A guest uses the hotel mini bus shuttle service, doesn’t pay for the trips directly but but can travel as a consiquence of being a paying guest at the hotel. I have catagory D1 with ‘not for hire and reward’ are these guests effectively paying for the bus trip or not?
cheers.
global.
Don’t think so
You mean D1.
No, because they’re not paying for it directly, they’re paying for the room, the bus is a courtesy 
global:
A guest uses the hotel mini bus shuttle service, doesn’t pay for the trips directly but but can travel as a consiquence of being a paying guest at the hotel. I have catagory C1 with ‘not for hire and reward’ are these guests effectively paying for the bus trip or not?
cheers.
global.
If the hotel is offering the minibus as a free service to guests then the driver can use a D1 with 101 code to drive it
If the minibus service is listed as an inclusive service in the bill and not a free service then that is different as the guest has paid for it even if they never use it
Surely if a driver is being paid to drive a minibus he must not have the 101 restriction? It doesn’t matter if the passengers pay directly or get the service as a courtesy, if the driver gets paid then it is for “hire or reward”
minibus.ltd.uk/pcv-minibus-advice-web4.html
"ROG:
If the hotel is offering the minibus as a free service to guests then the driver can use a D1 with 101 code to drive it
As the hotel is a commercial operation it can’t be ‘free’ can it? Even if it’s not paid directly it is somewhere down the line so IMO an unrestriced licence is needed.
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As the hotel is a commercial operation it can’t be ‘free’ can it? Even if it’s not paid directly it is somewhere down the line so IMO an unrestriced licence is needed.
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This. I currently work in passenger transport 
and it’s a commonly used example in training re minibus licencing - minibus transport is seen as Hire and Reward if offered to hotel guests even if not charged seperately to their stay. By training btw I don’t mean the kind of bull(zb)ers who seem to be teaching DCPC courses lol.
This comes up with private schools quite a lot.The get out is to not charge for the use of the bus and get all of the bus costs from the school general budget.I think that its still wrong if the driver is being paid an hourly rate then he is being rewarded.
I don’t think it matters how the thing is paid for (i.e. whether passengers pay a fare or it is provided as a “perk” of staying in the hotel at no extra charge). What is important is whether the driver is being paid anything other than “out of pocket expenses”. If he is driving it as an unpaid volunteer (albeit with his expenses covered) then all is OK. If the driver is being paid to drive it (even though his main employment is as say, a groundsman) then it is “for hire or reward” and a full D1 licence is required.
And DCPC
So, in what circumstances would ordinary D1 WITHOUT DCPC be OK, but D1 (101) would not be OK? Are there any?
They are the same… D1 not H+R will be the same after September as D1 without a DCPC
If a Scout Troop owned a mini-bus then the driver if a volunteer I.E. not being paid in any manner could drive the vehicle in connection with scout activities.The P in DCPC stands for professional so not required in this instance.
Employees who are being paid to do a job such as a school teacher of perhaps a waiter in a hotel but then volunteer to drive a minibus where the passengers have not specifically paid for that service are not deemed to be driving it for hire or reward so a D1 with a 101 restriction is legal
If this was not the case then a person who is paid 24/7 365 such as a member of the armed forces or the prime minister could never be allowed to drive one as a volunteer on a D1 101
Also D1 (101) of course allows private use such as driving family members to weddings as ‘designated driver’ & to sporting events, providing no charge is made…I think this allowance is widely abused one way or another. Post 1997 licence holders don’t have this entitlement & it seems there will be a clamp down on abuse starting from 09/09/2013 to coincide with DCPC checks!!! Interesting times ahead.
Some legitimate PCV minibus operators are missing out on work which is done by unlicensed D1(101) people e.g. airport runs, nightclubs etc. etc. Or they are seriously undercutting the legit boys!!!
ROG:
global:
A guest uses the hotel mini bus shuttle service, doesn’t pay for the trips directly but but can travel as a consiquence of being a paying guest at the hotel. I have catagory C1 with ‘not for hire and reward’ are these guests effectively paying for the bus trip or not?
cheers.
global.If the hotel is offering the minibus as a free service to guests then the driver can use a D1 with 101 code to drive it
If the minibus service is listed as an inclusive service in the bill and not a free service then that is different as the guest has paid for it even if they never use it
If its a free service to guests, it is offered within the cost of their stay whether taken up or not, in which case it is hire or reward. I could be wrong. Do they have an O licence?
From my view point it shouldn’t make any difference whether passengers are considered paying passengers or not, they are still a vulnerable cargo.
I think pcv tests have been dumbed down too far just for convenience sake.
“Do they have an O licence?”
Some of the details as I understand them:
Operators licence
The interviewer glazed over when I asked about it.
Transport manager.
Referred to some guy who also takes responsibility for arranging guest movements outwith the mini bus schedule answering telephone calls etc, but he don’t believe he operates as a transport manager in the commercial sense.
Tachographs.
Yes, so perhaps they do have an Operators CPC, but not confirmed.
global:
A guest uses the hotel mini bus shuttle service, doesn’t pay for the trips directly but but can travel as a consiquence of being a paying guest at the hotel. I have catagory D1 with ‘not for hire and reward’ are these guests effectively paying for the bus trip or not?
cheers.
global.
What’s your position in this hotel, do you work their, own the place or what ?
As far as I can see whether the guests are paying for the service isn’t the only thing that matters, I would have thought what also matters is whether or not you are driving the bus for hire or reward, reward can come in may different forms.
Transcription from another bus related Forum from a PSV and Taxi operator who is plagued by illegal competition in the private hire trade.
NB.This was written before the announcement regarding DCPC for heavy vehicle mechanics.
"Following publication today of my letter in RouteOne trade magazine, I had a call from someone in Mansfield who clarified the situation regarding Community Transport Drivers licence requirements. There’s been a recent meeting with the CPT, Lord Lester, the EU commissioner and other interested parties.
A full announcement will be made within the next couple of weeks, but the gist of the matter is that from 10th September 2013 ALL drivers of vehicles with more than 8 passenger seats used for hire and reward, and the term “hire and reward” is now including “Community Transport” and “not for profit” organisations are deemed as running “for hire and reward”.
As a result those drivers, whether paid or not, will require D1 (psv) licences and need a driver CPC card to carry on driving. From the same date, bus mechanics and others involved in the transfer of buses will need the same!
As a separate but related matter, there is to be a final decision on the status of CT organisations and the amount of government subsidy given to those organisations. Look at Hackney CT, now with a turnover of £50m a year! It is likely that the decision will result in such subsidies being made illegal; it is suggested that any subsidies will have to be repaid!
It is also likely that volunteer car drivers (such as “free” hospital transport) will need to be licensed as “private hire” or “taxi” drivers to continue their operations as their activities are deemed to be “for hire and reward”, even if there is no profit involved.
Hopefully this will see the end of the section 19 and section 22 minibus fiasco that has seen over 100,000 new s19 permits being issued last year alone! compared with the total of about 90,000 psv O licences issued, this shows the size of the CT problem."