I cannot and am not arguing against any of what you have said, the jihadi war did not do the damage to Aleppo as that was down to the Russian and the allied troops. Each took it’s turn in different areas of Aleppo, the jihadi war has been raging for years well before this full on assault. Whilst Russia was destroying that country in the name of eradicating ISIS, the rest of the world stood by and became spectators allowing Putin a free hand and doing the work the CIA had created to begin with. That is all now done and which ever way you want to paint it, it is down to all involved to put that country right again. Regardless of how people are travelling to get to us the fact remains that those people can no longer live in that city and even in that country after our intervention. It should neve have happened same way as Afghanistan and all of the other middle east conflicts that have been interfered in, it is down to oil and that is all, nothing to do with anything else. We should have funded Greece to take care of the situation better and other “safe” countries rather than allowing the Calais camp to exist.
UKtramp:
muckles:
I don’t agree with her for several reasons.
A, The wars you sight were not universally support by the British people, many pointed out the dossier that lead us to war was fake news, something that has been proved in subsequent inquiries.
The wars are the establishment’s war, not the peoples; they went ahead despite major protests and great unease by much of the population. The only thing we need to apologise for is not sending Tony Blair and those politicians that supported him from all parties to prison.B. The people camped in Calais and other ports, saying they are escaping tyranny and persecution, are already in safe countries where they could ask for asylum and would be treated according to UN guidelines for processing asylum claims.
C. According to an UNHCR report about the influx of Migrants into Europe from the various routes, states that 74% of those are on the Central Mediterranean route, that’s basically those coming form Libya, the nationality breakdown of those people who’ve made it to Italy from Nigeria, 14%, Bangladesh 12%, Guinea and Ivory Coast both at 11% and Gambia 8%. People from Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Libya don’t even make it into the top 10. Of the over 37,000 people arriving in the first 4 months, 28,000 were men over 18. Of the 175,000 people in reception centres in Italy 47,000 had claimed for Asylum. Surely if they were escaping tyranny why are more not asking for asylum when they have got to a reception centre run by a European government?
D. It’s obvious than many of these people are economic migrants not escaping tyranny, for criminal gangs, it has become a lucrative business, either by taking money from the migrants during their journey into Europe or by exploiting them when they get here. The UNHCR was concerned about the reports that many of the women were being trafficked for the ■■■ industry.
Agree on all the above, however I said it was down to our prime minister to apologise and not her. She is highlighting the consequences of waging war in other countries. Allepo in Syria was raised to the ground and not many friendly countries to stop off in who were sympathetic, Britain played a big part in this as an allied country that destroyed this place. You cannot cause that much devastation and simply walk away. The war should never have gone ahead to begin with in my opinion, everyone was warned about destabalising the middle east, westerners are not welcome at the best of times let alone sending troops in. The camps in Calais is a british problem caused by our own politicians. The French even blame us and Angela Merkel has poured petrol on an already blazing fire.
If you agree on ‘all the above’ ( economic migration not refuge ) then why do you still keep on with the same old crap that it’s all our fault and we should let them all in as as recompense.While even if it was ‘refuge’ then there’s no reason why they can’t find a better solution locally within their own culture within the Arab/Asian world.As for the French their government is on the same mission as Merkel of instigating Asian and African mass movement into Europe and the dilution of its indigenous demographic.In Merkel’s case at least probably as part of a long standing Stasi plot bearing in mind her Polish Communist and East German Stasi background.In which the links between the East German regime and Arab etc aggression towards the West and Israel were well known.
As for instability in the Middle East they didn’t need our help in turning their own place into a violent backward corrupt zb hole even with an ocean of oil sitting under their feet.On that note I for one actually supported the justified ‘basis’ on which our government took action in Afghan and GW1 and 2.My only issue being the ‘methodology’ in firstly getting involved with the local squabble between Iraq and Kuwait when it was actually in our interests to stay well out of it and viewing Saudi as the solution and an ally not the problem and an enemy.
In all cases there’s no reason for us to get involved in an obvious corrupt EU driven agenda of mass economic migration.Or to give a zb about so called ‘refugees’ from the Arab states when they’ve only got themselves to blame and have all the resources available at home there to fix there own problems.Instead of which as usual they just want to waste their time fighting each other and everyone else and to spread their backward savage culture into Europe. 
Carryfast:
If you agree on ‘all the above’ ( economic migration not refuge ) then why do you still keep on with the same old crap that it’s all our fault and we should let them all in as as recompense.While even if it was ‘refuge’ then there’s no reason why they can’t find a better solution locally within their own culture within the Arab/Asian world.As for the French their government is on the same mission as Merkel of instigating Asian and African mass movement into Europe and the dilution of its indigenous demographic.In Merkel’s case at least probably as part of a long standing Stasi plot bearing in mind her Polish Communist and East German Stasi background.In which the links between the East German regime and Arab etc aggression towards the West and Israel were well known.As for instability in the Middle East they didn’t need our help in turning their own place into a violent backward corrupt zb hole even with an ocean of oil sitting under their feet.On that note I for one actually supported the justified ‘basis’ on which our government took action in Afghan and GW1 and 2.My only issue being the ‘methodology’ in firstly getting involved with the local squabble between Iraq and Kuwait when it was actually in our interests to stay well out of it and viewing Saudi as the solution and an ally not the problem and an enemy.
In all cases there’s no reason for us to get involved in an obvious corrupt EU driven agenda of mass economic migration.Or to give a zb about so called ‘refugees’ from the Arab states when they’ve only got themselves to blame and have all the resources available at home there to fix there own problems.Instead of which as usual they just want to waste their time fighting each other and everyone else and to spread their backward savage culture into Europe.
Could you point to where I have said let them in as recompense ? I have suggested nothing of the sort. I have said financial help and aid is appropriate. As for the rest of the rubbish you have posted about it being a violent backward corrupt zb hole. This is your view of it and you have probably never visited the middle east. I have spent most of my working life there and my first hand knowledge of it is not of your point of view. I would say Lily Allen has about the same level of knowledge as your professing. You were in favour of taking action is of no importance to either the British government or the Afghan state. As for your view on the local squabble between Iraq and Kuwait, well you are obviously trying to wind me up or you are plain stupid and I don’t think you are stupid, so wind me up as much as you like I aint biting.
UKtramp:
Carryfast:
If you agree on ‘all the above’ ( economic migration not refuge ) then why do you still keep on with the same old crap that it’s all our fault and we should let them all in as as recompense.While even if it was ‘refuge’ then there’s no reason why they can’t find a better solution locally within their own culture within the Arab/Asian world.As for the French their government is on the same mission as Merkel of instigating Asian and African mass movement into Europe and the dilution of its indigenous demographic.In Merkel’s case at least probably as part of a long standing Stasi plot bearing in mind her Polish Communist and East German Stasi background.In which the links between the East German regime and Arab etc aggression towards the West and Israel were well known.As for instability in the Middle East they didn’t need our help in turning their own place into a violent backward corrupt zb hole even with an ocean of oil sitting under their feet.On that note I for one actually supported the justified ‘basis’ on which our government took action in Afghan and GW1 and 2.My only issue being the ‘methodology’ in firstly getting involved with the local squabble between Iraq and Kuwait when it was actually in our interests to stay well out of it and viewing Saudi as the solution and an ally not the problem and an enemy.
In all cases there’s no reason for us to get involved in an obvious corrupt EU driven agenda of mass economic migration.Or to give a zb about so called ‘refugees’ from the Arab states when they’ve only got themselves to blame and have all the resources available at home there to fix there own problems.Instead of which as usual they just want to waste their time fighting each other and everyone else and to spread their backward savage culture into Europe.
Could you point to where I have said let them in as recompense ? I have suggested nothing of the sort. I have said financial help and aid is appropriate. As for the rest of the rubbish you have posted about it being a violent backward corrupt zb hole. This is your view of it and you have probably never visited the middle east. I have spent most of my working life there and my first hand knowledge of it is not of your point of view. I would say Lily Allen has about the same level of knowledge as your professing. You were in favour of taking action is of no importance to either the British government or the Afghan state. As for your view on the local squabble between Iraq and Kuwait, well you are obviously trying to wind me up or you are plain stupid and I don’t think you are stupid, so wind me up as much as you like I aint biting.
You said you ‘completely agree with her’.While it’s obvious that she’s just another one of the ‘refugees’ welcome rabble.So the premise that she went to apologise to them for our government not letting them all in,partly based on the lie that we should because ‘it’s all our fault’ and we owe them,stands.
As for the Middle East not being a backward zb hole mostly based on either savage Saudi Wahabbist or Iranian revolutionary Islam exactly where other than a few relatively small more ‘moderate’ moderate parts.Ironically Syria being one which still leaves the question of its links with Iran ?.
Why do we need to give a region awash with its own oil wealth anything ?.
As for the Iraq v Kuwait squabble exactly what was it if it wasn’t a typical local inter Arab dispute ?.Which was in our interests to stay well out of.While if you’re saying that we should have intervened in that case but not others then that seems a bit selective and hypocritical assuming that you’re saying the Taliban and Saddam’s regime weren’t a direct threat to us which we had to ( try to ) take out.Just as the Saudi one is.
My point being that going for Afghan and Iraq rather than Saudi and Iran made as much sense as taking out Italy,while appeasing Germany,in WW2,would have done.Not to mention helping Kuwait when like Saudi the zb’s had all made it clear that they would ally with Iraq against Israel if Israel had defended itself against Iraqi attacks in GW1.At which point we should have said fine you’re on your own we’re out.
Not to mention the pro immigration agenda leaving our own borders wide open for any Arab type hostile to just walk in and attack us at home. 
Oh yeah… the holy grail.
The vagrant and Carryfast are in a ‘debate’…
My work here is done.
the nodding donkey:
Oh yeah… the holy grail.The vagrant and Carryfast are in a ‘debate’…
My work here is done.
I would say Carryfast has more about him than what you have about you if I am been honest. At least he can put an opinion and string a sentence / argument together without running off crying. 
Carryfast:
You said you ‘completely agree with her’.While it’s obvious that she’s just another one of the ‘refugees’ welcome rabble.So the premise that she went to apologise to them for our government not letting them all in,partly based on the lie that we should because ‘it’s all our fault’ and we owe them,stands.As for the Middle East not being a backward zb hole mostly based on either savage Saudi Wahabbist or Iranian revolutionary Islam exactly where other than a few relatively small more ‘moderate’ moderate parts.Ironically Syria being one which still leaves the question of its links with Iran ?.
Why do we need to give a region awash with its own oil wealth anything ?.
As for the Iraq v Kuwait squabble exactly what was it if it wasn’t a typical local inter Arab dispute ?.Which was in our interests to stay well out of.While if you’re saying that we should have intervened in that case but not others then that seems a bit selective and hypocritical assuming that you’re saying the Taliban and Saddam’s regime weren’t a direct threat to us which we had to ( try to ) take out.Just as the Saudi one is.
My point being that going for Afghan and Iraq rather than Saudi and Iran made as much sense as taking out Italy,while appeasing Germany,in WW2,would have done.Not to mention helping Kuwait when like Saudi the zb’s had all made it clear that they would ally with Iraq against Israel if Israel had defended itself against Iraqi attacks in GW1.At which point we should have said fine you’re on your own we’re out.
Not to mention the pro immigration agenda leaving our own borders wide open for any Arab type hostile to just walk in and attack us at home.
The middle East is not as bad as the media makes out, they have a totally different culture to us that is alien in comparison. Saddam Hussein kept stability in Iraq and although his regime was brutal to us, it isn’t to an Arab. The Saudi regime is far more brutal in many respects. Does anyone step in there to help out or liberate them. No they most certainly do not, we turn a blind eye as they deal barrel oil in $. They were never a threat to the west only to themselves, however once Saddam Hussein moved towards taking the oil fields of Kuwait and threatened to deal oil barrels in Euros that sealed his fate, we had to liberate them. That left ISIS to fill the void. Leave them to run their own countries, that will never happen until the last drop of oil has run dry. The middle east is a big turmoil because of western influence. Get involved in their holy wars and they will bring them to our doorstep.
UKtramp:
Carryfast:
You said you ‘completely agree with her’.While it’s obvious that she’s just another one of the ‘refugees’ welcome rabble.So the premise that she went to apologise to them for our government not letting them all in,partly based on the lie that we should because ‘it’s all our fault’ and we owe them,stands.As for the Middle East not being a backward zb hole mostly based on either savage Saudi Wahabbist or Iranian revolutionary Islam exactly where other than a few relatively small more ‘moderate’ moderate parts.Ironically Syria being one which still leaves the question of its links with Iran ?.
Why do we need to give a region awash with its own oil wealth anything ?.
As for the Iraq v Kuwait squabble exactly what was it if it wasn’t a typical local inter Arab dispute ?.Which was in our interests to stay well out of.While if you’re saying that we should have intervened in that case but not others then that seems a bit selective and hypocritical assuming that you’re saying the Taliban and Saddam’s regime weren’t a direct threat to us which we had to ( try to ) take out.Just as the Saudi one is.
My point being that going for Afghan and Iraq rather than Saudi and Iran made as much sense as taking out Italy,while appeasing Germany,in WW2,would have done.Not to mention helping Kuwait when like Saudi the zb’s had all made it clear that they would ally with Iraq against Israel if Israel had defended itself against Iraqi attacks in GW1.At which point we should have said fine you’re on your own we’re out.
Not to mention the pro immigration agenda leaving our own borders wide open for any Arab type hostile to just walk in and attack us at home.
The middle East is not as bad as the media makes out, they have a totally different culture to us that is alien in comparison. Saddam Hussein kept stability in Iraq and although his regime was brutal to us, it isn’t to an Arab. The Saudi regime is far more brutal in many respects. Does anyone step in there to help out or liberate them. No they most certainly do not, we turn a blind eye as they deal barrel oil in $. They were never a threat to the west only to themselves, however once Saddam Hussein moved towards taking the oil fields of Kuwait and threatened to deal oil barrels in Euros that sealed his fate, we had to liberate them. That left ISIS to fill the void. Leave them to run their own countries, that will never happen until the last drop of oil has run dry. The middle east is a big turmoil because of western influence. Get involved in their holy wars and they will bring them to our doorstep.
Absolute correct.
Only the the Kuwait liberation was more about protecting American business interests as trading oil in Euros take out their finger from the pie.
The “liberation” of Libya was all about removing a cruel dictator(another CIA installed puppet), who by strange coinsidence was trying to float an international currency of his own.
How long had Mugabe been a dictator of Zimbabwe without Amercian intervention and their freedom bullets helping the poor downtroden people of this oil less nation?
Jihad has been going on since the crusades and wont change anytime soon as their culture is diametrically opposed to our own, Islam needs a firm hand to keep it in check, just look how respectful it is when unleashed into a tolerent society, like say, Rotherham.
At last, you know the real Middle East problems stem from the West, Who liberates the people of Gaza ? Move away from the yankee dollar and watch rulers get assassinated. I would say we are more corrupt than any middle eastern country.
UKtramp:
I cannot and am not arguing against any of what you have said, the jihadi war did not do the damage to Aleppo as that was down to the Russian and the allied troops. Each took it’s turn in different areas of Aleppo, the jihadi war has been raging for years well before this full on assault. Whilst Russia was destroying that country in the name of eradicating ISIS, the rest of the world stood by and became spectators allowing Putin a free hand and doing the work the CIA had created to begin with. That is all now done and which ever way you want to paint it, it is down to all involved to put that country right again. Regardless of how people are travelling to get to us the fact remains that those people can no longer live in that city and even in that country after our intervention. It should neve have happened same way as Afghanistan and all of the other middle east conflicts that have been interfered in, it is down to oil and that is all, nothing to do with anything else. We should have funded Greece to take care of the situation better and other “safe” countries rather than allowing the Calais camp to exist.
Our views on the Middle East and the West meddling in it are not far apart, but I would think the best thing we can do for Syria and other Middle East Countries is keep well out, the people of Syria have the ability to rebuild for themselves, aid money from the West will come with strings attached and more meddling. We won’t of course because Syria like the Ukraine has become the latest conflict zone between the West and Russia, along with the internet it would seem.
The middle East is not as bad as the media makes out, they have a totally different culture to us that is alien in comparison.
Yes true, during my few trips to the Middle East, although to the Gulf States not Syria, I’ve found the people very welcoming and hospitable, when I get a chance I try and find the local Souq and have great fun haggling, but I’m sure the trader always does better out of the deal than me. 
and I have come back from them with some very random stuff.
However you don’t take advantage of that hospitality, as one of our mechanics found out, they’ll tolerate drinking in certain places, but you don’t go out on the streets when you’ve had a few to many. Personally I think the lad was lucky as he was deported after 3 days.
Also as I keep saying the camp in Calais doesn’t exist because of the problems in Syria or other recent conflicts, there has been a problem and various camps in Calais for years even decades now, remember the camp at Sangette, that was closed in 2002 and the Le Touquet treaty, to move the UK border checks to Calais, was agreed in 2003 so the problem existed before the recent conflicts.
completely right, we should not involve ourselves in Middle East policies, meddling with their affairs and overturning their countries for our own benefit and the media showing all the hatred from them towards us, is there any wonder they hate us. Nice hospitable people in the main, disrespect them and break their laws then a different matter all together. Our politicians care only for the revenue and votes in which our opinions can easily be swayed to whatever they want us to believe. My experience over the years I have worked their is not of a lorry driver like you but it will have been the same experience as guests in their country. The difference to seeing and witnessing it first hand is not the same as the TV and the papers will have you believe.
UKtramp:
completely right, we should not involve ourselves in Middle East policies, meddling with their affairs and overturning their countries for our own benefit and the media showing all the hatred from them towards us, is there any wonder they hate us. Nice hospitable people in the main, disrespect them and break their laws then a different matter all together. Our politicians care only for the revenue and votes in which our opinions can easily be swayed to whatever they want us to believe. My experience over the years I have worked their is not of a lorry driver like you but it will have been the same experience as guests in their country. The difference to seeing and witnessing it first hand is not the same as the TV and the papers will have you believe.
It seems clear that the idea of Arabs and Islamists expecting respect for their culture and national sovereignty and borders is all one sided with them having no intention of reciprocating that with the West.While it’s a bit difficult to turn a blind eye to their obvious intention of massacring the Israeli population,when they aren’t busy murdering each other or threatening the West and anyone viewed as infidels with Jihad.As for Russian involvement in the Middle East the time to sort that for once an for all was in 1973 when the cold war should have been turned hot in support of Israel.Too late by GW 1 at which point containment and staying well out of the place and their silly squabbles was the only realistic option.Instead of which we arm Saudi to the teeth and call them our ‘allies’ while moaning at Israel and smashing South Africa and Rhodesia.You couldn’t make it up.
The point of them not respecting us is totally understandable, they do not abide by our laws and ridiculous human rights issues, they adhere strictly to their own laws and beliefs Sharia for example, also the problem is two fold with different sects of beliefs of different people for example the sunni muslims which make up the majority do not get along with the shia muslims and holy wars break out amongst these groups, each trying to convert the other whilst us infidels, well they just want to either convert us or kill us. Then we have the religious fanatics such as Isis and the Taliban all have a different view point and method of dealing with their issues which to us westerners is barbaric and medieval.When they come over to us their belief and religion does not simply stop. They believe they are going to somewhere better when they die, if they die fighting for the cause then they become a martyr and go to an even better place. We shouldn’t be encouraging them over here at all let alone dabbling in their countries, it is a never ending vicious cycle and waging wars with them is ridiculous and a non starter. Another Vietnam perhaps with much more serious consequences. So when you say you were all for the coalition forces doing something about it, well that is a point of view that the media would want you to take. Every day you will see some terrorist extremist being arrested in the UK alone through this intervention. Leave them too it would be a better solution.
UKtramp:
The point of them not respecting us is totally understandable, they do not abide by our laws and ridiculous human rights issues, they adhere strictly to their own laws and beliefs Sharia for example, also the problem is two fold with different sects of beliefs of different people for example the sunni muslims which make up the majority do not get along with the shia muslims and holy wars break out amongst these groups, each trying to convert the other whilst us infidels, well they just want to either convert us or kill us. Then we have the religious fanatics such as Isis and the Taliban all have a different view point and method of dealing with their issues which to us westerners is barbaric and medieval.When they come over to us their belief and religion does not simply stop. They believe they are going to somewhere better when they die, if they die fighting for the cause then they become a martyr and go to an even better place. We shouldn’t be encouraging them over here at all let alone dabbling in their countries, it is a never ending vicious cycle and waging wars with them is ridiculous and a non starter. Another Vietnam perhaps with much more serious consequences. So when you say you were all for the coalition forces doing something about it, well that is a point of view that the media would want you to take. Every day you will see some terrorist extremist being arrested in the UK alone through this intervention. Leave them too it would be a better solution.
I thought you said you were going?
Harry Monk:
I thought you said you were going?
That’s a bit off topic I am afraid, so cannot answer.
UKtramp:
Harry Monk:
I thought you said you were going?That’s a bit off topic I am afraid, so cannot answer.
Elegantly put old chap!
ItsJoe:
Elegantly put old chap!
Hope your feeling better Joe.
UKtramp:
The point of them not respecting us is totally understandable, they do not abide by our laws and ridiculous human rights issues, they adhere strictly to their own laws and beliefs Sharia for example, also the problem is two fold with different sects of beliefs of different people for example the sunni muslims which make up the majority do not get along with the shia muslims and holy wars break out amongst these groups, each trying to convert the other whilst us infidels, well they just want to either convert us or kill us. Then we have the religious fanatics such as Isis and the Taliban all have a different view point and method of dealing with their issues which to us westerners is barbaric and medieval.When they come over to us their belief and religion does not simply stop. They believe they are going to somewhere better when they die, if they die fighting for the cause then they become a martyr and go to an even better place. We shouldn’t be encouraging them over here at all let alone dabbling in their countries, it is a never ending vicious cycle and waging wars with them is ridiculous and a non starter. Another Vietnam perhaps with much more serious consequences. So when you say you were all for the coalition forces doing something about it, well that is a point of view that the media would want you to take. Every day you will see some terrorist extremist being arrested in the UK alone through this intervention. Leave them too it would be a better solution.
Doesn’t that just confirm everything I’ve said they expect respect from us for their culture and borders but they aren’t prepared to reciprocate that.
As for leave them to it that’s what I’ve said.IE either we should have crushed them in 1973 in an alliance with Israel and as we chose not to just turn our backs in the case of GW 1 let alone us arming the zb’s to the teeth and helping their military to be even more effective.In addition to putting up travel and immigration barriers to stop them infiltrating our own place with their savage backward culture.IE containment of the problem is the solution and we won’t do that by welcoming them into our own country.
UKtramp:
ItsJoe:
Elegantly put old chap!Hope your feeling better Joe.
Yes pal it’s getting there but like you said it’s the emotional damage such events can cause.
I’m going to remember what my nan said, “they’re jealous coz’ they ain’t us” (more you than me I admit)
ItsJoe:
Yes pal it’s getting there but like you said it’s the emotional damage such events can cause.I’m going to remember what my nan said, “they’re jealous coz’ they ain’t us” (more you than me I admit)
Wise words from your nan Joe, You will be ok and the mental scars will heal with time.