Clarification - Article 9

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Background:
a) I’m an agency driver.
b) I’ve been exclusively working for 1 company the last 4/5 weeks at location A.

Anyway, I get a call the other day to run to location B which is beyond location A, but I don’t have to drop in on location A and go straight to B. However location A is on the way, so I start the clock when passing the junction nearest and time myself to location B. Get to location B, shove in my digicard, and do a manual entry for the running time as per Article 9(2).

So I query the starting time the next day. To be told “you start your shift, when you get there (location B)”. “But, that’s travelling to take charge, I’ve added the time to my card”, I protest, adding “that’s in the hours regs, 561…” (And thinking I’m dealing with a trumpet.). Trumpet gives me a blank look and say “never heard of such a thing”.

Going on the background points, I’d say I’m totally right and should beat the trumpet round the heid with a copy of 561/2006. The fact that I’m agency doesn’t really materially alter the fact even though they may always have one of their trucks hanging around at location B, it’s not at my house, nor where I normally based. (That is if an agency driver has a normal base).

Opinions please from those that know better.

2

As agency you should have started that shift at location B, no need to clock the time from A to B unless you went to A first to sign in and receive your instructions.

What would you do if next week you work for a different client, would you start your shift from the same place you did that shift?

When I did agency I did a fair bit for DHL out of Hatfield but on occasions I worked out of either the Enfield or Milton Keynes depot but I didn’t start each of those shifts from Hatfield even though it was the same company.

3

If I understand this correctly you did a manual entry for the time it took you to travel from location A to location B.

I would say that according to article 9.2 if location A is the operational where you are normally based then the travelling time began when you left home and not when you passed location A, though I do understand why you would start the clock ticking at location A.

The question is this, is location A the operational centre where you are normally based ?
I assume that you are working for this firm on a temporary basis through the agency so I would say that this is not necessarily where you are normally based.

So I’d have to say that the agency bod is not such a trumpet after all :wink:

4

Firstly, thanks for the responses.

Coffeeholic:
As agency you should have started that shift at location B, no need to clock the time from A to B unless you went to A first to sign in and receive your instructions.

I get the gist of that. Didn’t have to sign in at A. (received instructions over the phone from client to run direct to B, not agency).

Coffeeholic:
What would you do if next week you work for a different client, would you start your shift from the same place you did that shift?

No. Different week, different client, I’ve accepted where the job is, etc., etc.

tachograph:
If I understand this correctly you did a manual entry for the time it took you to travel from location A to location B.

Yes, but only as I was virtually passing location A.

tachograph:
I would say that according to article 9.2 if location A is the operational where you are normally based then the travelling time began when you left home and not when you passed location A, though I do understand why you would start the clock ticking at location A.

Agreed in theory. I would do that in practice if route didn’t coincide so much. Call it splitting the difference :wink:

tachograph:
I assume that you are working for this firm on a temporary basis through the agency so I would say that this is not necessarily where you are normally based.

Well this is why I ask: If I were an employee, it would be clear cut as to where I am normally based and the clock would start ticking from leaving the house. In absence of that, given that all my shifts so far have originated from location A and I have exclusively done work for them for 5 weeks and the instruction to start there has come from the client, not the agency to run direct to location B.

tachograph:
So I’d have to say that the agency bod is not such a trumpet after all :wink:

Client bod, not agency. Perhaps a vuvuzela then? :grimacing:

tachograph:
The question is this, is location A the operational centre where you are normally based ?

This is the main point that everything hinges on. So as I understand it:
a) Coffeeholic’s view is that an agency driver has no normal base.
b) Tachograph’s take is that “this is not necessarily where you are normally based”

Would this guidance note 2 - Recording driver’s travelling time (pdf) have any bearing on the matter?

5

Personally I wouldn’t class the time from A to B as other work. A lot of companies have more than one operating centre and as an agency driver I see no reason why you shouldn’t be asked to work out of any of them (within reasonable traveling distance of course). If you’re not happy with the distance you have to travel to location B then you can always refuse the assignment.

In the eyes of the law as long as location B is an official operating centre of the company then time spent going to it from home does not need to be classed as other work. If this is the case then the “guidance note 2” that you linked has no bearing as right near the start it says “a specific place other than the employer’s operating centre”.

If location B is not an official operating centre then (leaving aside the fact that they shouldn’t be running trucks from there) you should in the eyes of the regs be on “other work” from the minute you left your house.

Paul

6

macplaxton:

tachograph:
The question is this, is location A the operational centre where you are normally based ?

This is the main point that everything hinges on. So as I understand it:
a) Coffeeholic’s view is that an agency driver has no normal base.
b) Tachograph’s take is that “this is not necessarily where you are normally based”

The way the agency will get out of this is quite simple. They will say “the shift at location B was a different assignment to the month you have spent at location A”. By doing that they confirm that location B is the operating centre where you are normally based for the purpose of that assignment and they get it their way.

Paul

7

I agree with Neil and Paul, the company could and probably would argue that when you were asked to start at location B you were receiving your assignment for that day rather than being sent to take charge of a vehicle as per the regulations.

If the difference between locations A and B is significantly greater than the usual time or distance to get to the shift starting location, I would have had a word with the company bod and asked if they were prepared to reimburse me in some way rather than hit them with the regulations :wink:

8

All I can say is we’re lucky ROG appears to have decided to take a break from posting for a while, this one would have run to many pages otherwise I think. :wink:

Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

9

Coffeeholic:
All I can say is we’re lucky ROG appears to have decided to take a break from posting for a while, this one would have run to many pages otherwise I think. :wink:

Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

:laughing: :laughing: OK, I’ll play ROG’s advocate… what’s the position if point “Z” becomes involved and I’m wearing blue socks on a Tuesday?

I’ll have you know that my URTU Rep recently won a case where the price of fish was an issue (I think) but the tribunal accepted the VOSA version of the industry Regs. (Or was it the industry version of the VOSA Regs, assuming that it wasn’t a court?)
Now we’re well on the way to 10 pages!! :laughing: :laughing: :wink: :grimacing:

If you’re reading this ROG, sorry, but I couldn’t resist. :blush:

10

Coffeeholic:
All I can say is we’re lucky ROG appears to have decided to take a break from posting for a while, this one would have run to many pages otherwise I think. :wink:

Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

look its me, :stuck_out_tongue: no comment of any use as you’ve covered it, that’s a first for me, not getting involved in a post :smiley: :smiley: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

11

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:
All I can say is we’re lucky ROG appears to have decided to take a break from posting for a while, this one would have run to many pages otherwise I think. :wink:

Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

look its me, :stuck_out_tongue:

Hi Del, it’s good to see you again. :smiley:

delboytwo:
no comment of any use as you’ve covered it,

Just you sit tight and take it easy mate, you’ve clearly got quite a fever!! The nurse I’ve sent for will be with you soon. :laughing: :wink: :grimacing:

12

dieseldave:

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:
All I can say is we’re lucky ROG appears to have decided to take a break from posting for a while, this one would have run to many pages otherwise I think. :wink:

Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

look its me, :stuck_out_tongue:

Hi Del, it’s good to see you again. :smiley:

delboytwo:
no comment of any use as you’ve covered it,

Just you sit tight and take it easy mate, you’ve clearly got quite a fever!! The nurse I’ve sent for will be with you soon. :laughing: :wink: :grimacing:

That’s very kind of you to send me a nurse, but the wife said it better be a male one :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

13

As an agency driver who works at various places either on a daily or weekly basis, I start my time from when I arrive at the contract. Only if they ask me to travel from there to another site would I count travel time as duty. Example, Asda didcot asks you to travel with another driver in a car to work from asda bristol. My duty would start from the time I arrive at didcot, and finish when I return to didcot. If my agency sent me directly to Asda Bristol, then my time would start from when i arrive at Bristol, assuming that I haven’t told them to go take a long running jump! :laughing:

14

Had a bit oof an issue with my clock card on summat simiar.

When trucks go in for service/inspection we get courtesy car, I go straight home in it.
On the morning I drive courtesy car straight to workshop, pick up truck and I’m waiting at depot gates at 6 am waiting to be loaded.

Normal working day (salaried without overtime) 6:30 am till 15:30 am = 8 hours + 1 hour break, + truck already loaded.

Service day 06:30 - 16:15 and following day start at 05:15 - 15:30. including driving to/from home. Manual entries made and clock card adjusted as such.

Boss was not happy that I was booking later & earlier because I was travelling to & from home (still don’t understand cos we are not paid for OT), I told him that the regs say thats how I should book it, he says leave courtesy car at work then, I say fine but don’t expect me to work overtime, doing it his way usually meant 2 hours over, loading & hitting traffic at the wrong time. He soon came round to my way of thinking, and as a bonus I’m using someone elses fuel!

As a side note my neighbours think I’m accident prone turning up with a courtesy car every 6 weeks :laughing: .

15

dieseldave:

Coffeeholic:
All I can say is we’re lucky ROG appears to have decided to take a break from posting for a while, this one would have run to many pages otherwise I think. :wink:

Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

:laughing: :laughing: OK, I’ll play ROG’s advocate… what’s the position if point “Z” becomes involved and I’m wearing blue socks on a Tuesday?

I’ll have you know that my URTU Rep recently won a case where the price of fish was an issue (I think) but the tribunal accepted the VOSA version of the industry Regs. (Or was it the industry version of the VOSA Regs, assuming that it wasn’t a court?)
Now we’re well on the way to 10 pages!! :laughing: :laughing: :wink: :grimacing:

If you’re reading this ROG, sorry, but I couldn’t resist. :blush:

PMSL! :smiley: :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: There’s still time though. sorry ROG :blush:

Ok, the reasoning could work either way depending on the exact details of the case (whether 1) location B is an operating centre and 2) whether location B could be considered a normal base for the driver). The extra running time was 55 mins there, 40 minutes back and 31 miles each way (on top of the existing 12 miles / 20 minutes and obviously to their advantage, not mine)

Providing that it’s no more than once in a blue moon, I’ll wear it for the greater good and just log it as suggested. If it happens more frequently, or eats excessively into daily/weekly rest, then they can take a running jump and find another mug to do it as the client is unlikely to re-imburse in any way. That’s where the company bod was coming from. I was suggesting that the time is to their advantage, not mine, so although it didn’t occur in this instance, if I was asked to go up there on another occasion and the extra time needed to get there significantly ate into a reduced daily rest, they could shove it.

Anyway, thanks for all the input

16

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:
Mind you, Del might be along any time now. :laughing: :wink:

look its me, :stuck_out_tongue: no comment of any use as you’ve covered it, that’s a first for me, not getting involved in a post :smiley: :smiley: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

So we’re not taking this to 5/6 pages before we all agree that the question was answered on the first page then :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

Hope the jobs going well mate :wink:

17

tachograph:
Hope the jobs going well mate :wink:

Its OK mate, long hours at times for no more pay :cry: if you get my meaning :wink: but managing my time or should I say trying London can be a pain at times but your can’t have everything good :laughing:

18

macplaxton:
The extra running time was 55 mins there, 40 minutes back and 31 miles each way (on top of the existing 12 miles / 20 minutes and obviously to their advantage, not mine)

I was going to ask if you also returned home from location B, as you did I think it sort of wraps it up clean as this would be no different to the agency sending you there, which of course would make it just another job at another location.

If it happens again perhaps a word with the agency to see if they will add a bit of time to your time-sheet to help cover the extra cost would be a good idea :wink: