DEDICATED TRUCKERS UNION?

[caledoniandream]

No you haven’t give me an answer, on the question, what improvement have the union archieved since the miner strikes?

Your answers are like a shop assistant:
SA: good afternoon sir, can I help you?
C: I would like a pack of tea!
SA: what tea would you like?
C: are there different kinds?
SA: oh yes sir, green tea, black tea, lemon tea, orange tea, Yorkshire blend, Ceylon tea, Earl grey tea, Darjeeling tea, breakfast tea.
C: please can I have the Breakfast Tea?
SA: we have no breakfast tea
C: can I have than the lemon tea please?
SA: we have no lemon tea
C: what kind of ■■■■■■■ tea do you have than■■?
SA: we have no tea!

[carryfast]

caledoniandream:
No you haven’t give me an answer, on the question, what improvement have the union archieved since the miner strikes?

Your answers are like a shop assistant:
SA: good afternoon sir, can I help you?
C: I would like a pack of tea!
SA: what tea would you like?
C: are there different kinds?
SA: oh yes sir, green tea, black tea, lemon tea, orange tea, Yorkshire blend, Ceylon tea, Earl grey tea, Darjeeling tea, breakfast tea.
C: please can I have the Breakfast Tea?
SA: we have no breakfast tea
C: can I have than the lemon tea please?
SA: we have no lemon tea
C: what kind of [zb] tea do you have than■■?
SA: we have no tea!

How could the NUM or any other union make any further improvements to the wages,terms and conditions of their members when Wilson and Callaghan went for the idea of wage restraint,thereby stitching the miners (and the rest of the unions) up after winning the 1974 election that the successful 1973 miners’ strike created,and then Thatcher had removed the power of the unions by creating a climate de industrialisation and unemployment and therefore loss of membership in employment,an inbalance in the labour market in favour of the employers,and anti union legislation,all of which removed the unions’ power base and then decided to close the mining industry down.

You’re answers are like a Doctor.

Doctor- good afternoon what’s the problem.

Patient- I’m starving and lost weight I’m now down to 7 stone.

Doctor- why’s that then.

Patient- zb’d if I know but it might be because I haven’t been able to afford a decent meal for ages.

Doctor- why’s that.

Patient- Well it all started when the guvnor stopped any further wage rises but prices haven’t stopped rising since then so it’s a case of go without heat and/or lose the house or go without food.

Doctor-Well it’s obviously your own fault because we all have to make the right choices in life.

Patient- thanks for your advice I knew that I was doing something wrong.

Doctor- By the way have you thought about asking your guvnor for a wage rise so that you can afford to eat enough as well as pay for your mortgage and heating bills.

Patient-The union did that and it worked for years until the guvnor said that either we agree to work with no further rises and work twice as hard or he’d shut the zb place down.

[kr79]

So it was the labour party that screwed the British working class in the 70s. Then Blair doubly screwed us over with mass immigration and the human rights charter.
And all these do gooders blame Thatcher for everything.

[spacemonkeypg]

Carryfast:

Solly:
It’s obvious…and any fool can see… that every benefit that we have today was given to us freely by benevolent employers and governments via instructions from the “Employers UNION” that esteeemed social benefactor the CBI.
They wanted us to have parity of living standards to that which they enjoyed.
The same purchasing power so as to be able to sway elections so that we also could accumlate £1000’s in offshore bank accounts and live in large sub-urban houses or expensive town-houses without a worry in the world. The Union members of recent generations didn’t need to subscribe to such organisations. They were fools. The benevolent and fair employers and governments would insure thro’ the CBIthe workers got a fair deal and enjoy those luxuries. These employers and governments wouldn’t legislate against these workers. After going out of their way to elevate the workers to the same financial and social status as themselves what would be the point? It couldn’t happen. The workers would never take action against these wonderfully philanthropic people. Not possible.
That’s correct isn’t it?
Well?
Isn’t it■■?

It must have been some sort of absolute mass economic madness acting like Lemmings for the workers to have taken such ridiculous action when anyone knows that by their actions they reduced their living standards by a factor of at least 10 or 20 times from those enjoyed by their parents during the 1920’s/30’s.The end result being that Callaghan had no option but to try to bring back some sense into it all by calling for wage restraint and then Thatcher when she did the right thing by just closing the lot down and giving all the work to cheaper foreign workers instead.The benefits are obvious to anyone just by seeing where the UK economy is now let alone 1922-32 when it was at it’s peak compared to where it was in 1972 when those greedy unions’ power was at it’s worst.

You are talking to yourself again

[solly]

It’s amazing to see that so many Truck Drivers believe the UNION Movement only started in the 1970’s.

Weren’t any of you taught Social History at school and elsewhere…or did/do most get their information on such subjects from the “Murdoch media” and the government’s paymaster statements?

FYI and don’t get upset by this revelation…The Union Movement has been in existence for 100’s of years.

Many men and women with more backbone than most on this forum suffered extreme deprivation, were deported, and died for the basic rights we enjoy today. Governments and their paymasters have tried to overturn these basic rights for just as long…and most of you are breaking your necks to assist them ffs.

Most of you deserve everything that is coming to you. Enjoy… and don’t bleat when it eventually happens. You had the chance and ■■■■■■ it.

[carryfast]

Solly:
:lol: It’s amazing to see that so many Truck Drivers believe the UNION Movement only started in the 1970’s.

Weren’t any of you taught Social History at school and elsewhere…or did/do most get their information on such subjects from the “Murdoch media” and the government’s paymaster statements?

FYI and don’t get upset by this revelation…The Union Movement has been in existence for 100’s of years.

Many men and women with more backbone than most on this forum suffered extreme deprivation, were deported, and died for the basic rights we enjoy today. Governments and their paymasters have tried to overturn these basic rights for just as long…and most of you are breaking your necks to assist them ffs.

Most of you deserve everything that is coming to you. Enjoy… and don’t bleat when it eventually happens. You had the chance and [zb] it.

It’s not just truck drivers it’s the working population in general that seem to have swallowed all the Murdoch bs and years of Thatcherite indoctrination since the end of the 1970’s.The fact is the damage has been done so it’s probably an oversimplification to think that union membership and action by itself,in the present economic environment,would work now in the way it would have done in the more industrialised high employment economy as it existed before that time.

I think your last sentence should be directed and applied to the TUC and union membership as it was in 1984 for failing to act in support of the miners and bring Thatcher down.They didn’t and she won so it’s not surprising that everything since then has reflected that and the Thatcher generation don’t know any different.It’s not a case of ‘when it actually happens’ the fact is it’s ‘happening’ and has been ‘happening’ since that defeat of the NUM in 1984.It’s going to be a long drawn out process considering,as you say,the time that it took the Union movement to reach the point where it was in the 1972 and 1973 NUM victories over Heath compared to where things stood during the Victorian era for example.

However even in the Victorian era we still had industry which was better than the type of issues which arise in an economy without it.So it looks like it’ll be the worst of all worlds type of economy,when it’s eventually finished ‘happening’,of something like a mixture of Victorian Britain and 21’st Century Greece.

[solly]

Carryfast:
…It’s not just truck drivers it’s the working population in general that seem to have swallowed all the Murdoch bs and years of Thatcherite indoctrination since the end of the 1970’s…

…So it looks like it’ll be the worst of all worlds type of economy,when it’s eventually finished ‘happening’,of something like a mixture of Victorian Britain and 21’st Century Greece.

I referred to Truck drivers because we are commenting on a trucking forum…but I agree.

Yeah we’re racing towards the Pre-Victorian era and the “I’m alright Jack” general populace don’t give a ■■■■.
It’s about time the Education system was changed so that the truth-be-told.

[starfighter]

In answer to your question children who opt to take the History GCSE are taught social history. Or at least they were ten years ago. I remember learning about the Corn Laws, Joseph Chamberlain, the poor laws, rotten boroughs and other delights. Of course the media only tells people what the state wants them to be told. The British Establishment are terrified that the peasants might rise up, always have been and always will be.

