Diesel, LNG, electric or hydrogen powered trucks?

[pv83]

Carryfast:
The costs of diesel fuel and all the stuff needed to clean up the emissions long ago exceeded the fuel consumption advantage over spark ignition and LPG fuelled ICE which also provides the option of LNG or Hydrogen.
Battery electric won’t cut it at 40-44t gross max let alone plus the costs of batteries and 50p kWh to charge them + fuel duty and 20% VAT.

Hyzon claims they have a tractor unit capable for up to 70t though… how long would that battery survive on a day’s work and how long would it take to fully re-charge it?

hyzonmotors.com/vehicles/hyzon-hymax-series

[pv83]

grumpy old man:

pv83:
Some of you might have witnessed how the industry has changed over the years, and more importantly in this case, how the engines providing the traction have changed over the years.

From steam power, to natural aspirated diesel engines, to turbo charged and intercooled engines to electric controlled injection systems that lead to the introduction of Euro 1 and upwards (Euro 4 saw the introduction of Ad-Blue systems), we’re now working with Euro 6 engines, with Euro 7 on it’s way… but what comes after that I wonder?

What’s your view on electric, hydrogen or LNG? Is that really what we’ll going to have under the bonnet in a few years time?

I’m currently on my way to Italy, delivering a electric powered Volvo FH (it’s on my lowloader by the way), and I just can’t see it being a proper alternative for the good old diesel engine, I always thought hydrogen was a better alternative, but I’m pretty sure we haven’t seen the last of the diesel engine just yet.

Thoughts anyone?

Hydrogen is the way to go. But as stated, there’s a hell of a long way to go before the diesel engine finishes. It is said that there is more oil still in the ground/undiscovered than has been extracted so far, Coal ■■ UK is sitting on the top of 100 years supply of coal.

I’m pretty sure we’ll still be working with diesel engines in the coming 20 odd years Grumpy, as you say, there are still some oilfields left to discover.

[pv83]

ramone:
The National Grid keep offering incentives for people not to use electricity at peak times , does this indicate that we can’t produce enough electricity now so if all vehicles were electric where would we be.

The main problem in most European countries Ramone, the electricity net isn’t designed to cope with so many vehicles charging at the same time.

[pv83]

lancpudn:

ERF-Continental:
On goods transports…you’re aiming on…we are to early to judge as governments and several (inter-)national facilities have
quite a backlog and they don’t know the outcome themselves…I myself would hould my own breath (investments) till Euro 10?

Euro 7 is expected to be the last iteration when it’s implemented in 2025, The new Euro 7 emission standards for new heavy duty trucks which will come into effect in July 2027 is expected to be announced next month as to how strict they will be for trucks/buses etc. Daimler trucks has announced an end to development of combustion engines for trucks & zero emission trucks will account for 60% of total sales in 2030, Scania have announced 50% of their truck sales will be battery electric in 2030, MAN aims for 60% of urban & regional trucks & 40% of long haul trucks by 2030, Renault aims to be 35% battery electric by then. dieselnet.com/news/2022/11eu.php
transportenvironment.org/ch … standards/

Those are quite the claims they’re making! Not entirely sure if they’re actually going to deliver on that one, as it’s only seven years from now.

I’m with ERF Continental, it’s more likely that we’ll see a Euro 8 and 9 version of the diesel engine by then.

[dennis_javelin]

pv83:

Punchy Dan:
My money is on the hydrogen,I’d sooner have a horse on cart than electric.

My thoughts exactly Dan!

Some 25 years ago when I training to become a mechanic, hydrogen was already being discussed as an alternative for combustion engines, all of a sudden electric appeared and seems to be pushed by a lot of people these days though…

The miniaturisation of batteries had given a lot of people the hope that electric power would be the way forward but they just don’t have the range - or certainly don’t at the moment. The proliferation of non-fossil generated electricity has introduced the hope that hydrogen will be the way forward but as I said in a previous post the amount of electricity needed is enormous. Hence the reason JCB have done a £1.5 billion deal with an Australian hydrogen producer.

[pv83]

dave docwra:
I think we may be looking at fuel alternatives as we move goods at the moment,
I think the whole industry will change in a very short time & it will be towards
electric vehicles, there will be some that will have to use some form of alternative
possibly hydrogen or even back to LPG.

I can see a lot of inter depot trunking along with local drop off areas, where local vehicles
would complete the delivery could be the norm, trunk vehicles could be hot swapped on
trunk routes, a lot of the warehouses that are used these days have massive roof space
to allow for solar panels, also natural gas generators can be used on site with cleaner
enviromental exhaust output which would take some strain off the grid.

I was watching a video the other day where the truck battery pack could be swapped in
fifteen minutes which could possibly allow trunk vehicles to do return journeys.

Cheers for your thoughts Dave, I think we’ll have a mix of either diesel and hydrogen powered vehicles or diesel and electric battery powered vehicles. I just can’t see the diesel engine exiting stage left if you what I mean.

[pv83]

Dennis Javelin:

pv83:

Punchy Dan:
My money is on the hydrogen,I’d sooner have a horse on cart than electric.

My thoughts exactly Dan!

Some 25 years ago when I training to become a mechanic, hydrogen was already being discussed as an alternative for combustion engines, all of a sudden electric appeared and seems to be pushed by a lot of people these days though…

The miniaturisation of batteries had given a lot of people the hope that electric power would be the way forward but they just don’t have the range - or certainly don’t at the moment. The proliferation of non-fossil generated electricity has introduced the hope that hydrogen will be the way forward but as I said in a previous post the amount of electricity needed is enormous. Hence the reason JCB have done a £1.5 billion deal with an Australian hydrogen producer.

independent.co.uk/climate-c … 48580.html

[carryfast]

Dennis Javelin:

pv83:

Punchy Dan:
My money is on the hydrogen,I’d sooner have a horse on cart than electric.

My thoughts exactly Dan!

Some 25 years ago when I training to become a mechanic, hydrogen was already being discussed as an alternative for combustion engines, all of a sudden electric appeared and seems to be pushed by a lot of people these days though…

The miniaturisation of batteries had given a lot of people the hope that electric power would be the way forward but they just don’t have the range - or certainly don’t at the moment. The proliferation of non-fossil generated electricity has introduced the hope that hydrogen will be the way forward but as I said in a previous post the amount of electricity needed is enormous. Hence the reason JCB have done a £1.5 billion deal with an Australian hydrogen producer.

It’s more an issue of re charging time not range.
Obviously that time increases pro rata with battery capacity/range.
Hydrogen fuelled ICE is probably superior.
But like the massive increase in electric generation it’s just replacing banevolent CO2 emmissions with the just about best greenhouse gas known to man in the form of water vapour.

[oiltreader]

pv83:

dave docwra:
I think we may be looking at fuel alternatives as we move goods at the moment,
I think the whole industry will change in a very short time & it will be towards
electric vehicles, there will be some that will have to use some form of alternative
possibly hydrogen or even back to LPG.

I can see a lot of inter depot trunking along with local drop off areas, where local vehicles
would complete the delivery could be the norm, trunk vehicles could be hot swapped on
trunk routes, a lot of the warehouses that are used these days have massive roof space
to allow for solar panels, also natural gas generators can be used on site with cleaner
enviromental exhaust output which would take some strain off the grid.

I was watching a video the other day where the truck battery pack could be swapped in
fifteen minutes which could possibly allow trunk vehicles to do return journeys.

Cheers for your thoughts Dave, I think we’ll have a mix of either diesel and hydrogen powered vehicles or diesel and electric battery powered vehicles. I just can’t see the diesel engine exiting stage left if you what I mean.

“or diesel and electric battery powered vehicles”
Yes Patrick a sensible option during this transition period with Scania and Daf already in the game, Electric powered in LEZs and inter city diesel regenerating of the battery pack
daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alte … c-vehicles
scania.com/group/en/home/pr … truck.html
In time and IMHO there will be a way to convert the abundant fossil and mineral fuels cleanly which apart from wind, wave and solar are and will be needed for the increased demand for electricity.
Oily

[lancpudn]

pv83:

lancpudn:

ERF-Continental:
On goods transports…you’re aiming on…we are to early to judge as governments and several (inter-)national facilities have
quite a backlog and they don’t know the outcome themselves…I myself would hould my own breath (investments) till Euro 10?

Euro 7 is expected to be the last iteration when it’s implemented in 2025, The new Euro 7 emission standards for new heavy duty trucks which will come into effect in July 2027 is expected to be announced next month as to how strict they will be for trucks/buses etc. Daimler trucks has announced an end to development of combustion engines for trucks & zero emission trucks will account for 60% of total sales in 2030, Scania have announced 50% of their truck sales will be battery electric in 2030, MAN aims for 60% of urban & regional trucks & 40% of long haul trucks by 2030, Renault aims to be 35% battery electric by then. dieselnet.com/news/2022/11eu.php
transportenvironment.org/ch … standards/

Those are quite the claims they’re making! Not entirely sure if they’re actually going to deliver on that one, as it’s only seven years from now.

I’m with ERF Continental, it’s more likely that we’ll see a Euro 8 and 9 version of the diesel engine by then.

The Euro 7 emission standard will see all light & heavy duty road freight vehicles included in the emission standard for the first time ever when implemented in July 2025.
The financial penalties for missing emission limits are enormous for truck manufacturers, It’s currently set at in the Commission proposal. (New updated emission standards announcement is due in February as I mentioned in my other post) The excess emission premium for the period 2025 to 2029 is set at €4,250/g CO2/tkm), instead of €6,800 in the Commission proposal. From 2030, the excess emission premium is set at €6 800/g CO2/tkm.
By 2025 truck emissions have to be cleaner by 15% from today & 30% cleaner by 2030.
europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ … S_BRI(2018628268_EN.pdf

Truck manufacturers are well behind where they need to be for the Euro 7 emission standard & most still don’t meet the Euro 6 emission standard. transportenvironment.org/di … -the-road/

[zac_a]

pv83:
I’m pretty sure we’ll still be working with diesel engines in the coming 20 odd years Grumpy, as you say, there are still some oilfields left to discover.

The oilfields aren’t the issue, it’s (i)the environment and (ii)costs. As the number of petrol and diesel vehicles decrease, the price of the fuel will increase so hydrocarbon ICE’s will be priced out of the market.

For me hydrogen is the way forward, not EVs, but the big sticking point is the knee-jerk group-think amongst politicians and the media, plus EVs have a big industry lobby behind them, driving government policy without considering the long-term consequences.

EVs need lithium batteries (LBs) there are supply issues with the raw ingredients (lithium, cobalt, copper and nickel) as demand goes up, so will the prices
Then there are issues with the recycling of LBs. To transport them, each needs to be in a separate plastic bag - very labour-intensive (jobs for the dole wallahs?). But, there’s a limited number of specialist LB recycling sites (two at the last count TTBOMK).

LBs are a lot more hazardous than a lot of people realise, especially the politicians. LBs have multiple hazards, they can burn or explode when damaged, contents are corrosive when they leak, especially in reactions with acids.

LB fires are VERY hard to extinguish, you need the new Lith-ex extinguishers, even the trusty Dry Powder FEs don’t do a good enough job.

The thermal runaway of an LB is tremendously dangerous and happens in the blink of an eye, there’s at least one ship that was sunk because of what is believed to be an LB fire in the cargo area (MV Felicity Ace) and more than one cargo aircraft has been brought down by an LB fire, check out the picture, hard to image that pile of scrap was once a 747
flyingmag.com/news-ups-747- … ry-danger/

[lancpudn]

HVS (Hydrogen vehicle systems) are developing a autonomous hydrogen HGV “The firm’s Hub2Hub consortium will create the tractor unit, which will begin vehicles trials in 2024, in partnership with UK retailer Asda.”
“The first hydrogen-electric HGV prototype will be fitted with a driver’s cab and tested on the road in autonomous operation, using the Fusion Processing’s Automated Drive System, CAVStar, with a human safety driver at the wheel. A second prototype will have the driver’s cab removed and replaced by an aerodynamic fairing.” commercialfleet.org/news/tr … -with-asda

[fodenway]

lancpudn:
HVS (Hydrogen vehicle systems) are developing a autonomous hydrogen HGV “The firm’s Hub2Hub consortium will create the tractor unit, which will begin vehicles trials in 2024, in partnership with UK retailer Asda.”
“The first hydrogen-electric HGV prototype will be fitted with a driver’s cab and tested on the road in autonomous operation, using the Fusion Processing’s Automated Drive System, CAVStar, with a human safety driver at the wheel. A second prototype will have the driver’s cab removed and replaced by an aerodynamic fairing.” commercialfleet.org/news/tr … -with-asda

Sounds like a recipe for disaster - two relatively untested technologies together in the same vehicle, let loose on public roads. The possibilities are endless, especially when prototype 2 comes along.

[lancpudn]

@Lancpudn The Euro 7 emission standard will see all light & heavy duty road freight vehicles included in the emission standard for the first time ever when implemented in July 2025.
The financial penalties for missing emission limits are enormous for truck manufacturers, It’s currently set at in the Commission proposal. (New updated emission standards announcement is due in February as I mentioned in my other post) The excess emission premium for the period 2025 to 2029 is set at €4,250/g CO2/tkm), instead of €6,800 in the Commission proposal. From 2030, the excess emission premium is set at €6 800/g CO2/tkm.
By 2025 truck emissions have to be cleaner by 15% from today & 30% cleaner by 2030.
europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ … S_BRI(2018)628268_EN.pdf

Truck manufacturers are well behind where they need to be for the Euro 7 emission standard & most still don’t meet the Euro 6 emission standard. transportenvironment.org/di … -the-road/

Looks like the EU’s phase out of new trucks by 2035 has been put back to 2040 same as the UK which means they will still be able to register them on public roads until 2040 , Announcement on the 14th February. electrive.com/2023/02/02/eu … fore-2040/

[remy]

equipmentworld.com/alternat … ion-engine

Looks like JCB are on the right track then ?

[eddie_heaton]

lancpudn:
@Lancpudn The Euro 7 emission standard will see all light & heavy duty road freight vehicles included in the emission standard for the first time ever when implemented in July 2025.
The financial penalties for missing emission limits are enormous for truck manufacturers, It’s currently set at in the Commission proposal. (New updated emission standards announcement is due in February as I mentioned in my other post) The excess emission premium for the period 2025 to 2029 is set at €4,250/g CO2/tkm), instead of €6,800 in the Commission proposal. From 2030, the excess emission premium is set at €6 800/g CO2/tkm.
By 2025 truck emissions have to be cleaner by 15% from today & 30% cleaner by 2030.
europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ … S_BRI(2018)628268_EN.pdf

Meanwhile … I would imagine that as far as most of the under-developed countries on this beleaguered planet of ours are concerned , it will be merely a case of “ business as usual for the foreseeable future “ .

[erf-ngc-european]

Eddie Heaton:

lancpudn:
@Lancpudn The Euro 7 emission standard will see all light & heavy duty road freight vehicles included in the emission standard for the first time ever when implemented in July 2025.
The financial penalties for missing emission limits are enormous for truck manufacturers, It’s currently set at in the Commission proposal. (New updated emission standards announcement is due in February as I mentioned in my other post) The excess emission premium for the period 2025 to 2029 is set at €4,250/g CO2/tkm), instead of €6,800 in the Commission proposal. From 2030, the excess emission premium is set at €6 800/g CO2/tkm.
By 2025 truck emissions have to be cleaner by 15% from today & 30% cleaner by 2030.
europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ … S_BRI(2018)628268_EN.pdf

Meanwhile … I would imagine that as far as most of the under-developed countries on this beleaguered planet of ours are concerned , it will be merely a case of “ business as usual for the foreseeable future “ .

Yep. We in UK represent about 1% of the world’s population. ■■■■■■■ in the wind.

[carryfast]

remy:
https://www.equipmentworld.com/alternative-power/article/15305712/jcb-unveils-hydrogen-combustion-engine

Looks like JCB are on the right track then ?

LNG/LPG/Hydrogen fuelled ICE is the obvious solution to the ‘emissions’ problem.
The downside is still laughable dependence on electric in the case of hydrogen manufacture on a net loss basis at around £1 per kWh already well over 50p per kWh.All eventually + fuel tax.

[zac_a]

I’m happy for us to be ■■■■■■■ into the wind if it means me and my children have cleaner air to breathe than these third world countries.
iqair.com/in-en/world-most- … -countries

[lancpudn]

ERF-NGC-European:

Eddie Heaton:

lancpudn:
@Lancpudn The Euro 7 emission standard will see all light & heavy duty road freight vehicles included in the emission standard for the first time ever when implemented in July 2025.
The financial penalties for missing emission limits are enormous for truck manufacturers, It’s currently set at in the Commission proposal. (New updated emission standards announcement is due in February as I mentioned in my other post) The excess emission premium for the period 2025 to 2029 is set at €4,250/g CO2/tkm), instead of €6,800 in the Commission proposal. From 2030, the excess emission premium is set at €6 800/g CO2/tkm.
By 2025 truck emissions have to be cleaner by 15% from today & 30% cleaner by 2030.
europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ … S_BRI(2018)628268_EN.pdf

Meanwhile … I would imagine that as far as most of the under-developed countries on this beleaguered planet of ours are concerned , it will be merely a case of “ business as usual for the foreseeable future “ .

Yep. We in UK represent about 1% of the world’s population. ■■■■■■■ in the wind.

Yeah You’d think it was public enemy number 1 here. There’s more to come in 2027 when new carbon taxes will be levied on Diesel, Petrol & Natural gas for all road transport & buildings stemming from burning fossil fuels trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewto … 5&t=173883