OVLOV JAY:
There you go, using our argument to suit your narrative. .
So that was your argument, but now that it goes against you, you want to ignore it?
We had an act to get in, we need an act to get out. Simples.
wheelnutt:
OVLOV JAY:
There you go, using our argument to suit your narrative. .So that was your argument, but now that it goes against you, you want to ignore it?
Not at all. This is wider reaching than parliamentary democracy. If you don’t enact the will of the referendum, it’s just a dictatorship hiding behind a democracy.
OVLOV JAY:
wheelnutt:
OVLOV JAY:
There you go, using our argument to suit your narrative. .So that was your argument, but now that it goes against you, you want to ignore it?
Not at all. This is wider reaching than parliamentary democracy. If you don’t enact the will of the referendum, it’s just a dictatorship hiding behind a democracy.
We have no provision for a referendum in our democracy, everybody agrees on that one at least, both leavers and remainers, there is no ambiguity there.
The point here is that we need an act of Parliament to leave, the PM can’t ignore parliament and do her own thing, that is not how our democracy works.
Only parliament sets our laws, you want to overrule parliament after you voted to give our parliament more control by wanting to leave the EU?
I remember back in the 80’s when there was a “Bring Back Hanging” bill, supported by Thatcher herself.
The MPs blocked it, denied the public a referendum on it, and gave away our right to EVER have another referendum on it - by giving up the right to capital punishment.
This means not only can we not execute our vilest criminals - we also cannot wage war and kill another country’s citizens without the express approval of the the EU and/or NATO.
There was even resistance in 1982 for Britain "NOT to send a task force to re-claim the Falkland Islands back from Argentina, who’d just annexed them!
Theresa May staying put until 2020 also keeps all the OTHER treasonous MPs in place until 2020 as well. No one can be “voted out” by the public before then.
They, then - flex their muscles and kick sand in the face of the very public that elected them.
There behaviour might be a lot different - if there was a snap general election called for this month of November!
Theresa May, ironically enough - cannot even call a snap election - without Parliamentary Approval to turn over the “Fixed Term Parliament Act” which otherwise forces her to stay in place until 2020.
Are the MPs bold enough to allow her to call such a snap election then? - I don’t think they are. I reckon they just want to make as much fuss and bother in the next three years as possible, and hope the fuss all dies down by the time the next election happens. The UK Public have a notoriously short memory though. Good, Good, Good, Good, Good, followed by “tiny bad” but RECENTLY - will make TOAST of ANY politician ANY celebrity but NOT “Any Business”.
A Trump presidency is about to be a game changer for Brexit - and I do believe that the Courts are starting to twitch, in case that event happens.
I can imagine Farage coming back to take charge of UKIP again - which he hinted upon doing “should Brexit be blocked” as it seems to have been today.
Trump would probably support Farage’s UKIP party - to return the favour of Farage supporting his own campaign.
Interesting times ahead… Let’s just hope it’s not all a “Curse” as the Chinese would have it in their axiom. 
If this goes the way I think it may well do with parliament now deciding to ignore and then overule the result of the Referendum then MPs will not just be losing their seats, they will be losing their heads. They would be well advised to take note.
wheelnutt:
OVLOV JAY:
wheelnutt:
OVLOV JAY:
There you go, using our argument to suit your narrative. .So that was your argument, but now that it goes against you, you want to ignore it?
Not at all. This is wider reaching than parliamentary democracy. If you don’t enact the will of the referendum, it’s just a dictatorship hiding behind a democracy.
We have no provision for a referendum in our democracy, everybody agrees on that one at least, both leavers and remainers, there is no ambiguity there.
The point here is that we need an act of Parliament to leave, the PM can’t ignore parliament and do her own thing, that is not how our democracy works.
Only parliament sets our laws, you want to overrule parliament after you voted to give our parliament more control by wanting to leave the EU?
I’m not disagreeing about having a vote. However, on anything else, we leave the vote up to the MPs to do what they believe to be in the interest of their constituents. That’s because we haven’t had a referendum on that particular issue up for the vote. But seeing as we have had a referendum on this issue, it’s only right and proper that the MPs vote in the same manner as their constituents. We aren’t talking about a run of the mill issue, we are talking about a life changing act that has been given a clear mandate. And it’s wrong to let possibly scores of people overturn the majority that had a difference of well over a million
OVLOV JAY:
I’m not disagreeing about having a vote. However, on anything else, we leave the vote up to the MPs to do what they believe to be in the interest of their constituents. That’s because we haven’t had a referendum on that particular issue up for the vote. But seeing as we have had a referendum on this issue, it’s only right and proper that the MPs vote in the same manner as their constituents. We aren’t talking about a run of the mill issue, we are talking about a life changing act that has been given a clear mandate. And it’s wrong to let possibly scores of people overturn the majority that had a difference of well over a million
We agree.
How the MP’s vote is up to them. Some will listen to their constituents, some won’t that is how our democracy works.
We just can’t have the PM ignore parliament, I think 99% of us agree on that.
Totally agree. But like I say, the mp’s should be transparent in the vote. This is going to be decided by mp’s like my local one, Robert Halfon. A remain campaigner representing a Brexit seat. This could well be the end of the Labour Party too
cav551:
If this goes the way I think it may well do with parliament now deciding to ignore and then overule the result of the Referendum then MPs will not just be losing their seats, they will be losing their heads. They would be well advised to take note.
Parliament only abolished capital punishment - so such a fate could not befall them!
Let’s face it - their interest in “not bring back hanging” wasn’t because they disapproved of the VERY popular notion for executing Child Killers, Terrorists, and Pirates - which were the top three candidates to “receive” capital punishment!
We didn’t even get the option “only with checks and balances in place”. We never got a referendum - because despite the public being around 80% in favour of it at the time (low 60’s today) - the MPs and Millionaires themselves just did not like the idea that for all their money and power - they could still be “got rid of” in the ultimate sense of the word…
The rise and fall of Tudor Courtiers of course, is legendary… I don’t think there are any MP grandees out there that do not look back upon this period of history 500 years ago - without a gulp or two!
There’s the cynical part of me that says that Theresa May knew what was going to happen and, as is her want, delayed A50 until a court action prevailed. The appeal process will push it back and delay it further, emboldening the Remainers even more.
There is a very strong argument for Parliament to support the result of the referendum as they passed the referendum act and the information said that the Government will implement the decision. I would expect that there is a strong argument that says Parliament has already ‘delegated’ that decision to the people and they voted leave. We are in uncharted territory here but if Parliament passes an act for a referendum then chooses to ignore the result that is not a good situation for the UK parliament.
I still believe that this judgment doesn’t have the impact some people on each side seem to believe. A50 will still go ahead, and we will still leave the EU but the road is going to be a ■■■■ sight bumpier from now on. Where Remain MP’s will struggle, and especially Labour MP’s in the Labour heartlands, is if they choose to promote their own beliefs against the will of their constituents who voted to leave. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that quite a few could lose their seats.
My own distaste for this judgement is that the same people now shouting from the rooftops that the UK parliament must be allowed to voice its ‘parliamentary sovereignty’ are the very same people who were happy to give it away for last 40 years.
I think the remainers have caused more problems than they realise. I think leave or remain, we’ve given the eu a mandate to treat us like crap now. I see the fact we voted to leave in June pretty much made our membership untenable. Ultimately I think today’s judgment will just cause further uncertainty and problems.
Stanley Knife:
There’s the cynical part of me that says that Theresa May knew what was going to happen and, as is her want, delayed A50 until a court action prevailed. The appeal process will push it back and delay it further, emboldening the Remainers even more.There is a very strong argument for Parliament to support the result of the referendum as they passed the referendum act and the information said that the Government will implement the decision. I would expect that there is a strong argument that says Parliament has already ‘delegated’ that decision to the people and they voted leave. We are in uncharted territory here but if Parliament passes an act for a referendum then chooses to ignore the result that is not a good situation for the UK parliament.
I still believe that this judgment doesn’t have the impact some people on each side seem to believe. A50 will still go ahead, and we will still leave the EU but the road is going to be a ■■■■ sight bumpier from now on. Where Remain MP’s will struggle, and especially Labour MP’s in the Labour heartlands, is if they choose to promote their own beliefs against the will of their constituents who voted to leave. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that quite a few could lose their seats.
My own distaste for this judgement is that the same people now shouting from the rooftops that the UK parliament must be allowed to voice its ‘parliamentary sovereignty’ are the very same people who were happy to give it away for last 40 years.
The referendum act of 2015 was VERY clear, it does NOT state that the result is binding, it doesn’t state either the timeline for leaving the EU.
The referendum act of 2015 was purely consultative. Go have a read of it, maybe you should have done so before the vote but never mind.
From House of Commons Library BRIEFING PAPER Number 07212, 3 June 2015:
This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution.
None of that is however the issue at hand, the issue today is that the PM is not a dictator and cannot use royal prerogative to ignore Parliament.
wheelnutt:
te]The referendum act of 2015 was VERY clear, it does NOT state that the result is binding, it doesn’t state either the timeline for leaving the EU.
The referendum act of 2015 was purely consultative. Go have a read of it, maybe you should have done so before the vote but never mind.
From House of Commons Library BRIEFING PAPER Number 07212, 3 June 2015:
None of that is however the issue at hand, the issue today is that the PM is not a dictator and cannot use royal prerogative to ignore Parliament.
The government back in June should have made that clear. It may be there for people to read, but when they say
" This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"
in a leaflet they send to everyone, then it’s pretty clear. If they wanted it to be we’ll implement what you decide provided Parliament agrees on x and x, then fair enough they should have made it clear.
As I understand it, from the BBC news, 'Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the EU, the High Court has ruled. ', and if Parliament votes against starting the process of leaving the EU, then the government is not implementing what the people have decided.
It seems that the government is caught between two contradictory statements.
" This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"
BBC anti brexit biased left turds propaganda , You still believe anything they say?
albion:
" This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"
Correct and the procedure for the last 1000 years is for parliament to vote on it and decide how and when that referendum recommendation is going to be passed into law once the government has put it into a bill. Then it goes to the House of Lords, any amendments are then discussed and voted on again in the House of Commons it will have 3 debate stages, 2 or 3 report stages, a probable committee stage as we have a Brexit committee now and once all agreed it gets signed by the Queen and put on the register.
That is the implementation procedure for anything the government does that affects us directly.
That is how we operate. We don’t just take a referendum and get the Queen to sign it, this act will be hundreds, if not thousands of pages long, we couldn’t include all of that in the referendum, that is what Parliament is for.
Today’s decision is far from final, It is going to the supreme court next and then, surely to god not, could it potentially go the the European Court of Justice for a final ruling - how galling would that be, the EU deciding if the british public have any say in their own country, the EU may decide it is our own best interests to stay.
Bluey Circles:
Today’s decision is far from final, It is going to the supreme court next and then, surely to god not, could it potentially go the the European Court of Justice for a final ruling - how galling would that be, the EU deciding if the british public have any say in their own country, the EU may decide it is our own best interests to stay.
I really think that the government will take it to the supreme court and see if they agree to halt democracy and abolish parliament for this one item, very unlikely.
I don’t see the government taking this to the ECJ.
The supreme court is scheduled for December 7th, no appeal has been filed yet. I can’t see them agreeing to abolish parliament and put the Queen back in power of our laws in our country so the government can ignore parliament.
OVLOV JAY:
There you go, using our argument to suit your narrative. The will of the people is to get out, so the mp’s should all vote the way of their constituency. That’s the voters they are supposed to represent. It’s like kicking the ball back after a drop ball. Just a formal process to get on with the game.
+1
The people voted to leave and the government should act on that vote
Sod the courts and the nimby remainers who what Merkell
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
blue estate:
OVLOV JAY:
There you go, using our argument to suit your narrative. The will of the people is to get out, so the mp’s should all vote the way of their constituency. That’s the voters they are supposed to represent. It’s like kicking the ball back after a drop ball. Just a formal process to get on with the game.+1
The people voted to leave and the government should act on that vote
Sod the courts and the nimby remainers who what MerkellSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So you want to abolish parliament and put the Queen back in power? You want to end our democracy?
wheelnutt:
Bluey Circles:
Today’s decision is far from final, It is going to the supreme court next and then, surely to god not, could it potentially go the the European Court of Justice for a final ruling - how galling would that be, the EU deciding if the british public have any say in their own country, the EU may decide it is our own best interests to stay.I really think that the government will take it to the supreme court and see if they agree to halt democracy and abolish parliament for this one item, very unlikely.
I don’t see the government taking this to the ECJ.
The supreme court is scheduled for December 7th, no appeal has been filed yet. I can’t see them agreeing to abolish parliament and put the Queen back in power of our laws in our country so the government can ignore parliament.
Events are moving quickly, Government will go to the Supreme Court but not to the ECJ. They will have parliament vote on an act if (more likely when) they lose the Supreme courts’ case.
All this according to David Davis speaking just now.
There is nothing the PM can do now, everything she does would be illegal. Parliament is back in charge until the Supreme Court says differently.
So I guess we can put this thread on hold until December 7th.
Everything after this post is conjecture…