Casual Drivers

I do casual work for a local plant hire company, zero hours, just to fill in when things get busy. I’m self employed.

However a compliance person has been engaged to make sure every i is dotted and t crossed.

You know the drill - paperwork, stuff on notice boards, lists of drivers cpc expiry yadda yadda.

Apparently because I am not directly employed or supplied by a bona fide agency I have to have some kind of O licence. Or some such - my boss doesn’t really understand.

There must hundreds of firms out there is employ guys to help out when pressed, ex-employees or in my case a friend.

Anybody heard of this? Sounds like rubbish to me - agencies do not have O licences or TM’s.

Thanks in advance.

You don’t need an O licence as you’re just the person driving it. The O licence applies to the vehicle, not the driver.

Socketset:
I do casual work for a local plant hire company, zero hours, just to fill in when things get busy. I’m self employed.

However a compliance person has been engaged to make sure every i is dotted and t crossed.

You know the drill - paperwork, stuff on notice boards, lists of drivers cpc expiry yadda yadda.

Apparently because I am not directly employed or supplied by a bona fide agency I have to have some kind of O licence. Or some such - my boss doesn’t really understand.

There must hundreds of firms out there is employ guys to help out when pressed, ex-employees or in my case a friend.

Anybody heard of this? Sounds like rubbish to me - agencies do not have O licences or TM’s.

Thanks in advance.

Sounds like a “compliance person” who doesn’t know his/her arse from their elbow!!!

Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk

Big Truck:

Socketset:
I do casual work for a local plant hire company, zero hours, just to fill in when things get busy. I’m self employed.

However a compliance person has been engaged to make sure every i is dotted and t crossed.

You know the drill - paperwork, stuff on notice boards, lists of drivers cpc expiry yadda yadda.

Apparently because I am not directly employed or supplied by a bona fide agency I have to have some kind of O licence. Or some such - my boss doesn’t really understand.

There must hundreds of firms out there is employ guys to help out when pressed, ex-employees or in my case a friend.

Anybody heard of this? Sounds like rubbish to me - agencies do not have O licences or TM’s.

Thanks in advance.

Sounds like a “compliance person” who doesn’t know his/her arse from their elbow!!!

Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk

There are lots of them, Their Grannies didnt stop at one!

The issue is about being self employed - assuming you are only being a driver and are not an owner driver.
The debate about occasional drivers being s/e or employed is the main point. It almost reads you’re on a zero hour contract which could be the answer.
It’s likely you or the operator is getting confused about your needing an o licence - if you are only a driver then no, but if you’re owner driver, then obviously you would need one.
Perhaps they have a compliance person in because the operator has not been compliant or the TM wanted some support in getting the compliance message over to the operator.

Socketset:
my boss doesn’t really understand.

Clearly so. He should ask the compliance person exactly what is wrong so he can correctly rectify it.

If the vehicle owner has an O-licence, then the vehicle has one, and you don`t need to have a second one to drive it.

There may be a problem with you being “self employed”?

Socketset:
There must hundreds of firms out there is employ guys to help out when pressed,

Yes there are: many companies employ casual workers.
Are you sure you are genuinely self-employed? And not a temporary worker?

But whatever, ask the person who says there is a problem to explain what it is: that is what they are paid to do!

I am genuinely s/e.

Maybe the following extract from the “advisor” will make things clearer - it will certainly help in understanding the rubbish offered,

We spoke about drivers needing to be directly employed by your company and having contracts in place. If they are not directly employed then they must either hold their own operators licence or be from a bona fide agency. This is a requirement that the Traffic Commissioner expects to be adhered to and at a roadside stop HMRC would check this.

So there you go - I believe it to be utter nonsense and I have told my boss so.

HMRC ? Really.

Of course you can’t have two O licences on one business.

Socketset:
I am genuinely s/e.

Maybe the following extract from the “advisor” will make things clearer - it will certainly help in understanding the rubbish offered,

We spoke about drivers needing to be directly employed by your company and having contracts in place. If they are not directly employed then they must either hold their own operators licence or be from a bona fide agency. This is a requirement that the Traffic Commissioner expects to be adhered to and at a roadside stop HMRC would check this.

So there you go - I believe it to be utter nonsense and I have told my boss so.

HMRC ? Really.

Of course you can’t have two O licences on one business.

I dont know *your* circumstances. Im not having ago at you personally.
But it possible for someone to be a self-employed gardener, but also have a casual job as a driver.
There are very few self employed drivers.

