RTC was mistaken for RDC 
- my bad and need to go to specsavers 
ROG:
RTC was mistaken for RDC
Probably. But, you might end up in Greggs or Barclays Bank seeking an eye test. 
You see Wheel Nut, your answer is different from Coffees answer but essentially going in the same direction.
My argument is that any extended rest (which I have yet to see quoted) has no legal basis because you have broken the rules by default but under the protection of Article 12.
Iām really enjoying reading the informed and reasonable replies to my questions and Iām glad you have joined in. If anybody who is taking part thinks that I am wasting their time just say so and Iāll stop asking questions.
W
Article 1
This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.
May I suggest that reducing the minimum daily rest would not be deemed safe under the intention of the regulations?
AlexWignall:
You see Wheel Nut, your answer is different from Coffees answer but essentially going in the same direction.My argument is that any extended rest (which I have yet to see quoted) has no legal basis because you have broken the rules by default but under the protection of Article 12.
Iām really enjoying reading the informed and reasonable replies to my questions and Iām glad you have joined in. If anybody who is taking part thinks that I am wasting their time just say so and Iāll stop asking questions.
W
My answers not different, it is just that he is better with words. But I agree with Neil about the terminology, it is a misnomer that there is such a thing called spreadover, that went out when Noah was getting loaded.
We used to talk about 11 hours driving in a 12.5 spreadover.
Extended rest is my name for it, hence why it was not quoted. The regulations say you must take 11 hours rest in 24hrs, however this can be reduced three times to 9hrs, but by taking a split rest, you havenāt used a reduced rest, you have had at least 12 hours rest
And there is nothing wrong with asking reasoned questions, it helps everyone learn.
AlexWignall:
My argument is that any extended rest (which I have yet to see quoted) has no legal basis because you have broken the rules by default but under the protection of Article 12.
You have broken the rule to complete the daily rest within 24 hours but that is why you invoke Article 12.
Which of these two statements is correct?
-
The driver used Article 12 because he had exceeded the daily duty limit.
-
The driver used Article 12 because he was not able to complete his required rest within the 24 hour period.
It cannot be number 1 because there is no duty limit in the regulations but it can be number two because there is a daily rest in 24 hours requirement. He is using Article 12 to cover the fact his rest period was not completed in 24 hours not because he did more than 15 hours between the end of one rest period and the start of the next.
Look at the VOSA Fixed Penalty list and see if you can find an offence for exceeding the daily duty limit. You canāt because there is no daily duty limit but you will find an offence of insufficient daily rest which carries an increasing fine depending how much the rest was short by.
A driver is stopped by VOSA at Stafford the day after he did 16 hours between shifts due to an accident on the M1 near Newport Pagnell shortly before he was going to stop for the day. He parked in Newport Pagnell, where he was intending to park, after getting past the accident They check his tacho chart for the previous day and say to him you only had 8 hours rest in the 24-hour period. He tells them about the delay and the fact he has used Article 12 to explain this. Two possible outcomes from here on.
-
They then check his chart for the current day which shows he resumed work 9 hours after finishing the previous evening. They are happy to let him continue*, he had the minimum daily rest required and his use of Article 12 gives him a derogation from Article 8 (2), that the rest must be completed within the 24-hour period, so he doesnāt get a Ā£60 FPN as above.
-
They then check his chart for the current day which shows he resumed work at the end of the 24-hour period, 8 hours after finishing the previous evening. They now issue a Ā£60 FPN, and probably park him up, because he has had insufficient daily rest and his use of Article 12 doesnāt cover this.
*Well they would have been if it wasnāt for the bald tyre on the N/S middle axle of his trailer but that is another issue and off topic for this thread.
Coffeeholic:
AlexWignall:
@ Tachograph and Coffee,My point is, that if you have exceeded your 15 hour duty limit thanks to an Article 12 type incident. You have failed to take the minimum rest that day.
No amount of rest the following day will legally compensate. Although morally and physically it would.
Iāve realised why you are confused about this. You keep talking in terms of exceeding your 15 hour duty limit but nowhere in the regulations is there a mention of a duty limit. The maximum duty we can do is only worked out by the daily rest requirements, 24-11=13 or 24-9=15.
Because you are thinking in this way you are working on the principle that Article 12 allows you to exceed the 15 hour duty limit but it doesnāt because there is no duty limit laid down in the regulations. What Article 12 does do is allow you a derogation from the requirement for the daily rest to fall within the 24-hour period. The derogation cannot be applied to something that doesnāt even appear in the regulations, duty time, so in that situation can only be applied to something that is defined in the regulations, daily rest within 24-hours.
Thanks Coffee, I think this is the best answer on the Thread to my question.
I came to the conclusion as I drove along today that if a Daily Driving Period must be bracketed by a Daily or Weekly Rest period. A Daily or Weekly rest period must be the correct length or else they wouldnāt be Daily or Weekly Rest periods.
Working on this theory, Article 12 allows for a Rest period to extended into the following day which is more important than the rest falling into the original twenty four hours (which would be impossible).
Thats pretty much what you have said in your final post so I reckon I can now see where you are all coming from.
Now that Weāve got that settled what ifā¦
W
AlexWignall:
My argument is that any extended rest (which I have yet to see quoted) has no legal basis because you have broken the rules by default but under the protection of Article 12.
Sorry if Iāve missed something but what extended rest, as far as Iām aware the only time daily rest is extended is when itās extended into a weekly rest period.
I donāt think anyone is saying that the rest should be extended, itās just taken at a slightly different time due to unforeseen circumstances, the time period in which you should take the daily rest period is being extended but the rest period itself isnāt.
In the example you gave I would argue that no rules have been broken because as long as you stick to the regulations as far as possible article 12 authorises you to deviate from articles 6 to 9, but only to the extent that it allows you to reach a safe stopping place.
The article WN quoted from is actually an EU Guidance Note, read it for yourself here
The EU guidance notes makes it clear that āthe deviation from the driving time rules must not lead to a reduction of the required breaks, daily and weekly restā.
AlexWignall:
Iām really enjoying reading the informed and reasonable replies to my questions and Iām glad you have joined in. If anybody who is taking part thinks that I am wasting their time just say so and Iāll stop asking questions.
Asking reasonable questions and putting a reasonable (all be-it wrong ) argument is never a waste of time
edit:
Youāve posted while I was typing a reply so just ignore this
Thanks Tachograph,
Just for fun Iāll ask my other example question that I had in mindā¦
A driver finishes his penultimate shift for the week in the Motorway Services and starts his legally required eleven hour rest.
Four hours into his rest he is disturbed by violent thieves who are trying to break into his cab. He fires the truck up and drives the hour to his homebase and to his mind, safety.
All this drivers final shift would of consisted of was the run in home, refuel and park up. Which he does and starts his weekly rest.
If you consider that weekly rest may not contribute to his daily rest. How would our reluctant hero complete the daily rest he cut short by seven hours at the end of his penultimate shift?
Iām not backsliding on my reply to Coffee, Iām just curious how it would work out.
W
AlexWignall:
Thanks Tachograph,Just for fun Iāll ask my other example question that I had in mindā¦
A driver finishes his penultimate shift for the week in the Motorway Services and starts his legally required eleven hour rest.
Four hours into his rest he is disturbed by violent thieves who are trying to break into his cab. He fires the truck up and drives the hour to his homebase and to his mind, safety.
All this drivers final shift would of consisted of was the run in home, refuel and park up. Which he does and starts his weekly rest.
If you consider that weekly rest may not contribute to his daily rest. How would our reluctant hero complete the daily rest he cut short by seven hours at the end of his penultimate shift?
Iām not backsliding on my reply to Coffee, Iām just curious how it would work out.
W
You may be able to use another guidance note, this time Number 3.
Issue: Ordering the interruption of a break or daily or weekly rest in order to move a vehicle
forward at a terminal, at parking places or at border areas.
Article: 4(d) and (f) of Regulation (EC) No 561/2006
Approach to be followed: Generally, during a daily or weekly rest a driver should be able to
dispose freely of his/her time and should therefore not be obliged to stay in reach of his/her vehicle.In general, interrupting a break, daily or weekly rest is an infringement (unless the āferry ruleā applies ā Article 9(1)). However, at a terminal or a parking place there may occur a sudden abnormal situation or an emergency where a vehicle needs to be moved.
At a terminal there is usually a driver (terminal employee) who moves vehicles, if necessary.If that is not the case and the movement of the vehicle becomes inevitable due to
extraordinary circumstances, the driver may interrupt his/her rest only upon the demand of a competent authority or terminal official who are authorised to order vehicleās movements. In other places (e.g. at parking places, at border crossings and in cases of emergency), if there are objective emergency reasons for which the vehicle must be moved or if the police or another authority (e.g.: fireman, road administration authorities, customs officer, etc.) give an order to move a vehicle, the driver must interrupt his/her break or rest for a few minutes and in that case should not be prosecuted.If such a necessity arises Member States enforcers must grant some tolerance following an
individual situation assessment. Such an interruption of a driverās rest or break must be recorded manually by the driver and should, if possible, be authenticated by the competent authority that ordered the driver to move the vehicle.
Where do you get those very useful guidance notes from Wheel Nut? It answers my question perfectly.
Would it not be the case that the driver and his boss could be considered to benifit from the emergency?
W
AlexWignall:
Where do you get those very useful guidance notes from Wheel Nut? It answers my question perfectly.Would it not be the case that the driver and his boss could be considered to benifit from the emergency?
W
Just for you I will let you into the secret, but donāt tell everyone
Wheel Nut:
AlexWignall:
Where do you get those very useful guidance notes from Wheel Nut? It answers my question perfectly.Would it not be the case that the driver and his boss could be considered to benifit from the emergency?
W
Just for you I will let you into the secret, but donāt tell everyone
Ah very good,
It would spoil the fun of the questions I think up if I checked the answers on there all the time.
W