Dartford Crossing

m1cks:

Winseer:
No “just deciding to pop through on the spur of the moment” possible?

Bugger setting up an account - if you’re only likely to use the damned crossing a couple of times a year…
Bugger pre-paying - I’m not always going to be “Planning” going that way hours or even minutes in advance…
The crossing might become as awkward as using a Cross Channel Ferry rather than what SHOULD have been done - which is to hand the whole thing over to the public - no more congestion, except when ■■■■ drivers crash in the tunnels…

Oh FFS this again? There was a whole thread where people tried to educate you on how simple a process this will be but you seem to have just stuck your head in the sand and are unwilling to even try to understand the changes.
I bet you could be in a room by yourself and still find something to disagree with yourself about.

+1 The wheel would still be square if Winseer had his way :open_mouth:

This toll charge system is long overdue and whilst it will not solve the congestion issues it will go a long way towards it. I have used similar toll systems in the USA, “Sunpass” in Florida, and they work well, not stopping, just drive through at 60mph.

Personally I Can’t see what the problem is with setting up an account ,
i did it for the 3 cars in my family , all you do is credit your account with £10 to open it then you have the option to top it up manually or automatically , at least by doing this you never get the dreded fine and it drops the price of a crossing to £1.67 instead of £2.50
This is also what they say about non payers
Evasion
Enforcing the charge is an important part of the Dart Charge scheme. Penalty charges and recovery processes will be used to tackle evasion.
Evasion is likely to involve both UK-registered and non-UK-registered vehicles. The automatic number plate recognition system recognises non-UK vehicles and a European debt recovery agency will support the recovery of outstanding charges. This approach has proven successful with similar schemes such as the London congestion charge.

ANPR is also in use at all exit port from the UK so it would not be difficult to detain any vehicles that has outstanding toll charges from anywhere in the UK. DART Charge, London congestion charge etc.
Someone said in another thread that charges for the Blackwall tunnel were being discussed and that could use a system similar to DART charge,

Can’t you also pay in a shop like the congestion charge?

Radar19:
Can’t you also pay in a shop like the congestion charge?

I’ve seen these shops where you can pay ,but none with a big parking space out side reserved for lorries to park in to pay the charge ,I can’t see many employed drivers being left in control of paying such charges ,you wouldn’t believe how many lorry drivers still don’t know if they’ve been in the charge zone or not .

Dan Punchard:

Radar19:
Can’t you also pay in a shop like the congestion charge?

I’ve seen these shops where you can pay ,but none with a big parking space out side reserved for lorries to park in to pay the charge ,I can’t see many employed drivers being left in control of paying such charges ,you wouldn’t believe how many lorry drivers still don’t know if they’ve been in the charge zone or not .

If they are employed then its down to the company they work for to sort out the payments. I would imagine you’d be able to pay at service stations, seems silly not as there is one literally out of the tunnel going northbound.

Dan Punchard:

Radar19:
Can’t you also pay in a shop like the congestion charge?

I’ve seen these shops where you can pay ,but none with a big parking space out side reserved for lorries to park in to pay the charge ,I can’t see many employed drivers being left in control of paying such charges ,you wouldn’t believe how many lorry drivers still don’t know if they’ve been in the charge zone or not .

Yeh. I wait the inevitable fines through the post for full-time employed truck drivers who just flew through, thinking the company has automatically kept an account in credit to pay for it.

Let’s face it - YOU have no idea of if the toll has been paid or not - IF there’s no lookupable photo on a website for the public to peruse in the interests of “freedom of information”.

If anyone gets a letter from some European debt recovery agency to “be paid - or else” - then they can accuse anyone of parking illegally on the moon, and you’d not be able to prove that you didn’t.

Bet they are not going to pursue foreign private vehicles that “went through without paying” though. The EU debt recovery is from UK citizens only - I bet.
Let’s face it - they have not done a good job of busting those who are still driving an old foreign registered car after being here over a year – ie it has no MOT on it. Now the tax disk system has been “changed” - You can’t know to report someone with “no road tax” anymore… Dumb move by the authorities there I reckon!

They are not pulling all those moped riders I see between J3 and J2 on the tunnel approach M25…
They are not pulling those cars that have deliberately left their number plates obscured by muck, so the APNR can’t read them.

You lot might think I’m an idiot for banging on about “thin end of the wedge” type arguments like I do.
Notice that everyone has “forgotten” that this crossing has paid for itself in full, and it was supposed to revert to public ownership once it HAD been paid.
The correct way therefore to charge for something that by rights should be free by this point - is to charge LESS - not “more” unless you give them a window into your life via an “account”.

How many of you out there faithfully “register” on every website you go to? There was me thinking few “would be bothered” by such things? Me? - I like to be tracked on-line as little as possible.
“Never” would have been a good amount, but I accept that’s not a realistic expectation. :unamused: Having been on line over a quarter of a century now, and I put a lot of my successful personal privacy and online safety down to my “care and consideration” over which on-line businesses I will deal with, and which I do not. Seeing that DVLA will flog your personal details to anyone that pays - DVLA is NOT an outfit I like to have dealings with.

Since the congestion charge has come in, I have avoided driving in London during the day both in my own vehicle, and at work with a truck.
It’s stressful worrying about “can I really go down this street” or “will I get a ticket” or "do I qualify as “loading” on this 7.5t entrance road to my still-2-miles-away destination estate? or even "Does this vehicle have a permit to use this diversion that was short-sightedly “only taking cars into account”?

Some might think “Hey, 3 points - no bother man” or “£60 fine? - I’ll have earned that by lunchtime!” - but I lack the luxury lifestyle that can afford to burn money like that…
You don’t “play” the system when it’s set up like this - you avoid it as much as possible instead.

Radar19:

Dan Punchard:

Radar19:
Can’t you also pay in a shop like the congestion charge?

I’ve seen these shops where you can pay ,but none with a big parking space out side reserved for lorries to park in to pay the charge ,I can’t see many employed drivers being left in control of paying such charges ,you wouldn’t believe how many lorry drivers still don’t know if they’ve been in the charge zone or not .

If they are employed then its down to the company they work for to sort out the payments. I would imagine you’d be able to pay at service stations, seems silly not as there is one literally out of the tunnel going northbound.

Can you imagine the Christmas queues for getting off at Thurrock - being like that all year around - because of those who want to use said petrol station? :unamused:

your right m8 ^^ it would be great to send these folk who come up with all these ideas out in a lorry and just see how many offences they actually commit .the one that I will not go along with is this you can’t come in yet !drive round for a bit ( in London ) like hell I will ,I’ll just block the entrance until you let me in !!

Winseer:

Radar19:

Dan Punchard:

Radar19:
Can’t you also pay in a shop like the congestion charge?

I’ve seen these shops where you can pay ,but none with a big parking space out side reserved for lorries to park in to pay the charge ,I can’t see many employed drivers being left in control of paying such charges ,you wouldn’t believe how many lorry drivers still don’t know if they’ve been in the charge zone or not .

If they are employed then its down to the company they work for to sort out the payments. I would imagine you’d be able to pay at service stations, seems silly not as there is one literally out of the tunnel going northbound.

Can you imagine the Christmas queues for getting off at Thurrock - being like that all year around - because of those who want to use said petrol station? :unamused:

Except unlike you most for these people at going to Thurrock will either have an account or go online to pay and won’t make a mountain out of a molehill over it.

Winseer:
Yeh. I wait the inevitable fines through the post for full-time employed truck drivers who just flew through, thinking the company has automatically kept an account in credit to pay for it.

How will they be able to send the fine to the driver, the contact details they have will be for the registered keeper.

Winseer:
Let’s face it - YOU have no idea of if the toll has been paid or not - IF there’s no lookupable photo on a website for the public to peruse in the interests of “freedom of information”.

