I am hiring a Minibus to take family to a celebration in the Netherlands. The hire company say I need to use a Digi Card (which I have as an HGV driver) as the Belgians insist upon it. Do I have to stick by the rules for Private use (Travelling out at 0400 for celebration at 1500 which finishes at 2200 and then onward to hotel - which takes me over 15 hours)? If not how do I show this?
Belgium is part of the EU so have the same EU regs as we do.
EU DRIVER REGS
Article 2
- This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
(a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds 3,5 tonnes, or
(b) of passengers by vehicles which are constructed or permanently adapted for carrying more than nine persons including the driver, and are intended for that purpose.
So if your minibus has 9 seats or less (including that of the driver) then no tacho required whether for commercial or private use
As ROG said, no tacho needed is there less than 8+1 seats.
If there’s more than that but less than something (17?) and the transport is non-commercial then an exclusion may or may not apply, depending on country.
Once you are under the rules you have to stick to the hours though.
Its a 17 seater minibus (as there are 12 of us including me). Apologies as hire company said its the French (travelling out via Calais) who seem to be the ogres and want to give on the spot fines! How do I tell if I am out of scope? It is my family so it not for commercial use.
ossie:
17 seater minibus
Article 13
- Provided the objectives set out in Article 1 are not
prejudiced, each Member State may grant exceptions from
Articles 5 to 9 and make such exceptions subject to individual
conditions on its own territory or, with the agreement of the
States concerned, on the territory of another Member State,
applicable to carriage by the following:(a) vehicles owned or hired, without a driver, by public
authorities to undertake carriage by road which do not
compete with private transport undertakings;i) vehicles with between 10 and 17 seats used exclusively
for the non-commercial carriage of passengers;
There is an OPTION for each EU country.
This could be a problem as many UK licence holders can drive a private 17 seater minibus with a pre 1997 D1 which has a 101 restriction (not for hire or reward) so they would not have any digi cards, tacho training etc.
I wonder what the hire company and those EU countries that have not opted for the exemption say about that ■■?
This is a [ZB] minefield
Bit of research…
I just called a local company to me (FREEWAY @ Louughborough: 01509 768297) who do private 17 seaters all the time for privare use across EU countries and they said that in the last 10+ years of doing this no-one has had any problems when stopped as long as it has been a non-commercial venture.
Perhaps it might be an idea to call other hire companies and see what they say 
ossie:
How do I tell if I am out of scope? It is my family so it not for commercial use.
Everybody will have a passport and/or driving licence, let them check surnames and addresses to prove the relationship.
You’ll also have some rental papers to prove that the bus is only hired, not owned/run by you or a bus operator.
HomoFaber:
ossie:
How do I tell if I am out of scope? It is my family so it not for commercial use.Everybody will have a passport and/or driving licence, let them check surnames and addresses to prove the relationship.
You’ll also have some rental papers to prove that the bus is only hired, not owned/run by you or a bus operator.
That would be my advice. Also if you do run into problems and they attempt to fine you don’t back down and pay them. Demand to see the ‘Chef’ and keep escalating it up the food chain, they soon back down when they realise you are not an easy touch.
Having researched all the input and advice I am certain that I am exempt.
EU Regulation No 561/2006 - Article 13 - Non-commercial carriage of passengers.
I have taken a printout of the Regulations and will argue the point if stopped!
I cannot image Mr Joe public being able to understand the 4.5 hour driving rules etc or even own a digi-card on hiring a mini bus for his own personal use.
Thanks for all your input and advice especially to ROG.
Ossie,
I don’t want to be the messenger with bad news but your journey to the Netherlands with the 17 seater will not be exempt EU drivers hours rules. As such a tachograph will need to be fitted to the vehicle (as indicated by the hire company a digital VU is fitted) and you will have to use it.
The problem is that the ‘derogations’ from the EU hours Regulation contained in Article 13 apply only to journeys wholly within an individual Member State. They are not like the ‘exemptions’ contained within Article 3 which apply throughout the European Union. It is possible for Member States to mutually recognise derogations from another Member State, but the UK doesn’t recognise any other derogations. That’s because we don’t share a land boarder (apart from Norther Ireland and Eire) with any other Member State. By the looks of one document I’ve seen; Belgium and France didn’t go for the derogation in the first place, the Netherlands did, but we don’t have an agreement with the Netherlands to recognise each others derogations.
