I feel i’m right in sticking to the way the cmr’s are set out and what all of you have said is the same but when the people that are paying you for the job request it a different way what am i supposed to do ?
its the legal standing i want to know more i will ring the rha on monday for clarification
the only other way to do it is 4 copies without the page numbers on them ( some big companies do them this way by computer fill in the details then print al in black and white)
I am just revisiting this thread after doing a who’s who search.
As I see it the legalities are important, if, as you say your customer requests you do “A” while the CMR Convention says “B” is the correct way and it becomes an issue, maybe explaining the problem beforehand will help.
You deliver a load to France, they hand you back the GREEN copy signed, stamped and dated, which is the correct way “B”
Your customer then refuses to pay you for that load and it goes to court, the legal boffins will ask what the problem is, why haven’t you paid this man?
Because he gave us a green copy and we want a blue one, they will eventually stop laughing and charge them for wasting the courts time and make them pay you, same outcome, you will never work for them again, but you get paid
In 20 odd years of dealing with CMR’s, in many different countries, who got which copy and what colour that copy was has never been an issue with customers, forwarders, customs or enforcement officers.
Going from Swiss into Italy at Chiasso with 3 or 4 drops on and a CMR for each but no manifest or loading list and Italian Customs would want a copy of each CMR instead. They just took the top copy, the blue one, which left the green one for the consignee and the spare black copy for you to take back home. It certainley wasn’t a good idea to start telling Gino or Maria that they should take the black copy because you needed the blue one, not while there was a queue at each window and them with a DILLIGAF attitude.
I’ve had regular deliveries where they did not even sign the blue copy, just ripped that off and stuck it in a tray on their desk before stamping and signing the Green and Black copies. Others would stamp and sign the lot but then take the black copy from the back and give me the blue and green, I just took them and left. One guy I worked with who shall remain nameless, Kevin, always made a point of making sure the delivery place got the same copy every time, but he always gave them the green copy because he insisted it said copy 2 for consignee and he was convinced copy two was green because the numbering system didn’t include the red copy. I’ve seen him send them back to get him the blue copy when they have tried to give him the green and black, even if this meant him waiting ages for it. None of these things have ever been a problem.
On occasion when I was short of blank CMR’s I have made 4 out of 3 by using the 3 red copies to make an extra blank one. In that case some consignors got blue copies instead of red, consignees got green instead of blue while for one lucky shipment it was red all the way baby.
Seriously, this is a non problem. If the customer wants a particular copy, whether it is because of the colour or because it is signed in ink; although the consignee’s stamp on each copy is better proof of delivery because anyone can scribble in ink on a CMR to forge a POD, I know, I’ve done it, then let them have the copy they want. It’s no big deal and if everyone is happy because they have what they want or they haven’t scuppered customer relations, and get paid for the job in the process, then it’s all good.
In my experience…Hardly anyone has asked for the CMR copy. Consignee and sending company. I see it as a legal bit of paper for Customs only. 99 times out of 100 there are accompanying delivery notes anyway. That’s what I get signed and returned. Hope that helped.
The colour is neither here nor there. I usually find that in Germany they tend to use plain black and white printed from a computer. Maybe your customer could print the cmr so that each copy would then need signing in ink?
A few years back, I scanned a copy of a CMR into my laptop, I also had a printer in my cab, when loading I would just fill in the load details & print four copies, nobody ever objected.
A word of warning make sure you lose the red copy before you enter France, they DO not like to see this, mega bucks fine.
A couple of customers / agents have recently asked that they have the hard copy ( 2nd / blue) copy of the cmr as it is the one that is signed in ink after the delivery has been made
As I can understand why they want this copy I have written on the cmr that the customer not the consignee want this copy, the reason i have done this is
1 to cover myself and it could be classed as a “special instruction”
2 the cmr’s are numbered 1-4 and worded for sender consignee etc to create the paper trail ?
Am I wrong to write on the cmr to state this instruction ,
wrong to break the chain of the cmr
what are if any the legalities of this
i don’t get it, how can the second copy be signed in ink?
it would be the first copy that is signed in ink.
but you are right to write any instructions in the “special instructions for customs” box.
limeyphil:
i don’t get it, how can the second copy be signed in ink?
it would be the first copy that is signed in ink.
but you are right to write any instructions in the “special instructions for customs” box.
sorry the second copy would be the top copy for the consignee to sign after you have left the top copy with the sender
They are normally 4 part forms, occasionally more, but in all cases.
Red = Consignor (Sender)
Blue = Consignee (Delivery)
Green = Hauliers Copy. (Signed and returned for payment)
White. Spare or Admin Copy
It is the green one that is important and will normally be signed with the carbon set. Most customers will also stamp and date the CMR
When you collect anything, it is the drivers responsibility to clause the top and therefore all copy CMR’s with anything they want, temperature, method of securing load, any marks or damaged pallets etc. It is no good writing the pallets are damaged on numbers 2, 3 & 4 if the top copy is clean
perhaps i haven’t made myself clear
collect load fill in cmr leave top copy (red)with sender @ collection point
deliver load get signed stamped dated etc
customer i have done job with now wants the hard copy which is the 2nd (green) cmr which should go to the consignee if the cmr is done properly
after delivery the 3 remaining copies are signed stamped etc my customer wants the number 2 (blue)copy as it has the ink signature not a carbon copy which has gone thro to copies 3 & 4 and leave the 4th copy (black) at the delivery point instead
so after delivery i will have copies 2 & 3 instead of 3 & 4
the question i am asking is is this ok to be done should i fill in the special instruction as this is a request from my customer i have got the job from
what then if there is a claim for problems damages shortages etc with not leaving the correct form at the delivery point will it void the claim
Hi as already posted - the red copy is given to the place where the load was collected from -
the blue is for the consignee - the e on the end says the person expecting the load ( thats how i remember it anyway)
the green is the drivers copy which is returned to the sender via your office as POD proof of delivery - the white or black is a spare admin copy which you should keep with the green
as already said there is a space on the CMR for special instructions and also for drivers comments -
they can write what ever they like over the whole CMR but if you don’t fill in the drivers comments and sign it - then its not claused
so to summarise
red - sender
blue- delivery point
green - driver
white/black - admin
m34xpress:
the question of the corresponding colours is NOT the question iam asking !
I get a job from xyz ltd they send me collection del details
I collect job fill in CMR leave the top red copy at collection point
I then deliver job get signed stamped
with me so far ? this is where we are getting mixed up
xyz ( the folk i got the job from ) are asking they want the 2 nd copy which is the blue copy returned to them
I then have to either leave the black copy which is classed as spare or the driver copy green
now that i have been instructed to do this by xyz or i do not get paid
i would like to know if this makes any claim void as the chain of notes has been changed
and is this a common / legal practice
Yes because on most CMR’s it tells you who should get which copy.
Article 5
The consignment note shall be made out in three original copies signed by the sender and by the carrier. These signatures may be printed or replaced by the stamps of the sender and the carrier if the law of the country in which the consignment note has been made out so permits. The first copy shall be handed to the sender, the second shall accompany the goods and the third shall be retained by the carrier.
When the goods which are to be carried have to be loaded in different vehicles, or are of different kinds or are divided into different lots, the sender or the carrier shall have the right to require a separate consignment note to be made out for each vehicle used, or for each kind or lot of goods.
Article 12
The sender has the right to dispose of the goods, in particular by asking the carrier
to stop the goods in transit, to change the place at which delivery is to take place or to
deliver the goods to a consignee other than the consignee indicated in the consignment
note.
This right shall cease to exist when the second copy of the consignment note is
handed to the consignee or when the consignee exercises his right under article,
paragraph 1; from that time onwards the carrier shall obey the orders of the consignee.
The consignee shall, however, have the right of disposal from the time when the
consignment note is drawn up, if the sender makes an entry to that effect in the consignment
note.
These quotes were taken directly from the CMR Convention ratified in Geneva May 19th 1956, it can be read in it’s entirety here…
I feel i’m right in sticking to the way the cmr’s are set out and what all of you have said is the same but when the people that are paying you for the job request it a different way what am i supposed to do ?
its the legal standing i want to know more i will ring the rha on monday for clarification
the only other way to do it is 4 copies without the page numbers on them ( some big companies do them this way by computer fill in the details then print al in black and white)
Photo copies are quite acceptable by most companies
also the numbers on copies are irrelavent for payment
qite often i send copies or the wrong colours/numbers and we still get paid
regards
Steve
hi all. re cmrs 1st copy goes to the consignee i.e the customer you collect the goods from.the 2nd copy goes to the customer you deliver the goods too, the 3rd copy you rtn to your office and the 4th copy with it,any other copys reqd by any of the afformetioined partys you ask them to photocopy their reciept as many times as they like.i use this system and have used it for may years with no problem.hope this helps,
I’ve seen him send them back to get him the blue copy when they have tried to give him the green and black, even if this meant him waiting ages for it. None of these things have ever been a problem.
then let them have the copy they want. It’s no big deal and if everyone is happy because they have what they want or they haven’t scuppered customer relations, and get paid for the job in the process, then it’s all good.