If anyone gets a letter from some European debt recovery agency to “be paid - or else” - then they can accuse anyone of parking illegally on the moon, and you’d not be able to prove that you didn’t.

If you have an account it lists the crossing you have done, I know I just had a look and the old dart tag was the same. If they send you a bill for a crossing from month ago you’d just check the time and date on the account.

Winseer:
Bet they are not going to pursue foreign private vehicles that “went through without paying” though. The EU debt recovery is from UK citizens only - I bet.
Let’s face it - they have not done a good job of busting those who are still driving an old foreign registered car after being here over a year – ie it has no MOT on it. Now the tax disk system has been “changed” - You can’t know to report someone with “no road tax” anymore… Dumb move by the authorities there I reckon!

Well they’ve been after foreign trucks not paying the Levy, And as you said earlier it’s been handed over to debt collection agencies, and by the time they get involved it will be a lot more than £2.50 they’ll be after.

Winseer:
They are not pulling all those moped riders I see between J3 and J2 on the tunnel approach M25…
They are not pulling those cars that have deliberately left their number plates obscured by muck, so the APNR can’t read them.

Well I use the crossing a lot and I haven’t seen loads of moped riders between junction 2 and 3. Are you sure they not 125cc commuter scooters?

Winseer:
You lot might think I’m an idiot for banging on about “thin end of the wedge” type arguments like I do.
Notice that everyone has “forgotten” that this crossing has paid for itself in full, and it was supposed to revert to public ownership once it HAD been paid.
The correct way therefore to charge for something that by rights should be free by this point - is to charge LESS - not “more” unless you give them a window into your life via an “account”.

They’re not getting rid of the charges, despite years of campaigning from pressure groups, and it has reverted to public ownership as it owned by the Highways agency a government body, but the toll system are operated by private companies.

Winseer:
How many of you out there faithfully “register” on every website you go to? There was me thinking few “would be bothered” by such things? Me? - I like to be tracked on-line as little as possible.
“Never” would have been a good amount, but I accept that’s not a realistic expectation. :unamused: Having been on line over a quarter of a century now, and I put a lot of my successful personal privacy and online safety down to my “care and consideration” over which on-line businesses I will deal with, and which I do not. Seeing that DVLA will flog your personal details to anyone that pays - DVLA is NOT an outfit I like to have dealings with.

If you’ve been online since 1989 that would explain a lot, must have been lonely in those days. The DVLA don’t need you to be on line to flog your details. They already have your vehicle details, licence details, contact details, probably medical information and even a photo of you.

Winseer:
Since the congestion charge has come in, I have avoided driving in London during the day both in my own vehicle, and at work with a truck.
It’s stressful worrying about “can I really go down this street” or “will I get a ticket” or "do I qualify as “loading” on this 7.5t entrance road to my still-2-miles-away destination estate? or even "Does this vehicle have a permit to use this diversion that was short-sightedly “only taking cars into account”?

Some might think “Hey, 3 points - no bother man” or “£60 fine? - I’ll have earned that by lunchtime!” - but I lack the luxury lifestyle that can afford to burn money like that…
You don’t “play” the system when it’s set up like this - you avoid it as much as possible instead.

It doesn’t surprise me you find London stressful.

^^^

I respectfully suggest that at THIS time of the year - the vast majority of those using the tunnel in their private cars - wont be using it for commuting.

…The regular commuting users would know better than to even try.

The problems I have mentioned stem down to “There needs to be a couple of booths that are still manned” that take cash payments - even if it’s to be at the more expensive toll rate.

Remember when London Underground stations used to have all those ticket machines differentiated by “an amount”. Yet, there would always be a big queue of people who’ve either “got no change” or “dunno what the right ticket to buy is”

“Irregular users” proof the system ain’t - essentially.

