Dangerous goods question

[alcraw62]

I do not have an ADR licence, and only passed my class 2 last December. I have been working full time on class 2 since then.
Today I delivered a pallet of drums to a well known chemical factory. The guy who tipped me asked if I knew what I was carrying, and I said “no, why?”
He said it was pure nicotine, highly toxic, and if the contents of the drums had leaked and made contact with skin, it would be fatal!
The people who loaded me had not said a word about what I was carrying. I noticed the labels saying “toxic”, but in nanny state Britain I just assumed it would be something a wee bit out of the ordinary.
I phoned my employers who told me it would “probably” be legal, as long as I was carrying less than 500 kilos of the stuff. Easy for them to say since it’s not their licence, and they are getting paid anyway.
So, I was wondering if any knowledgeable members can put me right in case they try to pull a stunt like that again. Do I need an ADR licence to carry ANY dangerous goods?
Should there not be hazchem signs on the truck?
Should the truck carry any extra safety equipment?
Surely they should tell the driver in any case if you are carrying something like that?
Thanks for any advice…

Al.

[cbr_si]

a couple of years ago, I did an agency stint working in the office for a Boots warehouse. If I remember right, if the stuff is LIMITED QUANTITIES (labelled as such), then you’ll be ok. (ie there should be a label that says 'limited quantities on it.)

In a nutshell, it means the stuff you are carrying has a ‘limited quantity’ of potential hazardous ‘stuff’. Eg, Deodorant has X amount of propellant etc so it can be carried without the ADR. (In other words it couldn’t be sold as household if they went over a certain level of the nasty stuff. As an aside, mouthwash has a minimal amount of alcohol under the limits just to comply with the regs; the manafacturers would like to put more in!).

If it is not LIMITED QUANTITIES, then you need the relevant qualification to carry it, AND have the paperwork with you in case of an incident to show the police/fire and rescue.

If you are unhappy carrying something, then you CAN refuse to carry it. Out of experience, I was sent to a place to collect some LIM QUANT solvents after tipping a container. When I got there, it wasn’t as described and fully labelled in the HAZ CHEM stickers! I asked about it, and the office there said I needed ADR, and when my transport office said it would be ok, they refused to load it! in the end, I got it loaded, and drove it into the yard there and dropped the trailer, and the only ADR driver had to divert from where he was going (luckily only about 30 miles away!), and come and swap trailers with me!

At the end of the day, it is YOUR Licence and YOUR livelyhood.

An orange plate at the front and rear of a vehicle indicates hazardous goods on board. These must be folded in / removed when not in use. There is a fine for non-compliance.
The need for extra equipment (fire extinguishers etc, I dont know what else as I dont have ADR) I imagine depends on the load.

I would have thought you would have had some kind of paperwork to hand in to your destination, on there I would have thought it must list any hazardous goods.

hope you can make some sense of this!

Si

[scanny77]

with ADR you must carry extra documents eg TREMCARD (transport emergency card) which tells you what to do in the event of leaks, accidents etc etc etc. you should also carry PPE relating to what you are carrying plus spillage kit etc. orage plates must be displayed when carrying ADR goods and the containers are still classed as dangerous until they have been properly cleaned out.
it is possible to carry ADR goods without requiring a certificate but it depends on the size of the individual packages. i cant remember what they are exactly but im pretty sure a single 500 litre/kilogram container will definately require certification. the package size depends on a number of things ie transport category, risk group and package group.
things may have changed since i did the course so i would find a website to check up. i know there are planned changes coming up which will restrict non ADR qualified drivers so watch what you are doing. if in doubt, dont take it. its your licence and the punishments will be big if you get caught

[kitkat]

The changes have already happened m8,if you want i’ll get a book from our office( if they have any left) and next time i see you i’ll give it to you.

orage

And on a lighter note,a Rangers fan that can’t spell orange.

[jb]

the adr laws are a complete farce… how can carrying 300,000 10cc bottles of acid be limited quantity and therefore “not as dangerous” as 20 1000kg ibc`s??
the logic of it defies me.

[kitkat]

JB:
the adr laws are a complete farce… how can carrying 300,000 10cc bottles of acid be limited quantity and therefore “not as dangerous” as 20 1000kg ibc`s??
the logic of it defies me.

It’s the size of the container’s m8,not the quantity

[wheel_nut]

kitkat:

JB:
the adr laws are a complete farce… how can carrying 300,000 10cc bottles of acid be limited quantity and therefore “not as dangerous” as 20 1000kg ibc`s??
the logic of it defies me.

It’s the size of the container’s m8,not the quantity

I agree with JB.

I drove a tanker for many years carrying the worse of the worse, In my interpretation a “pallet of drums” does not mean limited quantities or out of scope material.

An empty tanker is still hazardous until cleaned. whether it is class 3 which is more explosive when empty to a tanker of Phenol that has gone cold and is just a film of dust in the bottom.

A lot of these consignments are sneaked onto lorries by scrupulous freight forwarders who refuse to pay a premium

[scanny77]

picky picky picky

my certificate expired mate. i dont see the need for it at the moment so i havent bothered doing it again. my notes are no doubt out of date now too considering its been almost 8 years since i did the course. flour has limited combustibility in 32KG bags thanks for the offer though

[wheel_nut]

scanny77:
picky picky picky

my certificate expired mate. i dont see the need for it at the moment so i havent bothered doing it again. my notes are no doubt out of date now too considering its been almost 8 years since i did the course. flour has limited combustibility in 32KG bags thanks for the offer though

Yes but flour in a silo or any dusty premises are a hazard, A flour tanker can explode due to static electic or a dusty environment can explode as well, so dont be too smug, otherwise there will be a big bang and there you was, Gone

[geebee45]

Package size doesn’t play quite the role under CGD UPTE 2004 that it did under the old CDG Regs. Whilst there are exemptions for limited quantities, from; placarding, vocational training, fire extinguishers, PPE etc the situation has changed completely since the ‘new regs’ came in during April 2004. The limited quantity information now appears in the new approved carriage list, but as the boss is too cheap to by me the new book, I’ll leave Hazchem alone until I can get all the information. Two years ago I spent an unpleasant 24 hours in hospital following a very small chemical spill. The vehicle wasn’t marked (and didn’t need to be under the ‘old regs’) it stil kept 5 fire engine crews, 3 ambulances and 7 police cars busy, well, I’m told it did, my recollection of events is a little hazy!!
According to my ‘old’ ACL, Nicotine is in Package Group 3 which means that if the total load is in excess of 1000 litre you fall into the requirements for vehicle marking, training etc.
Breaking ADR Regs can get very expensive as the legislation comes under the remit of HSE. For example breaking the terms of one of their Prohibition Notices can be upto £ 20 000 and 6 months enforced holiday on Dartmoor!

[bikemonkey]

Before I started driving,I thought it would be a good idea to get an ADR more money and more money and more money e.t.c e.t.c.and if your doing tanker work and getting paid good money for it ,its probably worth it.but for most other ADR work it does’nt seem to be worth it as your getting paid about a tenner a week more than someone who has’nt got one,and talking to other drivers its a lot lot more hassle and responsibility for not much financial gain

[alcraw62]

Thanks for all the replies and useful advice. I think I will take the easy route and refuse to take anything that I feel might put my hard earned licence at risk.

Kit-kat, if you do manage to get a booklet from your office I would be grateful. IF I am still at Saints next time you are passing maybe you could drop it off. But the way things are going with the constant confrontations with the warehouse staff at you-know-who [those yellow trucks with 3 initials !!] I have started to look elsewhere. No problem with Saints, it’s just the staff at your airport depot.

Doing my class 1 very soon, so hopefully if I get through that it will open up some other doors.

Al.

[wheel_nut]

I will derail this thread for my own ends

Having been lucky enough to start driving tankers quite young, I have seen many changes in the industry, “from couldn’t give a zb to very heavily regulated”

Now one of my pet hates is Health and Safety for the sake of it, like walking on designated routes to cross an empty yard, and wearing hard hats and hiviz while stood in an office. But the early days stories were told to me about how to find out if a load was hazardous. Drivers I worked with who had lots more experience used to tell me that when they cleaned a tanker out they would drain a bit out and if it burned when you put a match to it, they would take some home and run their cars on it, if it bubbled concrete they would give it to their wives to clean paths and sinks. If it smelt nice they would fill a bottle and use it as an air freshener

The ADR markings and Hazchem markings contradicted themselves until there was some liason with the various countries. In Europe there were also many variations of quantities and permitted routes. Some acids we used to carry were only permitted in 10 tonne maximum loads across austria. There were some products we carried to Germany which were banned from entering the drainage system, so we had to return to France or Holland to clean the tankers.

I have had to deliver a tank load of Cyanide to Baglan Bay, and before I loaded had to do a course which taught me to inject myself with an antidote. When I got to Baglan Bay, the bloke gave me a jam jar and a piece of string to get him a sample

In this case H & S did need to do something so things have improved, maybe a little too much with safety harnesses and companies banning you from the tops of tankers when you are loading, But they dont realise that you still need to climb on top to discharge or clean them.

I worked with one bloke who thought he knew better and went inside a tanker after tipping a load because the load had evaporated and was basically clean, apart from a couple of specks of black particles near the footvalve. What he didnt realise was the tanker had been loaded with a nitrogen blanket, an inert gas that keeps the product fresh and keeps moisture out. He climbed inside the tanker and was found 3 days later blown up like an old sheep He left 3 kids and a wife behind.

I have been burnt while tipping even though I was wearing all the safety equipment, at one point I looked like the singing detective In this incident it was a belgian driver alongside me who opened the wrong valve, instead of rushing off to the health centre I gave him a thick lug first, getting us both banned off site

I dont give a zb if i never see an orange plate again

[scanny77]

i drive a curtainsider mate so it still doesnt apply

[knight]

At my last job I had to go to a chemical plant form time to time to repair tanks and ducting. We used to hear some horrendous tales of what certain chemicals could and did do to people. As subcontractors we had go through a lot of training before we even went on the site and were subject to strict rules and regulations. Pity there own people didn’t . They decided to clean out a tank that hadn’t been used for the best part of twenty years so they started scraping out all the crud inside. but they forgot to monitor the temperature and left to do something else. The result was a massive fireball which shot out of the manhole at the end of the tank hit and incinerated a portacabin, killed two men instantly carried on and hit the main office block and incinerated that. I’m not sure of the total but I think it killed another three people including a young girl who had just started work there after leaving school.
You need good training to handle chemicals safely. I doubt if the ADR covers it like I think it ought to.

[wheel_nut]

knight:
At my last job I had to go to a chemical plant form time to time to repair tanks and ducting. We used to hear some horrendous tales of what certain chemicals could and did do to people. As subcontractors we had go through a lot of training before we even went on the site and were subject to strict rules and regulations. Pity there own people didn’t . They decided to clean out a tank that hadn’t been used for the best part of twenty years so they started scraping out all the crud inside. but they forgot to monitor the temperature and left to do something else. The result was a massive fireball which shot out of the manhole at the end of the tank hit and incinerated a portacabin, killed two men instantly carried on and hit the main office block and incinerated that. I’m not sure of the total but I think it killed another three people including a young girl who had just started work there after leaving school.
You need good training to handle chemicals safely. I doubt if the ADR covers it like I think it ought to.

Was that Hickson and Welch in Castleford Knight?