I have once been on an inspection by DVSA/Police and HMRC…it happens…but only once in 40 plus years!

Socketset:
I am genuinely s/e.

Maybe the following extract from the “advisor” will make things clearer - it will certainly help in understanding the rubbish offered,

We spoke about drivers needing to be directly employed by your company and having contracts in place. If they are not directly employed then they must either hold their own operators licence or be from a bona fide agency. This is a requirement that the Traffic Commissioner expects to be adhered to and at a roadside stop HMRC would check this.

So there you go - I believe it to be utter nonsense and I have told my boss so.

HMRC ? Really.

Of course you can’t have two O licences on one business.

Ohhhh, now I get it. He’s right, they do expect you to have an o-licence…because you can’t pass the IR35 requirements to be self-employed if you don’t have a lorry!

Socketset:
I am genuinely s/e…

Can you confirm a self employed DRIVER who drivers the employer’s vehicle?

With the usual questions about being employee, can you say you’re not?

I’d.of.thought being self.emoyed or employed via an agency is same.thing basically.
Just all the money goes direct to you instead of to the agency who then take there cut before passing the rest onto you…
Either way my take on this .do you own the vehicle are you responsable for the tax insurance etc. ? If not then you don’t need a licence

I do spannering work also - driving is just a part of my income - not wholly my income.

I also have motor trade road risk insurance for vehicle repair.

Hope that helps.

Socketset:
I do spannering work also - driving is just a part of my income - not wholly my income.

I also have motor trade road risk insurance for vehicle repair.

Hope that helps.

gov.uk/working-for-yourself
“You can be both employed and self-employed at the same time”
“You’re probably self-employed if you:
run your business for yourself and take responsibility for its success or failure
have several customers at the same time
can decide how, where and when you do your work
can hire other people at your own expense to help you or to do the work for you
provide the main items of equipment to do your work
are responsible for finishing any unsatisfactory work in your own time
charge an agreed fixed price for your work
sell goods or services to make a profit”

Your spannering will probably include all (or most) of the above? But does your driving?
Do you
Provide the main items, a truck?
Decide start times?
Provide a different driver and you pay them if you arent available? If you get the flu, and send in a mate, is that OK?
Are you paid per load?
If the job falls over and you`re on a night out, do you receive no extra for it?

If youre given their truck, use their vehicle and GIT insurance, they pay for the fuel, paid by the hour or day, youre very possibly employed in that job.
That doesn`t affect your self-employed status when you use your tools, electric, move vehicles to/fro workshop.

TTBOMK, as Lucy says, you can’t legally be SE in this situation if you’re driving their vehicle, this is covered in Statutory Document No5, under the section entitled “Employees”, it clearly states their O-licence could be at riskif they endorse you working in situations like this:

gov.uk/government/publicati … plications

This is really about HMRC, and I would not claim to be any kind of expert on that topic, but AFAICS the only way this would legally work is for them to pay you “through their books”.

The difference between Agency and SE is that the agency will ensure the tax and NI deductions are made. If you’re properly SE then you’ll have an accountant who should surely be able to advise on the right way to make this work.

Zac_A:
TTBOMK, as Lucy says, you can’t legally be SE in this situation if you’re driving their vehicle, this is covered in Statutory Document No5, under the section entitled “Employees”, it clearly states their O-licence could be at riskif they endorse you working in situations like this:

gov.uk/government/publicati … plications

This is really about HMRC, and I would not claim to be any kind of expert on that topic, but AFAICS the only way this would legally work is for them to pay you “through their books”.

The difference between Agency and SE is that the agency will ensure the tax and NI deductions are made. If you’re properly SE then you’ll have an accountant who should surely be able to advise on the right way to make this work.

Exactly. I’ve done a good bit of work on this over the last couple of years (transport hack) and the Sole Trader route for “freelance” drivers is, to all intents and purposes, closed. Employing yourself through your own Ltd Co is still an option, but only for small operators (fewer than 50 employees and/or less than £10.2M turnover) - with my ex-driver hat on, frankly the combination of “small operator” and “not on their books” sends shivers up my spine, but YMMV.

Why not go zero hours contract? You can do driving as an employee as well as for other self employed work.
The whole thing about casual driving is around it often being full time. The odd day here and there could be tolerated as long as tgd driver has had induction etc to protect the O licence etc. but as others have said, popping in to do a few shifts off the books or cash (allegedly) have all but disappeared.

Zac_A:
TTBOMK, as Lucy says, you can’t legally be SE in this situation if you’re driving their vehicle, this is covered in Statutory Document No5, under the section entitled “Employees”, it clearly states their O-licence could be at riskif they endorse you working in situations like this:

gov.uk/government/publicati … plications

This is really about HMRC, and I would not claim to be any kind of expert on that topic, but AFAICS the only way this would legally work is for them to pay you “through their books”.

The difference between Agency and SE is that the agency will ensure the tax and NI deductions are made. If you’re properly SE then you’ll have an accountant who should surely be able to advise on the right way to make this work.

From your link: I`ve high-lighted a few bits that may be most relevant
Employees
The First-Tier Tribunal (Tax) has considered the employment status of drivers. Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs (‘HMRC’) raised concerns that haulage operators were wrongly treating workers as self-employed or hiring workers through their own companies in ways that did not comply with tax laws. It is now well understood that it will be rare for someone to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver. HMRC is aware that some companies wrongly believe that anti-avoidance legislation does not apply and that HMRC cannot pursue workers, agents and their companies.

Regulation 13A of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 requires all agency workers, who sign up to an employment business after 6 April 2020, to be given a ‘Key Information Document’ which details, amongst other things, the name of the employment business. Agency workers are now also entitled to equal pay once they have satisfied the 12-week qualifying period.

You can find out if IR35 applies on GOV.UK. (see gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual … al/esm3505)

HMRC has issued detailed guidance on employment status and has published a tool to help determine a worker’s employment status for tax purposes. Transport providers cannot claim a commercial advantage by claiming that labour-only drivers are not employees, just because they are engaged on a job-by-job basis with no guarantee of future work. The contract for each engagement may well amount to a contract of employment and that the regularity of work done may indicate that there is a continuous contract.

Here are links which apply to all drivers of commercial vehicles that carry goods, passengers or livestock:

the section in HMRC’s internal manual on employment status that covers lorry drivers generally
the section in HMRC’s internal manual on employment status that covers lorry driver leasing agreements
the section in HMRC’s internal manual on employment status that covers drivers of commercial vehicles- short-term engagements
First additional section in HMRC’s internal manual on employment status
Second additional section in HMRC’s internal manual on employment
Third additional section in HMRC’s internal manual on employment status
check employment status for tax
From 6 April 2021 many more workers came within scope of off-payroll working rules (the off-payroll working rules have been in place since 2000. They are designed to make sure that an individual who works like an employee, but through their own limited company (usually a personal service company) or other intermediary, pays broadly the same Income Tax and National Insurance contributions as other employees) (IR35) and those self-employed who work for a company as if they were an employee, may have to pay the same level of tax that permanent members of staff pay. The responsibility for working out if IR35 provisions apply will move to the organisation contracting for that individual’s services.

You can find out if IR35 applies on GOV.UK. (see gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual … al/esm3505

The tax position is comparable to that of drivers working for taxi companies who have been found to be workers and not self-employed (Uber BV and Others v Aslam and Others [2021] UKSC 5, Autoclenz Ltd v Belcher [2011] UKSC 41 - – “the true agreement will often have to be gleaned from all the circumstances of the case, of which the written agreement is only a part”) for the purposes of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (s.230(3) sets out the two limbs where an individual is considered a ‘worker’ for the purposes of the Employment Rights Act 1996) and within the meaning of the Working Time Regulations 1998 (UKEAT/0037/18/BA Addison Lee Ltd v Mr M Lange and Others.

In finding that a courier making deliveries via the business’s mobile app, has worker status under the Employment Rights Act 1996, the Tribunal flagged the need to consider whether the individual is under an obligation to perform the services personally or whether they have an unfettered right of substitution, which has an effect on the obligation of personal performance (see UKEAT/0219/18/BA Stuart Delivery Ltd v Mr Warren Augustine). The applicable principles of personal performance were summarised into five categories by Sir Terrance Etherton MR in the Court of Appeal decision of Pimlico Plumbers (upheld on appeal to the Supreme Court) and 2018 UKSC 29:

an unfettered right to substitute another person to do the work or perform the services is inconsistent with an undertaking to do so personally;

a conditional right to substitute another person may or may not be inconsistent with personal performance depending upon the conditionality. It will depend on the precise contractual arrangements and, in particular, the nature and degree of any fetter on a right of substitution or, using different language, the extent to which the right of substitution is limited or occasional;

a right of substitution only when the contractor is unable to carry out the work will, subject to any exceptional facts, be consistent with personal performance;

a right of substitution limited only by the need to show that the substitute is as qualified as the contractor to do the work, whether or not that entails a particular procedure, will, subject to any exceptional facts, be inconsistent with personal performance;

a right to substitute only with the consent of another person who has an absolute and unqualified discretion to withhold consent will be consistent with personal performance.

The Upper Tribunal has held that the legitimacy of a driver’s employment status may be fact specific. In 2018/066 Abus Ltd, the Upper Tribunal clarified that the focus of section 81(1)(b)(ii) in the 1981 Act is not on control but on the identity of the person for whom the driver works. The Upper Tribunal has also reviewed the tax and employment position of goods drivers (see 2019/054 Bridgestep Ltd and Tom Bridge, confirmed in 2019/069 GS Couriers (Nottingham) Ltd and Others). In that case the employment clauses suggesting that the drivers had a degree of control were undermined by the reality and as described in the Driver Handbook. The Upper Tribunal raised concern that the arrangement was highly questionable, if not a sham, as the company and transport manager had abdicated their responsibilities for ensuring that the transport operation was compliant and safe, in order to save money.

The long-established test for self-employment was set out in the case of Ready Mix Concrete (see Ready Mix Concrete (South East) Ltd v Minister of Pensions and National Insurance [1968] 2 QB 497 and involves three key hurdles:

is the worker subject to a right of control? If there is no right of control of any kind, then you will not have a contract of service. However, it was also made clear in the judgment that, although a right of control is an important factor in determining employment status, it is not necessarily a determining factor;

does the service have to be provided by that individual? However, the court did indicate a limited right of delegation may not be inconsistent with a contract of service;

are the other factors present are consistent with a contract of service? Factors such as ownership of significant assets, financial risk and the opportunity to profit are not consistent with a contract of service.

In general, someone is self-employed if they are in business on their own account and bear the responsibility for the success or failure of that business. Conversely, they will be employed if they personally work under the control of their engager and do not run the risks of having a business themselves (see Statutory Guidance and Statutory Directions on Impounding).

Where a traffic commissioner encounters driver engagement, which does not appear to meet the prevailing tax requirements, they will wish to consider the impact on the level playing field within the transport industries, which underpins compliance. In the first instance they might consider allowing opportunity for the operator to ensure that relevant drivers comply with the HMRC guidance on employment. The operator might offer an undertaking and specify the date by which the operator will ensure compliance. (See Statutory Guidance and Statutory Directions on Good Repute and Fitness).

Ok, so if I set myself up as Socketset Driver Hire (sole proprietor) and give out invoices and still get paid via bacs as I am now, does this swerve the rules?

I don’t understand the difference between me on zero hours paid on the books via bank transfer for as and when work and getting a bloke from an “agency”.

Just so to make it clear to all I am a genuinely self employed person and have been since 1994, have annual accounts submitted and tax paid. I also pay for my medicals, supply work wear and pay for my dpc.

This stuff about being in charge of your own hours doesn’t fly either or else plumbers would have the right to turn up at 3am or get people to cancel their holidays to fit round them.

Anybody can set themselves up as an agency just like estate agents or nail technicians. No transport qualifications required whatsoever.

I can understand the govt wanting to stamp out transactions which involve grubby 20’s being handed over covered in ■■■ ash (like they seem to think all s/e people are paid) but this isn’t the case.

It has to be remembered that the govt absolutely detests s/e workers because it’s not so straight forward for them to get their sticky paws on perceived tax due.

If it wouldn’t ■■■■ the economy up they would ban it outright.

My thanks to those who have kindly responded (some at great length) - I suspect there will be more than one or two folk out there in my situation who have done the same as myself and work part time who are finding this thread an interesting read.

Finally, it’s sad to think you can’t have a friend ring up and ask you to deliver a few machines for him from time to time, a simple request yet mired in red tape.

Socketset:
Ok, so if I sk all s/e people are paid) but this isn’t the case.
read.

Finally, it’s sad to think you can’t have a friend ring up and ask you to deliver a few machines for him from time to time, a simple request yet mired in red tape.

It looks li my e you V extend pretty much all the replies in error. Yes, you can drive For mate, yes you can do other work , but to protect their licence, you and they heed to follow the same rules. Fairly simple really.

Compliance individual never mentioned IR35 at all - if she had this thread would not have existed.