Definition of undertaking - Official Line

Like every driver here I have an opinion on what constitutes an undertake and what doesn’t, what is fair game and what isn’t.

So Drivers, please control yourself, I don’t want this topic full of your opinions, cos we all got one eh, what I would really like is an official “real” world definition from either a serving / ex police officer or a HTO type person, so we can all have a better chance of staying the right side of the law.

Smart arses who want to paraphrase the highway code move along please, real world examples are much more in line with today’s driving and lack of lane discipline, want to know what will get you in trouble and what won’t.

I know such people exist amoung these forums, or at least claim to, so thets hear it please guys.

heavy traffic, is one example,
some one posted a pic up in another thread about the A14 and most people stay in the middle lane…

i have undertaken a couple of time’s, mainly due not being in the mood to ■■■■ about with “them” and their silly game’s… and wether it is an overtake or an undertake, i get it over and done with it as quickly as possable…

i was told by a police officer that to be classed as undertaking, it was to pass a vehicle on the near side to gain advantage, so you couldn’t come up behind him in say the second lane and then pull into lane one undertake and then pull out into lane 2 again, but if you were already in lane 1 and passed the vehicle on the near side but stayed in lane 1 then that was ok, thats the way the police look at it, i have even pass police cars on the M25 like that and have never been pulled :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:

I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

The only link you require is this one.

legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/198 … /3/enacted

Undertaking is not in itself an offence! It was removed from the statute books in 1972. Even then, the offence was called “overtaking in the nearside lane”

I also read that “Undertaking” and then immediately moving back to the outside lane maybe considered “Dangerous Driving”

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Formula One rules prevent a car moving across the track and then back again as a blocking manoeuvre punishable with a penalty :stuck_out_tongue:

Saaamon:
I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

That is all well and good until you come across some coffin dodger in lane 2 doing less than the speed limit who refuses to move over…

Anyway guys, please restrain yourself, rumours, past experience, MMTM all of that stuff is irrelevant here, see if we can find a proper official line of this, because that line can so often be blurred by the road conditions which vary so drastically ? No ?

Saaamon:
I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

You are of course talking about some utopia where everybody are masters in lane discipline and don’t hang about in the middle lane when lane 1 is clear :wink:

Just drive on the left!!! If someone happens do be going slower to your right just smile on your way by!!

muckles:

Saaamon:
I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

You are of course talking about some utopia where everybody are masters in lane discipline and don’t hang about in the middle lane when lane 1 is clear :wink:

That genuinely made me laugh lol.

Saaamon:
I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

and what do you do when you are driving in lane 1 doing the speed limit
and then come up to someone already in the right lane
who is driving slower than you

wildfire:
i was told by a police officer that to be classed as undertaking, it was to pass a vehicle on the near side to gain advantage, so you couldn’t come up behind him in say the second lane and then pull into lane one undertake and then pull out into lane 2 again, but if you were already in lane 1 and passed the vehicle on the near side but stayed in lane 1 then that was ok, thats the way the police look at it, i have even pass police cars on the M25 like that and have never been pulled :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:

This is how it works with the police in the real world :slight_smile:

zebadee:

wildfire:
i was told by a police officer that to be classed as undertaking, it was to pass a vehicle on the near side to gain advantage, so you couldn’t come up behind him in say the second lane and then pull into lane one undertake and then pull out into lane 2 again, but if you were already in lane 1 and passed the vehicle on the near side but stayed in lane 1 then that was ok, thats the way the police look at it, i have even pass police cars on the M25 like that and have never been pulled :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:

This is how it works with the police in the real world :slight_smile:

This is how I play the game as well and never had any problems, next time I get the chance I will endeavour to get an official take from the horses mouth however.

There was a court case on this back in the 80’s, as you know you can overtake on the inside when traffic is queing on the right, this traffic does not have to be stationary, the judge ruled and it was a judge, that only one vehicle constituted a que and the lorry driver was committing no offence, I have on one occasion on the M6 many years ago been waved up the inside of a coffin dodger by a police M/C cop, who then proceeded to pull him over. I don’t know if any of this would stand up in court nowdays.

Dieseldog66:
There was a court case on this back in the 80’s, as you know you can overtake on the inside when traffic is queing on the right, this traffic does not have to be stationary, the judge ruled and it was a judge, that only one vehicle constituted a que and the lorry driver was committing no offence, I have on one occasion on the M6 many years ago been waved up the inside of a coffin dodger by a police M/C cop, who then proceeded to pull him over. I don’t know if any of this would stand up in court nowdays.

From what I understand this is how a lot of law is refined and clarified, so if you were pulled and taken to court you could use this case as your defence. You just have to know what case it was though and hope there hasn’t been a subsequent judgement overturning it. :laughing:

so basicly on a 3 lane motorway if i sit in lane 2 no one can over/under take me to gain advantage by then pulling into lane 2.
but if you undertake me and shoot off 20 miles in lane 1 leaving me in lane 2 still that’s legal…hope so cos that is what i do all the time ,especially round brum where after all the hassle we have 4 yes 4 lanes but not many peeps want/know they can use them. :unamused: it’s ok just means me an a few others have “our own lane clear” :smiley:

wildfire:
i was told by a police officer that to be classed as undertaking, it was to pass a vehicle on the near side to gain advantage, so you couldn’t come up behind him in say the second lane and then pull into lane one undertake and then pull out into lane 2 again, but if you were already in lane 1 and passed the vehicle on the near side but stayed in lane 1 then that was ok, thats the way the police look at it, i have even pass police cars on the M25 like that and have never been pulled :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:

^This^ is my interpretation of it :wink:

Phantom Mark:

Saaamon:
I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

That is all well and good until you come across some coffin dodger in lane 2 doing less than the speed limit who refuses to move over…

Anyway guys, please restrain yourself, rumours, past experience, MMTM all of that stuff is irrelevant here, see if we can find a proper official line of this, because that line can so often be blurred by the road conditions which vary so drastically ? No ?

Every situation is different and different coppers will interpret what you do slightly differently. Incidentally, I have a mate that advises the police on what they can and can’t reasonably expect a prosecution on for RTC’s involvong driving offences…a lot of police (though generally they mean well and you can see exactly what they’re getting at) don’t understand the law that well. i.e. you’d think a prosecution would be likely but it isn’t always the case.

In short, I’m not sure that there is an answer that you could guarantee would apply to all possible scenarios. Possible there is in theory but that’s not much use as an answer! :slight_smile: You answered it yourself here:

Anyway guys, please restrain yourself, rumours, past experience, MMTM all of that stuff is irrelevant here, see if we can find a proper official line of this, because that line can so often be blurred by the road conditions which vary so drastically ? No ?

Well yes, I understand what you mean, but like most other things where the line is blurred there is often common grounds of accepted and ignored and then definately being busted, better understanding that common ground would be useful.

I think by and large we all do a similar thing (now there’s a first huh :slight_smile: ) seemingly without bother from the law, so I guess that is as close to acceptable as we can understand unless someone with a deeper insight can actually clarify, doesn’t sadly look like that will happen tho…

muckles:

Dieseldog66:
There was a court case on this back in the 80’s, as you know you can overtake on the inside when traffic is queing on the right, this traffic does not have to be stationary, the judge ruled and it was a judge, that only one vehicle constituted a que and the lorry driver was committing no offence, I have on one occasion on the M6 many years ago been waved up the inside of a coffin dodger by a police M/C cop, who then proceeded to pull him over. I don’t know if any of this would stand up in court nowdays.

From what I understand this is how a lot of law is refined and clarified, so if you were pulled and taken to court you could use this case as your defence. You just have to know what case it was though and hope there hasn’t been a subsequent judgement overturning it. :laughing:

As you rightly say, a lot of law is case law, refined and clarified in the courts. The UK legal system is based on binding precedent - cases in the senior courts bind inferior courts.

There are ways of researching case law, including which cases are still good law (i.e. they have not been overruled or brought into doubt by subsequent cases). As Wheel Nut has said, there is no specific offence of undertaking - it would come under sections 3 and 3ZA of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991 and Road Safety Act 2006:

3 Careless, and inconsiderate, driving

If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place, he is guilty of an offence.

3ZA Meaning of careless, or inconsiderate, driving

(1) This section has effect for the purposes of sections 2B and 3 above and section 3A below.

(2) A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.

(3) In determining for the purposes of subsection (2) above what would be expected of a careful and competent driver in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.

(4) A person is to be regarded as driving without reasonable consideration for other persons only if those persons are inconvenienced by his driving.

This offence would be charged either as “driving on a road without due care or attention” or “driving on a road without reasonable consideration for other motorists”. The penalty on summary conviction (i.e. before a magistrates’ court) is a fine not exceeding level 5 (currently £5000) and between 3 and 9 penalty points. The court also has the power to order disqualification.

A trial before a magistrates’ court cannot create binding precedent or persuasive authority (persuasive authority is a decision that does not bind a future court as to the result but strongly indicates the way the matter should be decided).

Only appeals following proceedings in the magistrates’ court, which are relatively rare, can set precedent. These appeals can be via one of two routes.

A defendant who pleaded not guilty but was nevertheless convicted can appeal to the Crown Court on any basis whatsoever (point of law, point of fact or against sentence only). A Crown Court case is persuasive authority for Crown Courts and magistrates’ courts only, but very few Crown Court cases attract the interest of the law reports meaning these cases are unlikely to be discovered as possible authority for a future case.

Alternatively, the prosecutor or defendant can appeal to the Queen’s Bench Division of the High Court. This appeal can directly follow the magistrates’ court case or a Crown Court appeal. Such an appeal can only be on a point of law - they proceed ‘by case stated’, with the finding of facts from the earlier trial being taken as the definitive view of the facts. No witnesses are called.

A Divisional Court appeal is rare (about 100 per year), but these appeals are the most common way that precedent in connection with summary offences is established, as Divisional Court cases bind both the Crown Court and magistrates’ courts, also they usually bind the Divisional Court itself.

With the limited number of Divisional Court appeals and the current law in this area only operating since 1 July 1992 (which does not necessarily invalidate earlier case law but means it has to be treated with caution), it is not surprising that I failed to find any binding precedent on undertaking in the case law searches I made. I don’t have access to the standard specialist reference works on road traffic law, though I did check the road traffic sections of some general legal reference sources. It appears that the best guide we have to the law is section 3ZA, which came fully into operation from 18 August 2008:

  • If the undertaking falls below the standard of a “careful and competent driver” bearing in mind both those circumstances that the hypothetical careful and competent driver could have been expected to know and those circumstances the accused knew of, it’s driving without due care and attention. Merely falling short of what the Highway Code demands does not mean an offence has been committed - careless driving has to be assessed on the facts.
  • If the undertaking caused inconvenience to other road users, it’s driving without reasonable consideration for other road users.

The important thing to remember is that these offences have to be established beyond reasonable doubt on the facts, which will differ in every case.

An allied consideration is that these offences cannot currently be dealt with by fixed penalty, though the Government has hinted that it may allow the police to issue endorsable fixed penalties for careless driving. A police officer may well decide it is not worth the hassle of reporting an undertaker for consideration of prosecution. If the police officer does report the alleged offence, the Crown Prosecution Service may decide that proceeding with a prosecution is not in the public interest.