If your journey was wholly within the UK you would be exempt both EU and Domestic drivers hours. Because you are going to another Member State then you fall into the whole EU drivers hours requirements. Unfortunately that means continuous driving periods, daily, weekly and fortnightly driving limits and daily and weekly rest. You cannot count the time you spend going out and back as rest from the usual driving job.
Exactly the same situation existed prior to the change in legislation in April 2007. You could drive around the UK to your hearts content in your 17 seat minibus. Just be prepared to spend a lot of money in France or Belgium if the Gendarmes caught up with you.
Cannot think of a particular way around the daily rest issue with the times you suggest. The only possibility is somebody with D1 on their licence gets a digi card and ‘double mans’ with you. That means you would have to commence a daily rest no later than 01:00 of the day following your 04:00 start.
geebee45:
Ossie,The problem is that the ‘derogations’ from the EU hours Regulation contained in Article 13 apply only to journeys wholly within an individual Member State. They are not like the ‘exemptions’ contained within Article 3 which apply throughout the European Union. It is possible for Member States to mutually recognise derogations from another Member State, but the UK doesn’t recognise any other derogations. That’s because we don’t share a land boarder (apart from Norther Ireland and Eire) with any other Member State. By the looks of one document I’ve seen; Belgium and France didn’t go for the derogation in the first place, the Netherlands did, but we don’t have an agreement with the Netherlands to recognise each others derogations.
If your journey was wholly within the UK you would be exempt both EU and Domestic drivers hours. Because you are going to another Member State then you fall into the whole EU drivers hours requirements. Unfortunately that means continuous driving periods, daily, weekly and fortnightly driving limits and daily and weekly rest. You cannot count the time you spend going out and back as rest from the usual driving job.
That’s a worry, I’ve been to Spain twice in my 7.5 tonner which is only used as a bike race transporter, the last time taking 10 in total (none of whom paid!!! ahem 
) to Jerez (fortunately) without being stopped in either France or Spain!!!
This Septembers trip might need a rethink!
Ross.
7.5 tonners (C1s) for PRIVATE use across the whole of the EU -
EU DRIVER REGS
Article 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods
geebee45:
Ossie,I don’t want to be the messenger with bad news but your journey to the Netherlands with the 17 seater will not be exempt EU drivers hours rules. As such a tachograph will need to be fitted to the vehicle (as indicated by the hire company a digital VU is fitted) and you will have to use it.
The problem is that the ‘derogations’ from the EU hours Regulation contained in Article 13 apply only to journeys wholly within an individual Member State. They are not like the ‘exemptions’ contained within Article 3 which apply throughout the European Union. It is possible for Member States to mutually recognise derogations from another Member State, but the UK doesn’t recognise any other derogations. That’s because we don’t share a land boarder (apart from Norther Ireland and Eire) with any other Member State. By the looks of one document I’ve seen; Belgium and France didn’t go for the derogation in the first place, the Netherlands did, but we don’t have an agreement with the Netherlands to recognise each others derogations.
OK I concede you may be right…but what would happen if I start my journey using the Digi-card from Dover (rather than earlier from home) as that is the point of exit from exemption to the regulations. Until that point no records need to be kept as my journey up to that point was wholly within the Individual Member State. There will be no previous history (on the Digi-card) as until that point I have been using UK analogue tachos at work, with sufficient rest before using the minibus.
As Rog said This is a [ZB] minefield!
That might work but I would not carry any rental agreement with the place of hire on it !!!
Or have any passengers who might let slip where the journey started from !!!
Remember - the WHOLE journey is deemed to be under EU regs so any non-recording of that journey is likely to cost you dear !!!
ROG:
That might work but I would not carry any rental agreement with the place of hire on it !!!Or have any passengers who might let slip where the journey started from !!!
Remember - the WHOLE journey is deemed to be under EU regs so any non-recording of that journey is likely to cost you dear !!!
Aggrrrr I have to carry rental agreement to prove I am entitled to drive rental vehicle…and have you ever tried getting your kids/ grandkids to keep quiet! Looks like i will have to leave party early to stay within rules. Luckily I had planned next day off so will have had 24 hours rest…
Will you have enough driving time hours and be legal to do a reduced weekly rest ■■
I am assuming that you are a mobile worker under EU regs in your normal job
ROG:
7.5 tonners (C1s) for PRIVATE use across the whole of the EU -
EU DRIVER REGSArticle 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods
Thanks for that ROG, I’ve saved the pages & I’ll print a copy and carry it with me when I next go ‘over there’ with the 7.5 tonner.
Ross.