Can I run without a digi card or not?

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

As usual I left my tacho in the digi box thingy half in/out ready for my next shift and my unit has been sent out last night without any of us knowing so the driver has took my card :smiley: My supervisor is telling me I need to run and says I can do a manual write up on the digi paper roll as I go along in the day but when I lost my card a few months ago VOSA told me I was not to run without one unless the card is lost and they are notified and I have a ref number from them for proof in case I get stopped. Just trying to get confirmation now on wether or not I can go as if I do get tugged and they start having a go or talk of fines I know the guy telling me to run will wash his hands completely should I be in the ■■■■.

2

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3

Bosshog:
No you can not run without a digi card or drive a truck with a Analogue tacho unless it has been reported damaged or stolen to vosa

This is what I thought, but im being told to go :unamused: Trying to get hold of vosa on phone now, and ive been moaned at for leaving it in there even though there are 2 spare units in the yard both not being used and mine has gone out with agency driver with all my gear/satnav in so now its my fault :stuck_out_tongue:

4

Can I report it lost, then un report it later on today when I have finished shift? :smiley:

5

OllieNotts:
Can I report it lost, then un report it later on today when I have finished shift? :smiley:

I don’t see why not - just say it’s been mislaid

6

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7

Lost stolen or damaged… and its not really lost is it! I dare say you wont be applying for a new one as you are expecting this one back, and if you were it would be fraudulent?

8

I was worried about the fraud thing, but I would be keeping a record it is a genuine problem. Will see what they say, ive tried to phone digi card line to enuire and they arent open yet as its cut me off at point of saying hello :unamused:

9

OllieNotts:
Will see what they say, :unamused:

They just did :wink:

I would get direct clarification from them if you are unsure though.

10

zippy!:

OllieNotts:
Will see what they say, :unamused:

They just did :wink:

I would get direct clarification from them if you are unsure though.

You a wheel tapper then?
Funny thing is the supervisor thats saying I can thinks he knows all but I know that if he was 100% he would tell me to run or face action from above so I dont really believe he is confident that if I am stopped and I will “get away with it” and as it is me paying the fine should I get one I dont see why I should risk it.
Anyone know what would happen to me if I was caught running with what is effectively a notepad to write down my daily duties?

11

OllieNotts:
Anyone know what would happen to me if I was caught running with what is effectively a notepad to write down my daily duties?

By not being in possession of your digi-card is a failure to produce records offence, resulting in a minimum of a 45hr driving prohibition and a £200 fine. It’s all very well your boss saying he’ll pay any fine, but this mean you’re stuck miles from home for 2 days, and this offence would also be recorded against his O license which may bite him on the backside at a later date!

12

The weathers nice today, enjoy your day off. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

I guess you have learnt your lesson and won’t be leaving the card in vehicles in future. You take a bit of a risk doing that, I don’t suppose you would leave your licence lying about in a vehicle for anyone to steal or use and the digi card is as important as the licence. Leaving it half in and out the unit can bring it’s own problems, I know a driver who did that and on climbing into the vehicle hit his head on the card and snapped it, the card that is not his head.

13

i just cant believe the agency driver didnt hand the card in before he left the yard[ he would have had to take it out completely to put his card in], i had exactly the same the other week, card left in tacho , half in ,half out by accident, just handed it in to office , its so easy it beyond belief he went with it :unamused: :unamused:

14

Ollie, you have a PM and a useful phone number.

By not being in possession of your digi-card is a failure to produce records offence, resulting in a minimum of a 45hr driving prohibition and a £200 fine. It’s all very well your boss saying he’ll pay any fine, but this mean you’re stuck miles from home for 2 days, and this offence would also be recorded against his O license which may bite him on the backside at a later date!

Not quite sure we’re correct with that one. Driving a digitally equipped vehicle that is being used ‘in scope’ of EU drivers hours without being in possession of a valid driver card is; ‘fail to keep a record,’ not ‘fail to produce.’ Although the Penalty Level is the same for both offences at £200. Why would the Prohibition Notice be for a minimum of 45 hours? The Prohibition Notice may only cover the rest period that cannot be ‘seen’ so that will be a daily or weekly rest. By the sound of this post it would be a weekly rest. However, the Prohibition can only be issued for the minimum period, which in this case would have to be 24 hours and not 45. You can only Prohibit for what you can prove and as it stands you cannot prove the negative; that the 45 hours wasn’t taken.

Now, onto the thorny subject of can Ollie drive in the first place? Article 15 of 3821/85 was modified by Article 26.4 to say;

Article 15 shall be amended as follows:
– in paragraph 1, the following subparagraph shall be
added:
‘Where a driver card is damaged, malfunctions, or is
not in the possession of the driver, the driver shall:

(a) at the start of his journey, print out the details
of the vehicle the driver is driving, and shall
enter onto that printout:
(i) details that enable the driver to be
identified (name, driver card or driver’s
licence number), including his signature;
(ii) the periods referred to in paragraph 3,
second indent (b), (c) and (d);

(b) at the end of his journey, print out the
information relating to periods of time
recorded by the recording equipment, record
any periods of other work, availability and rest
undertaken since the printout that was made
at the start of the journey, where not recorded
by the tachograph, and mark on that document
details that enable the driver to be
identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence
number), including the driver’s signature.’,

I recall a very lengthy legal argument a couple of years ago as to what Art. 26.4 was all about. On the one hand the phrase ‘not in his possession’ could be taken to mean; not physically with the driver at the time in question due to it having been lost or stolen. However, it could , as an alternative mean; whilst not physically with the driver it was actually sitting at home on the sideboard with his other possessions. It would seem reasonable to assume that Ollie fully expected his truck and driver card to be parked in the yard when he went in to work this morning. This view is reinforced by him leaving his sat nav in the vehicle, an expensive piece of kit at the best of times. Ultimately this is one that the Courts would have to sort out as the wording of the Regulation is ambiguous. They could look at it very strictly and say that you cannot drive without the card unless it is lost or stolen. Alternatively they may look at the case and say that as there was ‘no mischief’ intended then the keeping of printed records would suffice in these circumstances.

If Ollie was following the procedure laid down in Art 26.4 I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and wave him on his merry way. However, I would be requiring his employer to e-mail me a copy of the data downloaded from the card so that the details may be checked. Of course Ollie could just say that the card is lost but he hasn’t yet reported it to DVLA. He has 7 days to do so. If the card was found on day two what is the problem as he still has his printouts for the ‘lost day?’

Finally, that ‘write the stuff on a notepad’ idea from the Transport Manager would just get everybody in more trouble. The only correct record in these circumstances is printouts as described in Art. 26.4.

15

Thanks for the pm, I didnt need any more info after what you have wrote thanks very much and I will keep your number for future reference if that is ok with you? I have not been pressured into going out after ive told them what info I was given and they have got an agency driver in to take a different unit out. Now for my troubles I may have to go to heathrow to pick a load up that seems to me a “job for sake of doiong a job” as it only came up after all this and is in house work anyway, we have a night trunker who runs up from there which it would fit on tonight and I would be out till 6-8pm depending on traffic by time he comes in…ouch :smiley: it is one of those things and because of my unit never going anywhere else I never thought it to be an issue but I will leave my card in the office with my papers every day now just in case :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks for the quick info once again the knowledge from guys on here is impecable and I salute you for it :wink:

16

OllieNotts:
Now for my troubles I may have to go to heathrow to pick a load up that seems to me a “job for sake of doiong a job” as it only came up after all this

Where abouts near Heathrow you going to?
Im based about a mile from the end of the runway… :stuck_out_tongue:

17

DAF95XF:

OllieNotts:
Now for my troubles I may have to go to heathrow to pick a load up that seems to me a “job for sake of doiong a job” as it only came up after all this

Where abouts near Heathrow you going to?
Im based about a mile from the end of the runway… :stuck_out_tongue:

Sky Port Drive in Harmmondsworth we own most of the units on there :smiley: WT Transport, not a bad firm to be fair on the whole leave us to it when things are running smoothly, I just cant be arsed to come all the way down there after sitting bored here from 6am to 12pm or longer I am ready for bed now im that bloody bored :frowning:

18

OllieNotts:
I will leave my card in the office with my papers every day now just in case :stuck_out_tongue:

To be honest I wouldn’t trust my card ie my livelihood with anyone but me, why not just keep it with you.

19

tachograph:

OllieNotts:
I will leave my card in the office with my papers every day now just in case :stuck_out_tongue:

To be honest I wouldn’t trust my card ie my livelihood with anyone but me, why not just keep it with you.

Because im the type who “forgets things” and it was easier to have the routine of leaving it in the machine, the office is under lock and key and only 4-5 drivers here so no one here would take/use it. Im going to skelmersdale for a 4pm tip now which means there is a good chance im out all night unless they will tip me early should I even get there early im still waiting for my unit to come back :unamused: :frowning: Not in the mood for this, easy day has turned to crap and found out yesterday the g/f is pregnant so wanna be home with her and not being messed around here.

20

OllieNotts:
found out yesterday the g/f is pregnant

Is it congrats :smiley: or is it a ‘Jeremy Kyle’ :blush: :question: :wink: