be so short of the basics that I wonder whether he has ever passed the operator’s CPC exams?
I’m just wondering, but what colour is the ‘O’ licence disc in your windscreen?
As for him being the TM and therefore being right… it says Ty-Phoo on some buses, but they don’t all sell tea.
Responsibilities of operators
Operators of transport undertakings have legal responsibilities and liabilities for their own compliance with the regulations and that of the drivers under their control. Transport undertakings must:
ensure that tachographs have been calibrated, inspected and re-calibrated in line with the rules;
supply sufficient quantity of type-approved charts and print roll to drivers;
properly instruct drivers on the rules;
ensure the return of used tachograph charts from drivers. Note that this responsibility continues after a driver has left employment until all charts are returned;
properly schedule work so the rules are met;
not make payments to drivers related to distances travelled and/or the amount of goods carried if that would encourage breaches of the rules;
download data from the Vehicle Unit:
—
at least every 56 calendar days;
—
immediately before transferring control of the use of the vehicle to another person (for example, when the vehicle is sold or de-hired);
—
without delay upon permanently removing the unit from service in the vehicle;
—
without delay upon becoming aware that the unit is malfunctioning, if it is possible to download data;
—
without delay in any circumstances where it is reasonably foreseeable that data will be erased imminently; and
—
in any case as often as necessary to ensure that no data is lost (the Vehicle Unit holds 365 days’ worth of average data, after which the memory is full and the oldest data is overwritten and lost);
download data from driver cards:
—
at least every 28 calendar days;
—
immediately before the driver ceases to be employed by the undertaking (remember that this also applies to agency drivers);
—
without delay upon being aware that the card has been damaged or is malfunctioning, if it is possible to download data;
—
without delay in any circumstances where it is reasonably foreseeable that data will be erased imminently;
—
where it is only possible to download the card via a Vehicle Unit (for example, if the card is stuck), immediately before ceasing control of the use of the vehicle; and
—
in any case as often as necessary to ensure that no data is lost (the driver card holds 28 days of average data, after which the memory is full and the oldest data is overwritten and lost. An average day is deemed to be 93 activity changes. In certain operations where more than 93 activity changes are recorded in a day, a driver card may hold less than 28 days of data);
make regular checks of charts and digital data to ensure compliance;
be able to produce records to enforcement officers for 12 months; and
take all reasonable steps to prevent breaches of the rules.
Other responsibilities. FEED MONKEY.
George-1982:
Cheers for the replies all
It’s put my mind at ease anyway, so basically as long as I ask my gaffer at the end of the week “do you want my card to dowload ?” I’m covered
It’s such a battle to keep on top of this stuff with them, because our ‘Transport Manager’ is based at another depot, I’m the forgotten driver…even have to warn them when the 6 weekly service is due and even had to remind him that my trailer MOT was up this month…I should be on his wages !!!
Thanks again.
Do not worry about 6 week inspection, it is not written in stone.
Wheel Nut:
Do not worry about 6 week inspection, it is not written in stone.
Hi Malc, If six weekly inspections are what has been agreed, then that’s what’s usually expected.
Reading the legal section of Commercial Motor, I’ve read about several TM’s landing in front of a TC for extending agreed inspection periods.
Since the ‘O’ licencing system is based on trust and promises made, I’m afraid that it seems that a TC usually takes a fairly dim view of extended inspection periods if it comes to light that they’ve been extended without going through the formality of first seeking the TC’s permission.
dieseldave:
I’m just wondering, but what colour is the ‘O’ licence disc in your windscreen?
Orange, what does that mean ?
Hi George, That explains everything mate!!
An orange ‘O’ licence disc means that the firm is carrying its own goods.
They need an ‘O’ licence, which they’ve clearly got- hence the orange disc.
However, they don’t need a TM who is actually qualified by passing exams- strange but true!!
I would remind the TM that he should have a look at the promises made at the time of application for, and granting of, the ‘O’ licence to remind him of his responsibilities. Those promises are called “undertakings” and they form the basis of the permission that your firm have in order to operate goods vehicles.
An important promise that somebody at your firm made to the Traffic Commissioner is to monitor and control drivers’ hours, so now I’m wondering how your TM would answer a VOSA officer if he were asked to demonstrate the system(s) he has in place to achieve this?
(Some basic form of records of tacho analysis and actions taken when breaches are found would probably be enough.)
Another important promise that somebody at your firm made to the Traffic Commissioner is to operate goods vehicles in a fit and serviceable condition at all times, so I’d again ask your TM how he would demonstrate this if he were asked.
(Some form of forward planning system showing servicing, maintenance and any remedial actions taken would probably be enough.) Driver defect/rectification forms should also be retained by a TM who is on top of the job.
It’s not me that needs those answers, but I’d suggest that your TM really ought to give some thought to what he would say to an inspecting police or VOSA Officer if they call in for a visit. He needs to know that those are the kind of questions that do get asked.
Please don’t worry about any of this yourself, because it’s way outside of an employed driver’s responsibilities. All I suggest you need to think about is how you comply with the requirements placed upon a driver.
In other words the vehicle may only carry goods (effectively) belonging to the Operator, or raw materials for processing. They cannot carry goods for ‘hire and reward,’ in other words delivering goods on behalf of an owner / manufacturer and charging for the carriage of those goods. Although nothing to stop them charging for delivery of their own goods.
As an example; company makes 3 piece suites. With a Restricted licence they can carry the timber, fabric and foam from the suppliers back to their factory where those items are turned into finished product. They could sell the 3 piece suites to customers up and down the country (and abroad) and use their vehicle to deliver the furniture. They could charge the end user for delivery. What they could not do is collect foam from a supplier and deliver it to another company and charge either the supplier or their customer for the transport.
Restricted Licence holders do not (currently) need a Transport Manager or anybody else to hold a CPC (Certificate of Professional Competence). All other undertakings are the same as those that hold Standard National (blue) or International (green) licences. A point often forgotten by Restricted licence holders. Don’t get me wrong, there are some Restricted Operators who are really good, there are some who use the phrase ‘we’re too busy to worry about all those pointless transport laws’ that I have special places reserved for, it’s called Court and Public Inquiry
Well that made for some interesting reading, so it turns out that the ‘know it all’ TM probably hasn’t even done his CPC…that would explain his lack of understanding then, considering he hasn’t got a HGV licence either
So when I undertake my driver’s cpc, I’ll be more qualified to do his job than my TM
Fairplay you guys really know you’re stuff on here, I’m glad I’ve found this resource to tap into
Hi geebee45 I couldn’t help but notice your use of the word “currently.”
I’m aware that some of the TCs may hold an opinion on this, but do you know of any forthcoming legal changes please?
Something that is being discussed, but don’t hold your breath. I’m sure some of the trade associations would be up in arms were the prospect to get near the Statute Book, something to do with ‘increasing the burden of compliance.’
INMHO it is long overdue. There is nothing stopping an Operator running on a Restricted licence having a very large fleet with effectively no CPC holder employed. Like I said earlier, I have come across Restricted licence holders that could put many Standard licence holders to shame. Unfortunately, they are, in my experience, outnumbered by those that use the excuse ‘we didn’t know, we only have a Restricted licence you see.’ They seem to have forgotten that all licence applications fill in the same form and sign the same ‘undertakings.’ Used to take a copy of the form to Court so the Magistrates could see for themselves, that wiped a few smiles of faces!!
