Daily check confusion

khdgsa:
I think I know where the 15 minutes comes from. There’s a DVSA video (probably still available on YouTube) where someone is wandering around a wagon explaining to someone else about what he’s doing…“now I’ll check this isn’t loose, check the tyre for bulges etc”.
If you watch it, it takes him about 15 minutes to make his way around the whole vehicle, so now I guess it’s become to mean “Daily checks will take fifteen minutes”.

I find it unreasonable that a driver would be really expected to check for bulges on tyres (except blatant damage to the external face of an outer wheel), or start rattling panels and attachments to check their security. This is really the domain of a mechanic in a workshop (with protection from the weather, inspection lights, and a roller board), to be done on a frequency less than daily (or at the behest of the driver following some sort of incident). I certainly wouldn’t be crawling under vehicles in the yard to check tyres for bulges.

As I say, this expectation of 20 minutes on the card is surely from the start of the shift to moving off. It might consist partly of a manual entry (now that more recent tachos make it easy to enter the start of the shift manually), unless you already have the keys to the wagon on you when you get to work.

It isn’t 20 minutes for vehicle checks alone, on top of the time for getting your paperwork, your instructions, setting up in the vehicle, and so forth.

robroy:

san miguel:
Regardless or it being a legal requirement or not. surely a written record of your walk around check is good practice anyway isnt it?

We get a sheet to fill in every morning.
It is in blocks of 10 with about 10 item squares in each block.
Me being me, I put the bottom of the tick in the bottom block square drawing it right up to the top square on the block, so instead of 1000 ticks I was doing about 5 big ones :laughing: …just for the wind up tbh :blush:
I was told I MUST tick every individual box or I would suffer untold pain, pestilence, and eventual death :unamused:

I was not asked if I WAS actually checking every item, they were more concerned with keeping up appearances of so. :unamused:

Sounds like the time I was told my signature was illegible - “and your initials aren’t very clear either”. I said “I’ll use a stencil then”, only to be told no, as it had to be in my handwriting.

After telling her to refer to a manager for common sense, she did so and informed me that what I had tendered was, after all, acceptable.

Rjan:

robroy:

san miguel:
Regardless or it being a legal requirement or not. surely a written record of your walk around check is good practice anyway isnt it?

We get a sheet to fill in every morning.
It is in blocks of 10 with about 10 item squares in each block.
Me being me, I put the bottom of the tick in the bottom block square drawing it right up to the top square on the block, so instead of 1000 ticks I was doing about 5 big ones :laughing: …just for the wind up tbh :blush:
I was told I MUST tick every individual box or I would suffer untold pain, pestilence, and eventual death :unamused:

I was not asked if I WAS actually checking every item, they were more concerned with keeping up appearances of so. :unamused:

Sounds like the time I was told my signature was illegible - “and your initials aren’t very clear either”. I said “I’ll use a stencil then”, only to be told no, as it had to be in my handwriting.

After telling her to refer to a manager for common sense, she did so and informed me that what I had tendered was, after all, acceptable.

:laughing: You couldn’t make it up could you…, and these are the types that run Haulage, sorry Logistics :unamused: companies today.

Turns out, a lot of drivers at our place don’t fill in their defect sheets. Got an email from one of girls who deals with the paperwork in the office about this. Turns out, writing a big O in the defect description box isn’t good enough. It has to say NIL.

Rjan:

khdgsa:
I think I know where the 15 minutes comes from. There’s a DVSA video (probably still available on YouTube) where someone is wandering around a wagon explaining to someone else about what he’s doing…“now I’ll check this isn’t loose, check the tyre for bulges etc”.
If you watch it, it takes him about 15 minutes to make his way around the whole vehicle, so now I guess it’s become to mean “Daily checks will take fifteen minutes”.

I find it unreasonable that a driver would be really expected to check for bulges on tyres (except blatant damage to the external face of an outer wheel), or start rattling panels and attachments to check their security. This is really the domain of a mechanic in a workshop (with protection from the weather, inspection lights, and a roller board), to be done on a frequency less than daily (or at the behest of the driver following some sort of incident). I certainly wouldn’t be crawling under vehicles in the yard to check tyres for bulges.

As I say, this expectation of 20 minutes on the card is surely from the start of the shift to moving off. It might consist partly of a manual entry (now that more recent tachos make it easy to enter the start of the shift manually), unless you already have the keys to the wagon on you when you get to work.

It isn’t 20 minutes for vehicle checks alone, on top of the time for getting your paperwork, your instructions, setting up in the vehicle, and so forth.

Unfortunately, under the law the driver has liability (licence endorsable) for brakes and tyre defects although it’s obviously not practical to check inner drive tyres and a whole host of other things but it is wise to pay closest attention to those things.

Of course we all know it’s nonsense but post-DCPC it’s not unreasonable to expect drivers to have better knowledge of what to look for.

This contradicts your other post, in reply to mine, where I point out that drivers aren’t mechanics and don’t find serious defects typically they will of course find blown bulbs that have occurred in service and the like. The backbone of the maintenance regime is really the periodic maintenance inspections.

Rjan:

Own Account Driver:
I’m struggling to think of an occasion when a driver has brought a vehicle into the workshop after their checks with a defect that would have represented an immediate danger to road safety. Ok, stuff like a faulty screenwash does really need to be done before going out on the road but also it’s not going to result in immediate carnage as soon as they leave the yard. At the end of the day there’s only so much that can be checked from an exterior walk round of the vehicle and spending 15 mins is bonkers some VOSA test stations will do an MOT in less than that.

Hardly any fault identified by a driver doing daily checks will result in “immediate carnage” - even a totally unbolted front wheel isn’t so bad in the scheme of driving accidents, if it just flops off at the first turn out of the gatehouse leaving you lurched on the concrete. But a badly bolted wheel which comes off 50 miles later at motorway speed is another question.

A non-functional screenwash is OK for the first few miles, but can quickly become a serious hazard under certain dry weather conditions (typically icy conditions with salted roads, or dusty summer days) and over a sufficient distance. I’ve driven cars on more than one occasion over the years (whose fluid levels admittedly I don’t check daily) that have run out of water during the journey in such conditions, to the point that I couldn’t really see any more - I once had to throw orange juice over the screen to eke out a few more miles to get water. I have long managed that risk in my own car by carrying spare water in lieu of checking the car’s wash bottle.

For a HGV operator, the standard response to a report of such a defect at the start of the shift should be an immediate fix - the alternative is no better than arguing that a bald tyre will do for dry weather (which is true by the laws of physics, but it’s never a sign of responsible operation that someone other than the driver is making judgments about roadworthiness based on looking out the window at the clouds).

IIRC, the legal basis for daily checks, is that operators’ licence conditions typically say that processes should be in place to ensure that daily checks are undertaken on vehicles, and that records are kept to show the same. Other than this, daily checks are not enforceable (though actual defects are punishable).

The checks don’t have to take any particular form (other than the basic roadworthiness which someone can be expected to detect and check daily without tools or mechanical skills). Serious defects (other than the truly unforeseeable failure of a well-maintained vehicle) should not arise suddenly - the driver does not need to check the torque of the wheel bolts with a wrench, or stress test the structure on a daily basis.

The driver does not necessarily have to be the one undertaking all of the checks required to keep a vehicle roadworthy as a whole - in fact strictly I don’t see that he has to undertake any daily checks (as long as the operator arranges for them to be done daily by somebody).

The driver is not responsible for the roadworthiness of the vehicle in every respect (although he may have strict liability at the roadside, and would be expected to have basic common sense and reasonable skill). If the firm delegates any checks to the driver (rather than say a mechanic), they are ultimately responsible for specifying those checks, scheduling them, and training the driver to do them. The checks I generally do take no more than 10 minutes - and if the vehicle is familiar, maybe only 5 minutes. Twenty minutes would cover the period from getting into the yard and starting the shift, and setting off - 20 minutes for daily checks alone is surely too much in general.

The records kept and processes in place also don’t have to take any particular form. Realistically, a list of basic roadworthiness items to check, and a tick box in a register kept by the driver (and handed in periodically) might be sufficient.

Many firms choose to engage in a lot more ceremony, such as drivers handing in carbon copy sheets at the start of the shift, which does not logically prove that the checks were carried out or that no defect existed when leaving the yard, nor that the driver was trained to spot any but an obvious defect, but allows the firm to show that the driver is reminded every day that he needs to do at least some checking. Firms with transient workforces tend to have this ceremony, whereas a smaller firm or depot with evidence of a stable workforce, occasional training, and proper supervision, could rely just on the method of the driver keeping his own register in the vehicle.

Whatever your process and records, you’ll get away with almost anything so long as what you are doing is actually effective in preventing and catching mechanical defects.

This is too long to respond entirely to and I’m not really sure what the main thrust is but my comment is, as isn’t entirely unexpected some drivers make too much of a meal of daily checks and, in reality are ill-equipped, to find much beyond the obvious. The defects once established should be remedied.

What you find often though is you have a truck into the workshop for its maintenance inspection and it has, for example, a serious steering defect manifesting itself as a loud clunking or a brake circuit air leak. When you look at the records the same vehicle will often have had things like marker light bulbs done, after being found by the driver, during the same period.

I know drivers want to think they are doing something important with daily checks and, it is important, that lights are working properly etc if a bulb blows between inspections but, from a lot of experience, it’s very rare for them to find much beyond the obvious. The important stuff is generally only found when it fails catastrophically in service or during a periodic inspection in the workshop.

My ADR run out many Years ago,and we got said wot we neet to do before setting off. But no Check Sheet by Law,which doesnt mean it were no good Idea to use one.
But when you stop you cant stop,put Tacho on Break and go. You must stay for a minimum of 10 minutes on the vehicle,which is other Work. (Fire could start for example).
But i had ADR for all Classes. So i dont if an ADR for Parcel or Tank sees that more relaxed.

Own Account Driver:

Rjan:

khdgsa:
I think I know where the 15 minutes comes from. There’s a DVSA video (probably still available on YouTube) where someone is wandering around a wagon explaining to someone else about what he’s doing…“now I’ll check this isn’t loose, check the tyre for bulges etc”.
If you watch it, it takes him about 15 minutes to make his way around the whole vehicle, so now I guess it’s become to mean “Daily checks will take fifteen minutes”.

I find it unreasonable that a driver would be really expected to check for bulges on tyres (except blatant damage to the external face of an outer wheel), or start rattling panels and attachments to check their security. This is really the domain of a mechanic in a workshop (with protection from the weather, inspection lights, and a roller board), to be done on a frequency less than daily (or at the behest of the driver following some sort of incident). I certainly wouldn’t be crawling under vehicles in the yard to check tyres for bulges.

As I say, this expectation of 20 minutes on the card is surely from the start of the shift to moving off. It might consist partly of a manual entry (now that more recent tachos make it easy to enter the start of the shift manually), unless you already have the keys to the wagon on you when you get to work.

It isn’t 20 minutes for vehicle checks alone, on top of the time for getting your paperwork, your instructions, setting up in the vehicle, and so forth.

Unfortunately, under the law the driver has liability (licence endorsable) for brakes and tyre defects although it’s obviously not practical to check inner drive tyres and a whole host of other things but it is wise to pay closest attention to those things.

Of course we all know it’s nonsense but post-DCPC it’s not unreasonable to expect drivers to have better knowledge of what to look for.

This contradicts your other post, in reply to mine, where I point out that drivers aren’t mechanics and don’t find serious defects typically they will of course find blown bulbs that have occurred in service and the like. The backbone of the maintenance regime is really the periodic maintenance inspections.

Looking back, I think perhaps I misinterpreted your post (which I took to be saying a driver wanting his screenwash fixed immediately was being too inflexible). Apparently I’m also inclined to be a windbag when tired! :wink:

I agree maintenance inspections are the real key to catching defects.

As regards licence endorsements, it is indeed strict liability, but an enforcement officer does not have to issue a penalty, and a court does not have to endorse, provided you can show that no widely accepted good practice would have identified the fault. Most magistrates aren’t going to think it’s reasonable get on their hands and knees or slide under the car every morning to check the backs of their tyres for bulges, so I don’t see any reason they’d punish any other driver for missing such a defect. But it would be for the court to decide.

Same with the brakes - you can’t be expected to put it on the rolling road every morning! Worn pads are the operator’s responsibility, and perhaps he would be prosecuted for a CU24 causing or permitting offence if his inspection regime wasn’t sufficient.

Immigrant:
My ADR run out many Years ago,and we got said wot we neet to do before setting off. But no Check Sheet by Law,which doesnt mean it were no good Idea to use one.
But when you stop you cant stop,put Tacho on Break and go. You must stay for a minimum of 10 minutes on the vehicle,which is other Work. (Fire could start for example).
But i had ADR for all Classes. So i dont if an ADR for Parcel or Tank sees that more relaxed.

Now ry it in perfect English which is what you tend to do when you forget

^^^ oops!