BREXIT.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Smooth Brexit/Natoexit which we’re struggling enough on square one with.
The left think that it’s old ■■■■■ that voted for Brexit and there’s no such thing as a “Young Conservative”.
The right think that it’s champagne socialists that voted for Remain - and there’s no such thing as a “Liberal”.

We’re on an island - a very strategic island - in the middle. But it’s sinking under it’s own weight. We can add ballast or ditch flotsam. Choose your side: Left or Right.

The issue of Federalist v anti Federalist has nothing to do with left or right.There’s anti Federalist Labour ( Benn,Shore,Hoey ) or Federalist Conservative ( Heath,Clarke,Cameron or even Thatcher ).

As for Brexit there is only hard Brexit ( non EEA ) or no Brexit remain or EEA.

[dolph]

Who knows how many other stuff are behind closed doors.

“One scenario might be that the EU argues that Britain keeps its stake in the EIB as selling it would certainly weaken the euro and shake the fragile project even more - a scenario that EU leaders are doing everything they can to avoid. Perhaps an unwritten deal has been struck already between London and Brussels for Britain to not sell its stake, which would explain the British press treating it as off limits to write about. In which case, there could be new assurances by Theresa May’s Brexit minister that U.K. jobs would no longer be lost due to EIB loans to non EU firms”.

dailysabah.com/money/2016/10 … s-own-bank

[anon84679660]

RACHEL JOHNSON: You can’t have your cake and eat it, Boris - just ask Ekaterina

The curious case of the fifth Mrs Richard Fields – the glam blonde Ekaterina, who is pursuing her ex-husband through the courts for cash while wearing an assortment of abbreviated cream Chanel suits – has been bugging me all week. It brought to mind something else, but I couldn’t quite work out what.
On the surface, it was just the sorry tale of a spoilt, lazy, rich woman who couldn’t be bothered to earn a crust herself. A divorcee determined to take her wealthy ex to the cleaners, even though he’d already given her £3.3 million in assets, plus £370,000 a year in maintenance and rainy-day money.
If you drilled down a bit, you could also see the sadder story of a 43-year-old mother-of-two who thought she no longer had any skills or value in the marketplace (she was a child actress, model and beauty queen – all careers with a shelf life shorter than her skirts).

Instead, Ekaterina thought that a man was a plan, and she still does – she has said she doesn’t want to get a job as she is ‘a very good wife’, and her current life goal is to ‘find a husband’.
Then I got it. Fields v Fields, the tabloid tale of a gold-digging trophy wife is, actually, a chronicle of our divorce from Europe foretold. Bear with me here.

Like Ekaterina, you see, who voted to leave her husband but still wanted to have full access to his money, there are Cornish fishermen, Welsh farmers and so on who wanted out of the EU but also to keep their fat, juicy subsidies and payments, please.
Like Ekaterina, who wanted her independence but also the glitzy, international jet-set lifestyle to which she had become accustomed, there are the 17 million Brits who voted for Brexit, who want to take back control of our laws and borders, but also want access as usual to the single market – in an ideal world anyway.

Last week it became grimly clear – to me at least – that Project Fear was not, when push comes to shove, nearly scary enough.
Marmite disappeared – albeit briefly – from supermarkets. The pound is at a 31-year low against the dollar. We have one of the biggest balance of trade deficits in the developed world, and national debt stands at £1.7 trillion, so sterling’s not going to soar any time soon.

To my mind (I’m no economist, but a green side-salad in a beach self-service shack in Sardinia cost me the equivalent of six quid last week, thanks to sterling’s slide) this is a far cry from the claims that, by leaving Europe, the UK could save £350 million a week. In fact, as one former UK Minister told the FT, ‘we could actually end up paying more into the EU budget’ after we leave than we do now.
According to a Treasury report leaked last week, Brexit is going to cost the UK £66 billion a year. The FT (my old paper) reported that the immediate cost of the UK’s split from its 27 EU partners would be up to £20 billion.

On that sobering note, back to Ekaterina, the lady who hoped to leave her rich husband and still live high on the hog on his money.
Fields v Fields (the lawyers’ fees are currently at £1 million and rising) is a cautionary tale not just of super-rich divorce but also of Brexit, and the takeaway is this.
My brother Boris, the Foreign Secretary, who first spake so optimistically of the joys of having cake and eating it too, is wrong. Donald Tusk, the European Council chief, is right when he says: ‘There will be no cakes on the table for anyone. Only salt and vinegar.’
Ekaterina can’t have her cake and eat it too (and, by the by, this single phrase has done more to inflame our soon-to-be-ex-European partners than anything else since the referendum) and nor can we.
Yet this country is about to crack on with the most expensive divorce in history. So cheers, everyone. We’re all being taken to the cleaners now.

dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic … erina.html

[ovlov_jay]

Anyone reading this thread would be forgiven for thinking this country just randomly appeared on a map in 1974

[franglais]

OVLOV JAY:
Anyone reading this thread would be forgiven for thinking this country just randomly appeared on a map in 1974

Some Brexiteers seem to think the out vote will turn the clock back to 74. It wont. The pits wont be pumped dry and re-opened the day after we leave the Eu. Teesside wont be expanding steel production anytime soon. British Leyland wont be exporting to the Commonwealth countries. British Aerospace wont be opening new factories. The world has moved on. Im an old ■■■■ and am none too pleased with some aspects of this Brave New World, but it is the only one weve got. We are where we are.
The story of the Pheonix is only a legend, setting fire to what remains of our old industries crippled by years of underinvestment, won`t result in a shiny new economy.

[carryfast]

Franglais:

OVLOV JAY:
Anyone reading this thread would be forgiven for thinking this country just randomly appeared on a map in 1974

Some Brexiteers seem to think the out vote will turn the clock back to 74. It wont. The pits wont be pumped dry and re-opened the day after we leave the Eu. Teesside wont be expanding steel production anytime soon. British Leyland wont be exporting to the Commonwealth countries. British Aerospace wont be opening new factories. The world has moved on. Im an old ■■■■ and am none too pleased with some aspects of this Brave New World, but it is the only one weve got. We are where we are.
The story of the Pheonix is only a legend, setting fire to what remains of our old industries crippled by years of underinvestment, won`t result in a shiny new economy.

Borrowing and printing money to pay net contributions and to be a net importer of stuff we can make for ourselves and letting foreign powers rule us in their own interests isn’t exactly an option.

Remind us how EU membership is working for Greece in that regard.IE debt used to buy German imports.That ended well.

[daftvader]

Will we see all the remoaners leaving the country for Eutopia?..Of course not…They know whatever happens to this country after Brexit…We will still be better of than most if the other 27 countries…

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[anon84679660]

@Caryfast

You are clearly confusing everything mate, Greece is part of Euro currency block, they have no means of adjusting exchange rates of their own currency because they don’t have own currency, ECB does for the whole Euro block, whether it suits Greece or not.
For Greece the only way out of their problems is to exit Euro, adopt their own currency, devalue it and start from scratch, which will take dozens of years.
Greece would still be part of EU and have access to the single market which counts the most.
It is madness to be exiting 500 million common market on our doorstep, with established customers and relationships, and look for new customers somewhere else.
The reason EU is not signing many new trade deals with other countries, because EU is the most valuable single market in the world, every other country would want to sign trade deal with us (EU), but EU dictates terms and conditions favourable to us and new partners either need to take them or leave them, and most leave them, because they heavily favour EU companies.
Now we (UK, the shareholders of the most valuable single market in the world) are about to leave that and look for new partners somewhere else.
Madness.
But that’s what happens when you let people who have no clue what they are doing decide future of the country.

[carryfast]

anon84679660:
@Caryfast

You are clearly confusing everything mate, Greece is part of Euro currency block, they have no means of adjusting exchange rates of their own currency because they don’t have own currency, ECB does for the whole Euro block, whether it suits Greece or not.
For Greece the only way out of their problems is to exit Euro, adopt their own currency, devalue it and start from scratch, which will take dozens of years.
Greece would still be part of EU and have access to the single market which counts the most.
It is madness to be exiting 500 million common market on our doorstep, with established customers and relationships, and look for new customers somewhere else.
The reason EU is not signing many new trade deals with other countries, because EU is the most valuable single market in the world, every other country would want to sign trade deal with us (EU), but EU dictates terms and conditions favourable to us and new partners either need to take them or leave them, and most leave them, because they heavily favour EU companies.
Now we (UK, the shareholders of the most valuable single market in the world) are about to leave that and look for new partners somewhere else.
Madness.
But that’s what happens when you let people who have no clue what they are doing decide future of the country.

Firstly you seem to be confusing ‘access’ to EU markets with tariff levels.The former having nothing to do with the latter and EU membership only affecting the latter not the former.IE leaving the EU does not mean we lose our EU customers it just means a question mark over the tariff levels.In which case it’s a good idea not to get into a trade war with a net importer of your products or hopefully after Brexit even a good trading partner.

As it stands the EU just means giving up democratic control/sovereignty of our own country and being a net importer of EU products and being a net contributor to the EU budget which in large part means giving money to poorer areas of Europe to buy German products.That’s all good for us how.

Meanwhile if you’re saying that the EU would punish any member state in whatever way for the crime of secession from it.That’s even more reason why we need to get out of this vindictive Federalist Mafia type zb pile hopefully smashing it in the process.

As for your references to Greece that makes the case for Greek EU membership how.Bearing in mind that it was its trade deficit within the ‘single market’ ( German imports ) which created its debts.

[simon1958]

daftvader:
Will we see all the remoaners leaving the country for Eutopia?..Of course not…They know whatever happens to this country after Brexit…We will still be better of than most if the other 27 countries…

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

MEGGA + 1

[winseer]

Remoaners need to wake up to the fact that they lost the referendum - because those people who could have tipped it over the edge for Remain - could NOT be bothered to get out and vote on “their” own futures.

Older folk are considered “Selfish” for getting out and voting - to stop our somewhat “shorter” futures being thrown into the trashcan of history by younger people who actually don’t understand the issues at stake on the home front.

Young people cannot get on the housing ladder these days. We’re told that’s because of BTL landlords “keeping up the housing market”.
No it isn’t. It’s because post-credit crunch banks were not forced to lend to ordinary people to buy houses with, but were allowed carte blanche to lend willy nilly to the very sub prime borrowers who brought the banks down in the first place!

NOT the fault of “Brexit” causing too high property prices or too low interest rates then. Nope. It’s all down to mis-management.

On that subject of mis-management - Cameron could have said that “We need a clear 2:1 majority to turn over the massive status quo here.” - But he didn’t.
He could have made it a compulsory vote, with anyone submitting no vote or a spoilt ballot paper - counting as a vote for Remain by default. - But he didn’t.
Our replacement PM could have ordered that we default immediately upon all financial obligations to the EU the moment they took office - but they didn’t, and actually for better reasons this time.
The Conservatives could have called an election and stated “Vote Tory if you want OUT and Labour if you want back IN again”.
We all know that the Tories would ■■■■ all over Labour in a snap election any time soon - but that obvious move was still neglected.

So… All we have in terms of “Continuity” is looking forward to “more mis-management” in this country then.
THIS is the real reason the financial markets are going to long-term dump the pound as it stands. When and 'if" the mis-management STOPS - So will that slide in the pound.
The EU are determined that “Brexit” should take as long as possible, should hurt every day, and not ONCE have they attempted to “Bribe” us to stay in, “Bribe” us to “return”, or “Bribe” the Opposition enough so that they can win office…

The next big move in the saga of Brexit now - will be the result of the American Election next month.
Like the run-up to our referendum - the price on Trump winning is lengthening all the time…
Hilary is expected to romp it - and there would be a great upset indeed if she managed to blow it at this late stage.
Trump cannot win on his own - Hilary has got to find a way of “losing it” by the limbo of Trump’s unpopularity.
Likewise, there is a precedent with what happened with our referendum:
Only 37% voted for Brexit. It should have been easy to motivate the 4% extra poll that Remain needed to win - but they couldn’t be bothered.
All we got were reasons to NOT vote for Brexit - rather than reasons TO vote for Remain.

Don’t blame the Brexiteers for getting us where we are - Blame the management for putting us, and then LEAVING us where we are.
Those of us who voted Brexit expected at least a snap general election should Cameron be forced to resign (which happened) take Osbourne with him (which happened) and got succeeded by an unelected Remainer (which also happened).

We don’t want to wait until 2020 for either the next election OR Brexit. We’re paying the price now - so let’s be having satisfaction as close to “now” as possible then!

The public - regardless of which way they voted - should consider voting for those candidates who are in favour of “getting on with it” - rather than the surrender monkeys of ALL parties who think “It’s not too late to go back!”

That would be the same as Neville Chamberlain saying “I’ve made a non-aggression pact with Hitler” as Stalin did (to his folly).
History doesn’t remember Chamberlain very kindly though - even though he did the right thing by “Declaring War upon Germany” rather than buckling under with more “appeasement” which was his original policy.
Perhaps Cameron will be remembered in history “just as unkindly”. He, after all - could always have stayed as PM but taken the same "It wasn’t what I wanted - but this is my mess, and now I’ll clean it up" approach that Theresa May is apparently taking at this time.

It was for Cameron to “rely on the Fixed Term Parliament Act” to stick around until 2020 - not a PM who wasn’t elected in the first place!

I suggest the public patience with any further dithering is now at the end of it’s tether. It won’t be hard for the EU banks to continue applying selling pressure to the pound - at least in the short term.
Each and every day wasted with “No Progress” then - is going to hurt us, but also hurt the EU in the longer run, since there’s no rule that says “Peace in our time” is going to work THIS time around any more than it did in 1938.

As there is no “Soft Brexit” - because the EU will simply not allow it, there can only be Hard Brexit. There are actually TWO versions of this though: One where we pull away from the EU by defaulting various contracts we need to do because that’s the only way out - OR - we end up having to fight the EU in a war to get out as the Americans did against us in 1776. The argument there being that “The EU says leaving is illegal, and you have to pay a penalty to do an illegal thing”.

No thanks. Either we’re a sovereign nation or we’re not. America pulled it off when they were NOT a recognized sovereign state to start with. So why can’t we go through the upheaval of merely “regaining” that sovereign status we were not supposed to have lost in 1974 in the first place?

If Britain ends up being broken by the EU - There WILL be war between us - make no mistake.
George III realized in time that “If he didn’t let America go” in 1783 - There would be serious repercussions upon the British Monarchy. France, meanwhile - backed America vs their old enemy Britain - and within a decade - his head was falling into a basket…

It took 7 years from America declaring independence to America actually being recognized as a sovereign state in it’s own right.
Let’s see if we can do that with a lot less wasted time, and certainly a lot less wasted lives over the issue which has divided our nation.

[franglais]

Carryfast:

Franglais:

OVLOV JAY:
Anyone reading this thread would be forgiven for thinking this country just randomly appeared on a map in 1974

Some Brexiteers seem to think the out vote will turn the clock back to 74. It wont. The pits wont be pumped dry and re-opened the day after we leave the Eu. Teesside wont be expanding steel production anytime soon. British Leyland wont be exporting to the Commonwealth countries. British Aerospace wont be opening new factories. The world has moved on. Im an old ■■■■ and am none too pleased with some aspects of this Brave New World, but it is the only one weve got. We are where we are.
The story of the Pheonix is only a legend, setting fire to what remains of our old industries crippled by years of underinvestment, won`t result in a shiny new economy.

Borrowing and printing money to pay net contributions and to be a net importer of stuff we can make for ourselves and letting foreign powers rule us in their own interests isn’t exactly an option.

Remind us how EU membership is working for Greece in that regard.IE debt used to buy German imports.That ended well.

Can`t see how the Eu can be blamed for the failure of the National Greek government? And how much worse off would Greece be now without Eu support?

EDIT. I would attribute the Greek failure more to having a working life of a few years, backed with a long well paid retirement for civil servants, financed by borrowing against the future, not by borrowing to buy BMWs.
Due to years of underinvestment we can no longer feed ourselves as we expect to be fed. We can no longer produce goods as we once did. This is not the fault of the Eu. It is due to bad government by our own home grown politicians, and years of gov ineptitude and private profiteering. The likes of Phillip Green selling off the assets of BHS is the same as Thatcher selling off what MacMillan described as the “family silver”. That some of it happened at the same time as our Eu membership is not evidence of causality. The UKs economy isnt shot Because of the EU, it`s shot In Spite of being in the EU!
Many of our politicos have used the EU as an excuse for their own failings.

[winseer]

Tsipras is another classic example of “Mis-management”.

He could have turned on the printing presses, which is what I reckon Varoufakis wanted to do - but wasn’t allowed to by Tsipras.
Incapable of thinking outside the box, or deferring more power to Varoufakis - Tsipras thought the only source of future cash in the world - was the ECB which required him to sell his soul to keep being able to borrow from them. - And so that’s exactly what he ended up doing.

Varoufakis resigned, and now Greece is well and truly broken.
Unlike the UK - Greece doesn’t have to ability to wage war to dig itself out of this bottomless pit of despair of Tsipras’ own making.

The best leader a struggling EU member country can have right now - is an Economist. The best leader needed in the years to come - will be a General.

[anon84679660]

Some revelations from Brexiter’s favourite paper

Revealed: Boris Johnson ‘wrote unpublished newspaper column urging Britain to stay in the EU just TWO DAYS before announcing he was pro-Brexit’
Boris Johnson wrote a piece extolling the good value of EU membership
It was written two days before he announced he would campaign to leave
Former Mayor of London had also written a Brexit article at this point
Unpublished piece said it was a ‘boon for the world and for Europe’ for Britain to be involved in the EU

Boris Johnson was set to declare Britain was better off in the European Union, just two days before he announced he would be campaigning for Brexit.
Details of an unpublished Daily Telegraph article written by the former Mayor of London, have been revealed in a new book on the EU referendum campaign.
It said: ‘Britain is a great nation, a global force for good. It is surely a boon for the world and for Europe that she should be ­intimately engaged in the EU.’
He warned that Brexit could lead to economic shock, Russian aggression and Scottish independence.
The details of the article have been revealed in All Out War, by Sunday Times’ Political Editor Tim Shipman.
The remain column was written on February 19 and Mr Johnson, now MP for Uxbridge, became an Out campaigner by February 21.

According to the Times, Mr Johnson also wrote: 'This is a market on our doorstep, ready for further exploitation by British firms.
‘The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?’
In comments that seem to anticipate the fall in the value of the pound, Mr Johnson write: ‘Almost everyone expects there to be some sort of economic shock as a result of Brexit. How big would it be? I am sure the doomsters are exaggerating the fall-out but are they completely wrong?’
It also predicted last week’s renewed threats of a post-Brexit second independence vote in Scotland with Mr Johnson writing: ‘Then there is a worry about Scotland, and the possibility that an English-only ‘leave’ vote could lead to the break-up of the union.’
He raised the prospect that Brexit would strengthen Russian President Vladimir Putin saying: ‘We don’t want to do anything to encourage more shirtless swaggering from the Russian leader, not in the Middle East, not anywhere.’
It was written after he had written his Leave article, and said to have been penned to help him clarify his thoughts.
Instead of this pro-EU message, Mr Johnson joined forces with Michael Gove in the campaign to leave the European Union.
After the vote in June, he wrote: 'I believe that millions of people who voted Leave were also inspired by the belief that Britain is a great country, and that outside the job-destroying coils of EU bureaucracy we can survive and thrive as never before.

'I think that they are right in their analysis, and right in their choice.
‘And yet we who agreed with this majority verdict must accept that it was not entirely overwhelming.’
The Mail on Sunday revealed last month how much Mr Johnson has wobbled over backing Brexit, privately telling David Cameron how the Leave campaign would be crushed only nine minutes before he put himself at the head of it.
Mr Johnson earned £275,000 a year writing his weekly Telegraph column but gave it up in July as he took up his cabinet role.
Sources close to Mr Johnson said the article was never intended for publication and was written to ‘validate’ his arguments for leave.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article … rexit.html

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Remoaners need to wake up to the fact that they lost the referendum - because those people who could have tipped it over the edge for Remain - could NOT be bothered to get out and vote on “their” own futures.

Older folk are considered “Selfish” for getting out and voting - to stop our somewhat “shorter” futures being thrown into the trashcan of history by younger people who actually don’t understand the issues at stake on the home front.

Young people cannot get on the housing ladder these days. We’re told that’s because of BTL landlords “keeping up the housing market”.
No it isn’t. It’s because post-credit crunch banks were not forced to lend to ordinary people to buy houses with, but were allowed carte blanche to lend willy nilly to the very sub prime borrowers who brought the banks down in the first place!

NOT the fault of “Brexit” causing too high property prices or too low interest rates then. Nope. It’s all down to mis-management.

On that subject of mis-management - Cameron could have said that “We need a clear 2:1 majority to turn over the massive status quo here.” - But he didn’t.
He could have made it a compulsory vote, with anyone submitting no vote or a spoilt ballot paper - counting as a vote for Remain by default. - But he didn’t.
Our replacement PM could have ordered that we default immediately upon all financial obligations to the EU the moment they took office - but they didn’t, and actually for better reasons this time.
The Conservatives could have called an election and stated “Vote Tory if you want OUT and Labour if you want back IN again”.
We all know that the Tories would ■■■■ all over Labour in a snap election any time soon - but that obvious move was still neglected.

So… All we have in terms of “Continuity” is looking forward to “more mis-management” in this country then.
THIS is the real reason the financial markets are going to long-term dump the pound as it stands. When and 'if" the mis-management STOPS - So will that slide in the pound.
The EU are determined that “Brexit” should take as long as possible, should hurt every day, and not ONCE have they attempted to “Bribe” us to stay in, “Bribe” us to “return”, or “Bribe” the Opposition enough so that they can win office…

The next big move in the saga of Brexit now - will be the result of the American Election next month.
Like the run-up to our referendum - the price on Trump winning is lengthening all the time…
Hilary is expected to romp it - and there would be a great upset indeed if she managed to blow it at this late stage.
Trump cannot win on his own - Hilary has got to find a way of “losing it” by the limbo of Trump’s unpopularity.
Likewise, there is a precedent with what happened with our referendum:
Only 37% voted for Brexit. It should have been easy to motivate the 4% extra poll that Remain needed to win - but they couldn’t be bothered.
All we got were reasons to NOT vote for Brexit - rather than reasons TO vote for Remain.

Don’t blame the Brexiteers for getting us where we are - Blame the management for putting us, and then LEAVING us where we are.
Those of us who voted Brexit expected at least a snap general election should Cameron be forced to resign (which happened) take Osbourne with him (which happened) and got succeeded by an unelected Remainer (which also happened).

We don’t want to wait until 2020 for either the next election OR Brexit. We’re paying the price now - so let’s be having satisfaction as close to “now” as possible then!

The public - regardless of which way they voted - should consider voting for those candidates who are in favour of “getting on with it” - rather than the surrender monkeys of ALL parties who think “It’s not too late to go back!”

That would be the same as Neville Chamberlain saying “I’ve made a non-aggression pact with Hitler” as Stalin did (to his folly).
History doesn’t remember Chamberlain very kindly though - even though he did the right thing by “Declaring War upon Germany” rather than buckling under with more “appeasement” which was his original policy.
Perhaps Cameron will be remembered in history “just as unkindly”. He, after all - could always have stayed as PM but taken the same "It wasn’t what I wanted - but this is my mess, and now I’ll clean it up" approach that Theresa May is apparently taking at this time.

It was for Cameron to “rely on the Fixed Term Parliament Act” to stick around until 2020 - not a PM who wasn’t elected in the first place!

I suggest the public patience with any further dithering is now at the end of it’s tether. It won’t be hard for the EU banks to continue applying selling pressure to the pound - at least in the short term.
Each and every day wasted with “No Progress” then - is going to hurt us, but also hurt the EU in the longer run, since there’s no rule that says “Peace in our time” is going to work THIS time around any more than it did in 1938.

As there is no “Soft Brexit” - because the EU will simply not allow it, there can only be Hard Brexit. There are actually TWO versions of this though: One where we pull away from the EU by defaulting various contracts we need to do because that’s the only way out - OR - we end up having to fight the EU in a war to get out as the Americans did against us in 1776. The argument there being that “The EU says leaving is illegal, and you have to pay a penalty to do an illegal thing”.

No thanks. Either we’re a sovereign nation or we’re not. America pulled it off when they were NOT a recognized sovereign state to start with. So why can’t we go through the upheaval of merely “regaining” that sovereign status we were not supposed to have lost in 1974 in the first place?

If Britain ends up being broken by the EU - There WILL be war between us - make no mistake.
George III realized in time that “If he didn’t let America go” in 1783 - There would be serious repercussions upon the British Monarchy. France, meanwhile - backed America vs their old enemy Britain - and within a decade - his head was falling into a basket…

It took 7 years from America declaring independence to America actually being recognized as a sovereign state in it’s own right.
Let’s see if we can do that with a lot less wasted time, and certainly a lot less wasted lives over the issue which has divided our nation.

Ironically that seems to set the bar for giving away the sovereignty of the nation to the EU Federation lower than maintaining it.Which,if we’re going by the premise that the 1975 referendum is non binding now because it was supposedly all about a trade deal not sovereignty,is bollox.IE the ‘status quo’ in that case should be maintaining the nation’s sovereignty not remaining with the EU.IE by definition the latest referendum set the clock back to the status quo of pre EU membership 1972 having rightly rendered the referendum of 1975 void on the grounds that the issue is/should be first and foremost a decision regards sovereignty.On that note the vote for remain should be seen in that light.

As for the US war of independence analogy that’s totally out of line in that the US colonies were undeniably British there was never any country known as the USA.

The correct analogy was/is the American war of secession in which the established secessionist states wanted to secede from a Federal Union which was put in place ‘after’/at a later date than the original articles of Confederation and which originally gave the States sovereignty over the Union.There’s no way that our issues of secession from the EU have reached that point ‘yet’.Fast forward a few generations then yes quite possibly.

However ‘if’ we secede from the EU now or much later that obviously has implications regarding that ongoing historic ‘dispute’,as to state sovereignty,over Federal rule across the Atlantic.Time to post this again in that regard.

thetnm.org/a_word_on_the_uk_ … from_texas

Meanwhile more evidence that we’re talking about something much bigger here than just Brexit and ‘that’s’ why the Fderalists are getting panicky to the point of doing whatever it takes to stall and take out Brexit.No surprise you won’t see this on BBC news.

thetnm.org/tnm_takes_texit_t … _this_week

[franglais]

Winseer:
Tsipras is another classic example of “Mis-management”.

He could have turned on the printing presses, which is what I reckon Varoufakis wanted to do - but wasn’t allowed to by Tsipras.
Incapable of thinking outside the box, or deferring more power to Varoufakis - Tsipras thought the only source of future cash in the world - was the ECB which required him to sell his soul to keep being able to borrow from them. - And so that’s exactly what he ended up doing.

Varoufakis resigned, and now Greece is well and truly broken.
Unlike the UK - Greece doesn’t have to ability to wage war to dig itself out of this bottomless pit of despair of Tsipras’ own making.

The best leader a struggling EU member country can have right now - is an Economist. The best leader needed in the years to come - will be a General.

I thought, along with many others, that my view of the future was pretty grim. At least I`ve never looked forward to another war. . .

[carryfast]

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Remind us how EU membership is working for Greece in that regard.IE debt used to buy German imports.That ended well.

Can`t see how the Eu can be blamed for the failure of the National Greek government? And how much worse off would Greece be now without Eu support?

EDIT. I would attribute the Greek failure more to having a working life of a few years, backed with a long well paid retirement for civil servants, financed by borrowing against the future, not by borrowing to buy BMWs.
Due to years of underinvestment we can no longer feed ourselves as we expect to be fed. We can no longer produce goods as we once did. This is not the fault of the Eu. It is due to bad government by our own home grown politicians, and years of gov ineptitude and private profiteering. The likes of Phillip Green selling off the assets of BHS is the same as Thatcher selling off what MacMillan described as the “family silver”. That some of it happened at the same time as our Eu membership is not evidence of causality. The UKs economy isnt shot Because of the EU, it`s shot In Spite of being in the EU!
Many of our politicos have used the EU as an excuse for their own failings.

The figures don’t seem to fit your script.As I said UK net EU contributions and UK and EU debt used to buy German goods and create German jobs.

yanisvaroufakis.eu/2013/04/12/g … stragglers

When it’s clear that the answer for Greece isn’t just to dump the Euro but also leave the EU so it can put up trade barriers against German imports which it can’t afford or pay for.

[carryfast]

Franglais:
I thought, along with many others, that my view of the future was pretty grim. At least I`ve never looked forward to another war. . .

It’s very rarely that the argument between Federalism v Secession is settled peacefully.We’ve got the gift in this case of that rare scenario which we need to take while we can to save future generations facing that more common scenario.

At least until such time as Europe sees sense in going for a Confederal Europe,based on state sovereignty,consent and democratic accountability not a Federal one based on vindictiveness and centralised dictatorship.

[dolph]

Northern Ireland should push the EU to grant it special associate or even membership status to avoid the “devastating” consequences of Brexit for Irish people, Martin McGuinness has said.

The deputy first minister and Sinn Féin leader told the Guardian that leaders in Belfast and Dublin needed to work together to make the case for special rules to apply to Northern Ireland. The province voted 56:44 in favour of staying in the EU in June’s referendum, but will be forced to pull out when Britain does.

“As things sit at the moment we are going to suffer big time,” McGuinness said. “Theresa May says ‘Brexit means Brexit’, but so far as we are concerned Brexit means disaster for the people of Ireland.”

theguardian.com/world/2016/ … rn-ireland

[carryfast]

Dolph:
Northern Ireland should push the EU to grant it special associate or even membership status to avoid the “devastating” consequences of Brexit for Irish people, Martin McGuinness has said.

The deputy first minister and Sinn Féin leader told the Guardian that leaders in Belfast and Dublin needed to work together to make the case for special rules to apply to Northern Ireland. The province voted 56:44 in favour of staying in the EU in June’s referendum, but will be forced to pull out when Britain does.

“As things sit at the moment we are going to suffer big time,” McGuinness said. “Theresa May says ‘Brexit means Brexit’, but so far as we are concerned Brexit means disaster for the people of Ireland.”

theguardian.com/world/2016/ … rn-ireland

The muppet seems to have conveniently forgotten what Sinn Fein ‘actually’ stood for and what Irish ‘Nationalists’ fought and died for.No surprise they couldn’t reconcile Socialist with Nationalist so came down in favour of the former while conveniently ditching the latter.

arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi … workerpmat

The irony of a so called Irish ‘Nationalist’ wanting to swap UK rule for EU rule is as stupid as that of the SNP’s position regards same.While if the so called ‘loyalist’ majority in the North are as keen on the EU as the so called ‘Nationalists’ supposedly are the answer is obvious let the North rejoin the South job done everyone is happy.But yes realistically Brexit means the end of the UK in which ‘Brexit’ can only really be an English thing.Which is another reason why the Cons can’t/won’t deliver it and is also the catastrophic flaw in UKIP’s position of anti Federalist EU but Federalist UK.