The Oyster system really HAS simplified it, but an out-of-towner like myself who might only use the Tube a handful of times per year - is still not going to bother getting an oyster card… Luckily for me, I can buy a capitalcard on the day, and use that instead. Perhaps some “pre-paid” card in the “fire and forget” format is used. You Buy it on January 1st, say, stick it in your windscreen, and when you go through the tunnel - the card is cancelled by the use. A “crossing token” if you like. If you attempt to use the crossing without a valid form recognised by the system - a gantry sign at the crossing exit says something like “Registration 55IM NOB - Payment NOT met” to remind you that you’ve used a spent card, or are just a “traveller” who’s used to not paying for anything, but the system has reminded you that they “have your number”…

All the time there are pre-paid cards for mobile phone use (after all this time!) - what’s wrong with a “fire and forget” dart tag we can buy in WH SMiths or something? I don’t wanna put £10 on some account for something I’m only going to use in say, the boxing day sales at Lakeside… :exclamation: :exclamation:

Muckles:
It’s the “Newer regs” that I find stressful about London now. I had no bother in the 90’s, when you could go pretty much where you wanted, only looking out for “Low bridge” signs.
If it were only the registered keeper who got fined - then how come so many employed drivers GET fined then? - Because the “registered keeper” no doubt passed on the information “who was driving” instead of saying “Our motor - our fine. Here’s a cheque” at your transport office.

Why are they using a EU debt collection agency? - It’s so you can’t turn up at their offices and moan… Everything is geared to make money a one way street for this outfit, a concept I’ve never agreed with via ANY firm starting up some kind of “new system” to extract money out of people that shouldn’t be paying it in the first place.

Being foreign scooters, I have no idea if they are “over 49cc” like the scooters I am more familiar with are. I of course make the assumption that “Motorway rules NO L drivers, Mopeds, Motorcycles under 50cc” means just what it says…

Bills with itemization? - I was not aware that was the way things are going. Not if I’m even being argued out of “wanting to be able to see a pic of myself going through the tunnel” on a website I’ve been obliged to register with…

I’ve been online since 1985 - back when the best modems were the illegal ones. Accoustic Couplers were always rubbish, so I never bothered with them. I used to have an account on Prestel, later Micronet800 and it was from this time that I used the screen name “Winseer” as well. When the main worldwideweb started up, I signed up for accounts early enough that my email address doesn’t have any numbers in it either. I’m not “anti-technology” by any means, so I can’t really call myself a “luddite”. I just object to being forced to hand over account credits and personal details to firms who’s offices I’m never likely to visit. OK, so I have serious trust issues. If anyone had any real idea just how anonymous the internet was - they might understand my paranoia a bit better.
The notion that “crimes can be prevented” is total rubbish.

The internet is the greatest invention to the common crook since the invention of the dagger and the skeleton key. :open_mouth:

Paedos don’t get caught because someone can “monitor their messages between themselves” on-line. THey get caught when someone among them foolishly puts their computer in for repair, and the repairbod reports them from what they’ve found on the offending machine.
Bank robbery can be done with a simple “assurance” that the money sent across the world - was for actual delivery of goods and services that’ll be honoured. Who says it has to be honoured? Who’s gonna make that Nigerian or Moldovan you’ve just paid online send you ANYTHING at all?
The internet has rendered entire countries unworthy to be traded with these days.

Meanwhile, the few countries you thought you COULD trust - flog your data to anyone prepared to buy or hack it out of their computer banks. It comes as no surprise then, that any requests by a “young” firm for yet more rounds of personal details - will get met with the utmost suspicion by “old hand” cynical characters like me.