[kr79]

I learnt social history at gcse level my a level history was the failures of Weimar Germany and the rise of the ■■■■ party.
I can see where solly and carryfast are coming from and admire the conviction in there beliefs but you must accept the unions have to carry a fair bit of the can for the changes for the worse over the last 40 years.
If this forum had existed 50 years ago I’d bet 95% of users would be union members vote labour and live in a council house. Back then labour represented the working man but look at labour today it’s the man who goes to a manual job pays his tax looks after his family they despise most. Look at the union leaders we have had in later years who just seem to want to antogonise the government not look out for there members that’s why there’s so much anti union feeling from most working people.

[carryfast]

kr79:
I learnt social history at gcse level my a level history was the failures of Weimar Germany and the rise of the ■■■■ party.
I can see where solly and carryfast are coming from and admire the conviction in there beliefs but you must accept the unions have to carry a fair bit of the can for the changes for the worse over the last 40 years.
If this forum had existed 50 years ago I’d bet 95% of users would be union members vote labour and live in a council house. Back then labour represented the working man but look at labour today it’s the man who goes to a manual job pays his tax looks after his family they despise most. Look at the union leaders we have had in later years who just seem to want to antogonise the government not look out for there members that’s why there’s so much anti union feeling from most working people.

There’s a massive contradiction contained in all that in that if it was a case of not needing to antagonise the government and the employers to look out for their members there would have been/be no need for unions anyway.The fact is the unions had more powers up to 1972 than they managed to maintain during the 40 years after that period.If you’re right then the economy would be better in real terms now than it was then.It’s the government policy of a cheap labour economy and the global free market and the removal of union power that has caused the changes for the worse over the last 40 years.Not the improvements in living standards and increased spending power won by the unions in the post war years up until the Callaghan and Thatcherite policies of wage restraint and industrial closures and cheap imports took off.

[solly]

@kr79

I recognise the stereotype of a labour supporter only too well…thanks to certain sections of the UK media… and I agree with what you say about the present errr! Labour Party ehemmm!

What strikes me today… as it has for a long while… is the fact that what we take for granted today had to be hard fought for throughout history.

An example.
Talking to younger people…and some older people… it’s worrying that most think that something as accepted as taking a holiday was a given and not a very begruged concession only to be granted by your employer if he was feeling generous. Scrooge leaps to mind. Today… thanks to strong Union membership and action by those members in the past, it is now a RIGHT.
Still begruged but a RIGHT none-the-less.

Same thing happened with much you mentioned and you could go on for quite some time giving other examples. Shame people don’t have the insight to appreciate the fact.

@starfighter.

Having studied social history to some degree you will have an idea as to what’s been discussed here.

Yes I agree whole-heartedly that the British Establishment is afraid of the peasants and what they can do. That’s the reason for their successive media onslaught against any organisation or individual who oppose their ideology. They know only too well they are outnumbered.

[carryfast]

Solly:
@kr79

I recognise the stereotype of a labour supporter only too well…thanks to certain sections of the UK media… and I agree with what you say about the present errr! Labour Party ehemmm!

What strikes me today… as it has for a long while… is the fact that what we take for granted today had to be hard fought for throughout history.

An example.
Talking to younger people…and some older people… it’s worrying that most think that something as accepted as taking a holiday was a given and not a very begruged concession only to be granted by your employer if he was feeling generous. Scrooge leaps to mind. Today… thanks to strong Union membership and action by those members in the past, it is now a RIGHT.
Still begruged but a RIGHT none-the-less.

^ +1.

The UK media has never been as keen to compare examples,like those of my own grandparents who raised their families in two up two down Victorian housing without electricity during the 1920’s/30’s,which they could just about afford on the type of wage levels in the day which certainly wasn’t an unusual situation for most workers assuming that they were lucky enough to have a job.By the way that was Surrey’s County Town of Kingston not an industrial town up North.

That life was a type of inprisonment in which the ability to afford holidays and travel and private car ownership was totally unheard of and would have been alien to them.In other words the type of living standards of the average working class family didn’t change much at all during at least the 60 year period between 1880-1940 .Then to compare that to the type of life that their children like my own parents had as living standards improved continuously through the 1950’s/60’s and 70’s.In which car ownership,holidays and the ability to afford to buy a reasonably comfortable modern house became commonplace from the 1950’s on for many working families.

So what was it that was so different about the economy of the Victorian era and the early 20th century that created such a massive stagnation in living standards during the 60 year period between 1880-1940 compared to the dynamic fast paced changes and continuously increasing living standards which took place in just 30 years between 1945-1975 .Then running on from that question how is it that those like caledoniandream and kr79 can possibly say that it wasn’t union action which did that when there’s no way that it could have been down to some mythical change in employers’ attitudes in suddenly wanting to pay up and improve terms and conditions during those later years unlike the previous examples of those previous ones .

Then how can they then possibly say that it’s that same type of union action which has caused the reduction in wage levels in real terms and consequent reductions in living standards and downturn in the economy that we’ve seen over the last 37 years between 1975-to date considering that the unions have been stripped of their powers over most of that time since at least the late 1970’s through a combination of high unemployment levels,union legislation,and rigging of the labour market in favour of the employers through cheap imports and immigrant labour.

The fact is the economy has been subjected to a deliberate policy to try to reverse many of the gains in living standards which the union movement had hard won for the working class since the 1930’s to the 1970’s.However the government since the late 1970’s has shot itself and the economy in the foot by failing to realise or not wanting to realise that it’s only spending power and increases in living standards that can fuel future economic growth.Which is why the economy was zb’d in the 1920’s and 30’s and grew between 1945-1975.Then it’s been going backwards again since the late 1970’s with the government trying to slow the rate of decline down using borrowed printed money to hide just how fast it’s actually falling.

[caledoniandream]

You’re only as good as your last job…that is for employees but also for Union.

I absolute loved the move from Quantas when they got blackmailed by the Unions, master move.

People are not interested what caused it, they want solutions.
We can all talk problem and what have may caused the situation where we are in, but the Unions have done SFA to avoid immigration out of the new EC countries, have not moved to the employers to get instead of a pay deal, get the DCPC for free, like other countries have done.

So stop boring me senseless with “was war einmal” but tell me the solutions that the Unions have to help the economy recover!

And holding the country to a ransom doesn’t improve for nobody, as only a very few.
I wonder how many people are in trouble financial by buying to much fuel so that they could go to their work and make a living?
Or did the Union all help these innocent victims of their greedy action?.

[okey-didley-dokely]

caledoniandream:
You’re only as good as your last job…that is for employees but also for Union.

I absolute loved the move from Quantas when they got blackmailed by the Unions, master move.

People are not interested what caused it, they want solutions.
We can all talk problem and what have may caused the situation where we are in, but the Unions have done SFA to avoid immigration out of the new EC countries, have not moved to the employers to get instead of a pay deal, get the DCPC for free, like other countries have done.

So stop boring me senseless with “was war einmal” but tell me the solutions that the Unions have to help the economy recover!

And holding the country to a ransom doesn’t improve for nobody, as only a very few.
I wonder how many people are in trouble financial by buying to much fuel so that they could go to their work and make a living?
Or did the Union all help these innocent victims of their greedy action?.

What he said

---

I am here: tapatalk.com/map.php?vhy0yl
It’s not theirs anymore,
This is our England now.
Paaaaarrrrrrttttttttyyyyyyyy

[carryfast]

caledoniandream:
You’re only as good as your last job…that is for employees but also for Union.

I absolute loved the move from Quantas when they got blackmailed by the Unions, master move.

People are not interested what caused it, they want solutions.
We can all talk problem and what have may caused the situation where we are in, but the Unions have done SFA to avoid immigration out of the new EC countries, have not moved to the employers to get instead of a pay deal, get the DCPC for free, like other countries have done.

So stop boring me senseless with “was war einmal” but tell me the solutions that the Unions have to help the economy recover!

And holding the country to a ransom doesn’t improve for nobody, as only a very few.
I wonder how many people are in trouble financial by buying to much fuel so that they could go to their work and make a living?
Or did the Union all help these innocent victims of their greedy action?.

I think you’ve just your own argument in the foot.Because the panic buying of fuel just means that they filled up sooner instead of later.However the fact that fuel costs/taxation is too expensive in many cases to make it worth travelling to and from work,considering the wage levels out there,is a different matter and it’s that which is putting them into financial trouble.Which is why when something similar happened during the 1970’s with fuel costs outrunning wages the unions decided to deal with that by striking for better wages rather than let their members be left with the choice of getting into debt because of fuel prices or not getting to work.

The unions both here and in the US showed the solutions of how to make an economy grow by their actions during the post war years between 1945-1975.It’s all about the direct link between continuous growth in wage levels and living standards and future economic growth based on and driven by the growth in demand that those contininuous wage increases and living standards create in the economy.

The only way that people can spend what their employers aren’t prepared to pay them is by borrowing the money instead.Which is how most of the economic activety in the economy since the early 1980’s has been funded.

The issues of immigration of cheap labour from the ex communist east european states is just adding to the problem by depressing incomes and therefore demand in the economy even more.

In addition to which the government also decided to import cheap stuff that we can make for ourselves thereby not only putting more of our own workers on the dole,so even less growth in domestic demand,but also loss of tax revenues and increases in benefits payments and a trade deficit to go with it.

In that type of government created self inflicted economic zb up,all done on the basis that the employers thought/think that keeping wage levels low is the be all and end all of how to run an economy,how the zb can what’s left of the trade union movement do anything but say zb it you got yourselves into it now get yourselves out of it.But you won’t do it by cutting back on wages,terms and conditions even more than you have already so far.

The solution is the same one as the one that was shown to work before in driving the US and British economies during the post war period.But that would need the Thatcherites and Reagan supporters to put their hands up and say sorry we got it wrong.TYhe global free market economy and wage restraint in all it’s forms,wether that be cheap imports of stuff we can make ourselves or importing cheap imported labour,and rigging the labour market with high unemployment levels doesn’t work when it’s the opposite that’s needed.Domestic workers being paid more than enough wages to buy the products that they are making for the domestic market.

Suggest you check out how many Toyotas,Nissans and BMW’s were ever imported and how many Ford Mustangs etc etc were ever made for export and how much one cost relative to the average US worker’s salary at the time.That’s why they were all singing along to music like this at the time

youtube.com/watch?v=7b5HXZRQ … re=related

[simon]

Solly:
:lol: It’s amazing to see that so many Truck Drivers believe the UNION Movement only started in the 1970’s.

Weren’t any of you taught Social History at school and elsewhere…or did/do most get their information on such subjects from the “Murdoch media” and the government’s paymaster statements?

FYI and don’t get upset by this revelation…The Union Movement has been in existence for 100’s of years.

Many men and women with more backbone than most on this forum suffered extreme deprivation, were deported, and died for the basic rights we enjoy today. Governments and their paymasters have tried to overturn these basic rights for just as long…and most of you are breaking your necks to assist them ffs.

The first Unions were formed in the 1820s, roughly.
One of the earliest was a Dorset farm labourers union. The men who formed this union became known as The Tolpuddle Martyrs. They were transported to Australia for the crime of forming a union.
Later they were pardoned and got free transport back to Britain.
It’s due to the efforts of men like these forming unions that we have things like weekends, overtime pay, holidays, minimum wage, terms and conditions/contract of employment etc.

[starfighter]

One of the reasons things improved through the sixties and seventies is the money ploughed into regeneration by the government, expanding cities and building the New Towns. Look at the infrastructure around you, how much dates from the sixties? A lot of money and a lot of work right there. The reason manufacturing declined in this country was because it could be done cheaper abroad and many workers were only interested in doing as little as possible. It’s nothing to do with Thatcher and her low wage conspiracy.

People wanted goods as cheaply as possible without regard as to origin.

Many British workers (not all) wanted to get paid as much as possible to do as little as possible.

When have you ever known anyone say “I will pay more for this because it was made here”.?

Other reasons for non-competitiveness are the prolonged lack of investment in British factories going back to before the war. Even in the thirties Germany was ahead of Britain in industrial investment. Add the fact that we flattened most German factories and the US gave them the money to rebuild whilst we soldiered on with the the same clapped out machines in the same draughty old factories.

You are trying to reduce a complicated set of factors and events down to a simple one reason for everything and it’s all thatcher’s fault.

[carryfast]

starfighter:
One of the reasons things improved through the sixties and seventies is the money ploughed into regeneration by the government, expanding cities and building the New Towns. Look at the infrastructure around you, how much dates from the sixties? A lot of money and a lot of work right there. The reason manufacturing declined in this country was because it could be done cheaper abroad and many workers were only interested in doing as little as possible. It’s nothing to do with Thatcher and her low wage conspiracy.

People wanted goods as cheaply as possible without regard as to origin.

Many British workers (not all) wanted to get paid as much as possible to do as little as possible.

When have you ever known anyone say “I will pay more for this because it was made here”.?

Other reasons for non-competitiveness are the prolonged lack of investment in British factories going back to before the war. Even in the thirties Germany was ahead of Britain in industrial investment. Add the fact that we flattened most German factories and the US gave them the money to rebuild whilst we soldiered on with the the same clapped out machines in the same draughty old factories.

You are trying to reduce a complicated set of factors and events down to a simple one reason for everything and it’s all thatcher’s fault.

Firstly most of those government inspired ‘infrastructure projects’,in ‘expanding cities’ etc during the 1960’s,turned out to be a bad thing not a good one and had absolutely zb all to do with improving living standards.They actually did just the opposite in giving the employers a break from the continuing effort to drive up wages and living standards by creating a channel for the continuation of the opposite idea of low wage employment and sub standard zb housing on sub standard zb council housing estates.

I’ve actually got personal experience of the situation having lived through exactly such an ‘expansion’ in (what was) the County Town of Surrey.My parents had recently moved into a relatively new place bought privately shortly before I was born in the late 1950’s.It and the whole street amongst others in the area then had a compulsory purchase order put on it in 1963 because the government decided to build a zb great big inner city type tower block and so called housing estate on the area.Luckily for me and my parents the deal offered was a good one which allowed us to get the zb out of the place and move further out into the County away from,what turned out to be,just one of the many developments involved in the expansion of London going on in Surrey and Kent.

That area then just turned into a low wage and eventually largely immigrant community ghettoe,where no one with any sense,wants to live,carachterised by high crime rates and all the other zb aspects of the inner city in what was before an ordinary part of an ordinary Surrey town like Reigate or Redhill.

maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.4 … 87.05,0,0

You’ve also contradicted yourself by saying that the issue isn’t one of low wages but then went on to say (rightly) that the closure of British industry was all about importing cheap goods by getting the job done by low wage economies and then to add insult to injury you then want to blame that situation on the fact that British workers should have been prepared to accept less and work harder if they wanted to keep their jobs.Which mostly explains where the economy is now.It’s got everything to do with zb Thatcher and the low wage conspiracy.

[solly]

caledoniandream:
I absolute loved the move from Quantas when they got blackmailed by the Unions, master move.

You really are a piece of work…really you do need a kick in the pods… man.ffs
Do you say the same when “Fast Eddie” or any other haulage operator does something similar?

Just wait till you and your kind are dragging your well worn HGV license and sorry arse around haulage yards, getting down on your hands and knees doffing your cloth cap begging “Please sir…Please sir…giz’ a job, I’ll work for far less than minimum wage for you”. “In fact I’ll undercut any hauliers minimum wage”.“Please sir”. Please sir".

[solly]

I read in a well known Trucking Magazine…who it seems supports the moves… that the government, at the behest of business’ and employers…who else…are about to introduce more anti “Industrial Laws”…Acts actually, to reduce workers rights even more. This legislation, if successful affects everyone who is working, Union members or not. The injustice of it all is that the individual worker will be priced out of the proceedure. Well nothing has changed there then!

The new employment laws will put every worker at a distinct disadvantage. Not only will you find it difficult…if not impossible to fight your case at a tribunal every possible obstruction will be put in your way to discourage any defensive action by you and you will have little or no chance of representation or justice.

Brilliant move eh! caledonian■■?