Police officers are allowed a considerable amount of discretion in these matters, though the exercise of this discretion does not create any sort of precedent. You can carry out a manoeuvre once and be let off - but that does not mean you would be let off in the future in the same circumstances

Overall, I’d say it is unlikely that you would be prosecuted merely for undertaking. However, if that undertaking falls well short of the expected standard of driving, for example if it causes an accident, a prosecution is more likely. Undertaking may also be an excuse for the police to stop you, and if they find evidence of other offences (no insurance, driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence etc.), it is likely that careless driving will be amongst the list of alleged offences reported for consideration of prosecution.

If death results from an undertake, this may well be dealt with via one of the suite of more serious offences added to the Road Traffic Act 1988 by the Road Traffic Act 1991 and Road Safety Act 2006:

  • s. 2B - causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving
  • s. 3A - causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs
  • s. 3ZA - causing death by driving when unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured (this one does not require any carelessness)

It may also be that the driving is dangerous rather than careless, in which case the offence would be s. 1 causing death by dangerous driving. If dangerous driving is alleged (with or without death involved), the relevant careless driving charge is often charged as an alternate, allowing a finding that the driving was careless but not dangerous.

One of the few pieces of case law on overtaking to make it into the references I checked is Carryfast Ltd v Hack [1981] RTR 464, which established a driver overtaking animals should give them adequate clearance. A horse frisked when a van got close, leaving the driver with no alternative to swerve into a lane of oncoming traffic causing a collision between the van and an oncoming lorry. The court ruled that a horse frisking was a foreseeable event and that the approaching van driver should have stopped if he did not have enough room to overtake.

Should I really be encouraging Carryfast?

Phantom Mark:

Saaamon:
I stay in lane 1 doing the speed limit until i come up behind someone then move to the right lane and move back when i’ve passed them. Simple stuff really…

That is all well and good until you come across some coffin dodger in lane 2 doing less than the speed limit who refuses to move over…

Potentially both parties commit the offence I mentioned in my longer reply in this thread

The driver in lane 2 seems more likely to have committed the offence of driving on a road without reasonable consideration for other motorists than you do of committing the offence of driving on a road without due care or attention (i.e. at a standard below that of a careful and competent driver), but that is no defence.

These are so-called negligence offences - you are guilty if you fail to maintain the expected standard. The prosecution does not need to demonstrate that you acted with particular intent or recklessness as to the consequences of your actions.

If you drove below the standard of a careful and competent driver (assessed in all the circumstances), then you are guilty. “In all the circumstances” makes straightforward guidelines impossible.

Undertaking is a bad idea if there is an alternative, as drivers do not necessarily expect to be overtaken on the nearside. Any driver inattentive or wilful enough to stay unnecessarily in the middle lane may well not be taking proper observation on what is happening behind him to his nearside. This is especially so if the driver is hanging on to the wheel for grim death, paralysed by fear. Why is it that these terrified drivers so often want to get themselves into lane 2 and stick there - they’d be better either staying in lane 1 or getting professional help so that they are confident in dual carriageway and motorway conditions.

In ideal circumstances, you overtake on the offside - which potentially means travelling all the way from lane 1 to lane 3 and back again. However, traffic conditions may preclude this and this manoeuvre is illegal if you are driving a speed-limited LGV on a three-lane carriageway.

If:* you make a full assessment of the traffic around you before acting

  • you cannot reasonably overtake on the offside
  • remaining behind the slower traffic to your offside is unreasonable (for example, you are gaining on him when already in an inside lane)
  • you maintain careful observation around your vehicle throughout, and
  • you move briskly past on the inside once committed to overtake
    then I cannot see your driving being regarded as below the standard of a competent and careful driver, which means you commit no offence. However, there is no absolutely safe undertake, practically or legally.

As soon as you depart from one or more of these points, you run the risk of conviction. If you were driving a car in quiet conditions and simply couldn’t be bothered to move to the offside to overtake, you could be convicted. Deliberately weaving to the inside makes you especially likely to conviction - if you are seen and if the police can be bothered to initiate proceedings, that is.

Edit: corrected the paragraph that is in italics (I must have been tired last night).