Hello
My company has just bought a new 16+Driver seated mini bus. I have a D1 101 not for Hire or Reward on my licence. The company wants me to take the site fitters to site and back.
Is this Hire or Reward?? The company is not charging the site fitters any money.
It has a digi tacho fitted. Do I have to use it??
I seached DVLA and VOSA and its very confusing.
Thanks in advanced.
Jim
You are getting paid for doing the driving and whilst the fitters aren’t actually paying, it is still deemed as hire and reward. Much the same around the South Lincolnshire area all the gang masters have had to be tested to remove the restriction, or as some have done, bought in 8 seaters instead.
Smart Mart:
You are getting paid for doing the driving and whilst the fitters aren’t actually paying, it is still deemed as hire and reward. Much the same around the South Lincolnshire area all the gang masters have had to be tested to remove the restriction, or as some have done, bought in 8 seaters instead.
Thanks Guys
Ive just got off the phone from the DVLA and they said I can. Because Im transporting employee from my own company and there not been charged for the service then its ok.
Tachos I have to use and the mini bus needs a 62mph speed limter fitted. Can`t use the outside lane on motorway.
I forgot to ask about using BUS Lanes. Anyone know if I can?? I will be mainly driving in London.
Jim
Did you ask for comfirmation in writing, because I stand by my advice, which is based on knowledge of what happened in south lincs with a similar situation.
I’m surprised that anyone from DVLA would actually commit to giving you the advice, but good luck to you.
Think you sould check more carefully
As I beleave “Smart Mart” is 100% correct
// I.e you need an appropriate PSV licence.
As for “Bus Lanes” I strongly suggest that you stay well away
( as these are for the use of “Licensed Public Service” Bus’s )
Its cheeky.
But you could legitimately use the Car Pool lane
( while carrying your buddies ) 
Regards 2xQ
I used to drive a Minibus for work. I drove on a D1 (101) licence for 4.5 year until I left.
The job involved transporting workers from office to railway station and back. It also included transporting them from office to town centre at lunchtime and office to off site parking.
The structure was as follows. Company A hired the minibuses and provided company insurance cover for them. Company B was subcontracted to run the building facilities. Company C was the security company I worked for and were on contract to company B. The majority of passengers transported were company A employees. But some were from company B or C or even other subcontractors (catering, cleaners). Drivers were paid a salary, it was there main job and ran to a timetable.
Now I had problems with company C not having a clue about vehicles. I asked Company A why there wasn’t regular licence checks. A Company A employee decided to check again (I’d hadn’t been checked for over 2 years) and it was pointed out by me that 2 out of 4 drivers were unlicenced. They had passed their tests after 1997 and only had B licences. Despite that employees of company B & C still tried to send them out that lunchtime and I advised both not to as they weren’t insured. One had been doing the job for 2 years the other 8 months. They were later that day removed from driving duties and put on other work. Temporarily, the got some 8 seater people carriers on rental, enabling them to continue working. They were both retrained and sat D1 tests and passed. Company C picking up the tab.
Company A checked with their insurers about the D1(101) position for me and another driver. They also checked with the DVLA and VOSA. I checked with my union who couldn’t come up with a definite answer. I checked with VOSA and they wasn’t bothered as it was “staff transport”.
Both the DVLA and VOSA offer their interpretation, but also use the disclaimer that it does not constitute legal advice and to seek from a solicitor if you want a legal opinion.
So I never did manage to lean on my employers for a free licence upgrade 
Any payment direct or indirect that gives a passenger a right to be carried constitutes hire or reward.
If you have a hotel and offer a free courtesy bus to the airport: This constitutes hire or reward. Payment comes via money charged by the hotel for the room and is used to finance the bus. Even if the guest doesn’t use it, it still is hire or reward as the guest has the right to be carried.
If you have a nursery and offer a free minibus for the kids: This is hire and reward. Payment is indirect and passengers have right to be carried.
If you have an old folks home. Hire or reward. Same as above.
As you can see from the above, the passengers don’t have to make a direct payment for it to be classed as hire or reward.
If you have 16 mates on a jolly to Blackpool and you split the cost of rental / fuel equally and there is no element of profit, then that’s a NOT hire or reward. There are payments, but there is no profit (reward), no right to be carried and a private arrangement.
The trouble was, I couldn’t find a test case that set a precedent. There was some Magistrates Court decision about employee transport being hire or reward (something to do with Manchester Airport). But as this decision isnt’ binding and people call it a “grey area”.
I got no interest out of VOSA. They just couldn’t be arsed.
But if I had an accident with a load of fatalities, I’d be hauled over hot coals and in the clink.
Get independent legal advice.
My opinion is that it’s deemed to be hire or reward as you are being paid and the passengers have a right to be carried (i.e. it’s more than just a favour).
The only exceptions would probably come under Section 19 permits.
I quote from leaflet ins57p from DVLA
If your driving license does not allow you to drive minibuses, there are certain circumstances where you may still be able to do so. You may drive a minibus with up to 16 seats provided all the following criteria are met:
you drive for a non-commercial body for social purposes, but not for hire or reward
you are 21 or over
you are providing your services on a voluntary basis, and
the minibus weight is no more than 305 tonnes excluding any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers, or no more than 4.25 tonnes in certain circumstances.
When driving a minibus under these conditions:
you may not receive any payment other than out of pocket expenses
you may not tow any size trailer
you may only drive a minibus in this country
I think the phrase non-commercial body is the one thats the killer as your directly working for your firm. Your also receiving a wage so your getting more than out of pocket expenses.
I have e-mailed my MP with this…
Please could you ask the relevant MP for a definitve answer to
this problem as DVLA, DSA & VOSA do not have one!!
I have D1 on my licence with a 101 code restriction which means
that I cannot drive it for Hire or Reward.
I can drive it as a volunteer (unpaid), for my personal use or
on a section 19 clause - that is clear.
If I in paid employment by company ‘A’ can I drive company ‘A’
staff around in it??
If I am paid employment by company ‘B’ can I drive company ‘A’
staff around in it if they are not paying company ‘B’ ■■
It is the definition of ‘Hire or Reward’ that may be the crux
of this !!
The reply might take a while but I will get one 
Transport Act 1985 Section 137 (3):
References in this Act to a vehicle’s being used for carrying passengers for hire or reward shall be read in accordance with section 1(5) of the 1981 Act.
Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 Section 1(5):
- For the purposes of this section, and Schedule 1 to this Act–
(a)
a vehicle is to be treated as carrying passengers for hire or reward if payment is made for, or for matters which include, the carrying of passengers, irrespective of the person to whom the payment is made and, in the case of a transaction effected by or on behalf of a member of any association of persons (whether incorporated or not) on the one hand and the association or another member thereof on the other hand, notwithstanding any rule of law as to such transactions;
(b)
a payment made for the carrying of a passenger shall be treated as a fare notwithstanding that it is made in consideration of other matters in addition to the journey and irrespective of the person by or to whom it is made;
(c)
a payment shall be treated as made for the carrying of a passenger if made in consideration of a person’s being given a right to be carried, whether for one or more journeys and whether or not the right is exercised.
(Acts can be found here in full)
I can’t find the appropriate wording, but it would appear some local authority, NHS and employee transport stuff would be exempt.
truckerjimbo, I used to move employees about on a D1(101) and it’s right on fringes, but I’d guess it was just about legit - I did it for 4.5 years and checked with VOSA. They were happy as it was “employee transport” to them even though they weren’t my company’s employees 
:?::!:
We never had to use tachos and worked under domestic rules, but “non-PSV business use” in the lastest tacho book PSV375 (PDF) says it does. But, it may be classed as “private”, so doesn’t. Now I’m confused! 
Telephone your local VOSA and ask an enforcement bod.
Help!!!
I`m totally confused now!!!
But the tacho Im not. They changed the law for 10 -17 seat a short while ago. The same time they bought in 15/30 mins tacho break.
Right need to phone DVLA again and VOSA.
Bus lane = any bus with more than 9 seats and the bus lane sign doesnt say local. It doesnt state it has to be a pcv/psv.
Jim
ROG:
I have e-mailed my MP with this…Please could you ask the relevant MP for a definitve answer to
this problem as DVLA, DSA & VOSA do not have one!!
I have D1 on my licence with a 101 code restriction which means
that I cannot drive it for Hire or Reward.
I can drive it as a volunteer (unpaid), for my personal use or
on a section 19 clause - that is clear.
If I in paid employment by company ‘A’ can I drive company ‘A’
staff around in it??
If I am paid employment by company ‘B’ can I drive company ‘A’
staff around in it if they are not paying company ‘B’ ■■
It is the definition of ‘Hire or Reward’ that may be the crux
of this !!The reply might take a while but I will get one
GOT ONE
Found this and it requires an agency driver to have a PCV but the agency, the client & the agency driver are unlikely to know the law on this as they think they are exempt because it is a community exempt job 
Job Title MINIBUS DRIVERS LCR/35512
LocationLEICESTER
HoursDAYS
Wage £6.50
Work PatternDays
EmployerPertemps (Industrial Division)
Closing Date08/08/2008
PensionNo details held
DurationTEMPORARY ONLY
Description
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA BEFORE YOU APPLY: We are seeking experienced minibus drivers for a leading Leicestershire contract. All applicants must have the entitlement D1 on their licence. You must hold a full valid UK license, ideally with a clean counter part, however some minor points will be accepted. It is absolutely essential that all applicant hold an up to date CRB certificate that is no older than 12 months as you will be transporting community members around the city. This vacancy is being advertised on behalf of Pertemps (Industrial Division) who are operating as an employment business.
You can apply for this job by telephoning 0116 2471718 or 0116 2559411 and asking for Andy Poulton.
ME WRONG 
- just had the following sent to me with an exact definition on this issue
> I spoke to you early this week about D1(101) entitlement. I have been asked to also write you about agency drivers who use their D1(101) entitlement. My guidance does not constitute legal advice nor is it a ruling on the law.
>
> Drivers who passed a category B test before 1 January 1997 were granted automatically category D1 (not for hire or reward) entitlement. This is shown as code D1 (101) on the licence and enables the licence holder to drive a minibus provided the vehicle is not operated for “hire or reward”. A vehicle which is operated for hire or reward is one where the passengers pay a fare to use the vehicle or a contribution is made towards the running costs of using the vehicle.
>
> Therefore, an agency driver who is paid for driving can do so using D1(101) entitlement when the vehicle is not driven for hire or reward.
>
> Although drivers who satisfy the conditions are able to drive minibuses, the importance of road safety cannot be understated and only competent, trained drivers should be used for this purpose. The Department for Transport recognises that holding D1 Passenger Carrying Vehicle (PCV) entitlement remains the good practice option. The Department has published guidance on the options available for incidental driving of minibuses, a copy is attached.
>
> Upon passing the D1 test, a driver has full, unrestricted, entitlement to drive a minibus. In all cases where a minibus is operated for commercial purposes the driver must hold full category D1 (or D) entitlement to drive the vehicle.
>
> I hope that this is helpful, and please contact me if you have any further questions as I would be happy to answer them directly.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Policy Casework and Advice
> D16
> DVLA