So by keeping a few tolls open for luddites like you it nullifies all the efforts and the whole concept of the removal of the barriers.
You’d be happy to have tolls at the higher rate for people like you who dont want an account? Guess what, there’s plenty of tolls - they’re little newsagents and paypoint outlets where you can pay up to 26 hours after crossing.
If you’ve been over the Thames or under it why do you need photographic proof? It’s not like the congestion charge where you may miss a sign or its obscured. Its a ■■■■■■■ mile long tunnel FFS.
Do you always go out of your way to make life difficult for yourself?

m1cks:
So by keeping a few tolls open for luddites like you it nullifies all the efforts and the whole concept of the removal of the barriers.
You’d be happy to have tolls at the higher rate for people like you who dont want an account? Guess what, there’s plenty of tolls - they’re little newsagents and paypoint outlets where you can pay up to 26 hours after crossing.
If you’ve been over the Thames or under it why do you need photographic proof? It’s not like the congestion charge where you may miss a sign or its obscured. Its a [zb] mile long tunnel FFS.
Do you always go out of your way to make life difficult for yourself?

Your argument here only holds weight - if, in addition to the toll removal - they are also no longer going to “stop escortable vehicles”.

If there’s an area for Dangerous Goods to wait - then there’s the obvious place to keep a booth open for cash payments as well.

“Removal of the barriers” will speed up traffic flow - but it won’t involve 100% removal, and if it’s not to be 100%, then why not just keep the left hand lane for escape lane/wide goods/dangerous and CASH PAYMENTS. You know what’s going to happen without a cash payment booth - A significant number of people pulling straight past in the open stretch, not realising - or refusing to realise - that they’ve just clocked up a bill by it now being too easy to just “keep on going through the open bit” rather than pull left and cough up on the spot.

I think there’s going to be a lot of £105 fines handed out to UK people, thus subsidising those foreigners who still won’t be chased for the money. A two-tier system.
My arguments are not about myself, who’ll be looking to use the crossing but once a year, and pay a premium for that single use - it’ll be anyone who is now living in the North Kent area, and doesn’t understand how the system works. Abroad? - You’ll just get billed, or have to pay the tollbooth charge. APNR? - It’s not yet a full-proof technology - especially when it’s only used to “nick” people who “have not coughed up”. The system should have been centralised - NOT privatised. It’s flawed because it’s now a two-tier system in private hands.

using payzone link i could if i wanted to pay across the road at my local co-op

same with when i has to pay congestion charge one day

Ways to pay
The cheapest way to pay is using a pre-pay account

Alternatively, once Dart Charge is operating you can make one-off payments in advance or by midnight the day after crossing:

online at gov.uk/dart-charge
over the phone by calling: 0300 300 0120

via a payzone retail outlet

payzone.co.uk/Store-Locator

by post (in advance only): Dart Charge Customer Services PO Box 842 Leeds LS1 9QF

Well you better hurry up and use it. It is shrinking now down to 16.3

OT yer, but I notice more than a year on the foreigners are still getting away parking underneath the bridges where they widened the M25 just north of Dartford ■■? How that blows I don’t know ffs …

Anyone know if you’ll be able to pre-pay for your crossing at Medway Services (Farthing Corner M2)? Just wondered, because I am now retired and will only occasionally need to cross by car. Robert :question:

weeto:

Winseer:
No “just deciding to pop through on the spur of the moment” possible?

Bugger setting up an account - if you’re only likely to use the damned crossing a couple of times a year…
Bugger pre-paying - I’m not always going to be “Planning” going that way hours or even minutes in advance…
The crossing might become as awkward as using a Cross Channel Ferry rather than what SHOULD have been done - which is to hand the whole thing over to the public - no more congestion, except when ■■■■ drivers crash in the tunnels…

There is an alternative to setting up an account with them, you can use this company http://www.dartsave.co.uk/index.html to manage it and only pay after you use it, upto 7 days after with no penalty, unlike them who will fine you if it isnt paid by midnight the next day.
That covers everything but trucks, but according to the site you can use your SNAP account if you have one to pay it as well.

If you are going to sign up for that you nay as well sing up for the official account and save yourself 80p per crossing . plus I recon it will be less painfull if u fail to pay the official one in the way of fairer fines and costs

edit: reading wrong bit :blush: