by adam277 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:12 pm
noisycarl wrote:Fear not drivers, the people who started this mess, Cameron, Johnston and Jacob Rees-Mogg will be fine, their millions of pounds may take a bit of a bash in the short term, but given the Dunkirk spirit the plucky brits have, they will be fine!
Someone has been listening to James OBrien.
Another self opinion zb
albion:
adam277:
Has anyone noticed a lack of jobs to the brexit uncertainty? Seems to me its all the same..
We’re quiet, but it’s nothing to do with Brexit, it’s production issues. Given that IIIRC,Italy is in recession and Germany is close to, we probably won’t be far behind.
If you look back over last 40 years it’s about time we are due one 10/15 since last. My work is mainly related to construction and has been very up and down the last year. Don’t think it’s due to leaving EU but more the fact no one knows if we will and what kind of deal will we have so no one wants to commit to much
It it the case that Ooop Narth it is “quiet as usual” for this time of the year, whilst darn sarth - there does indeed seem to be a bit of a shortage of drivers - at least those prepared to work nights, weekends, and have a clean licence and blue card valid until 2024 in hand already…?
Now the lies of the leave idiots have been exposed , a people’s vote & a continuation of our partnership wit out European friends is the only the only way forward
dozy:
Now the lies of the leave idiots have been exposed , a people’s vote & a continuation of our partnership wit out European friends is the only the only way forward
The only lies were those told by Heath and all the other Federalist rabble to take us into the stinking EU 4th Reich.I’m guessing that the AfD or the FN aren’t part of your circle of European ‘friends’ your definition of friends obviously actually meaning only European Federalist morons.
We had a people’s vote in 2016 you know the one that your lot were happy enough with up until you lost it because the mountain of leave votes meant you couldn’t rig it well enough.
I think we can all see where this argument is heading as so often in the case of Federalism meeting the right of self determination and Nationalism head on throughout history.You can count the former Yugoslavia and the Austro Hungarian Empire and the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union and Brit rule in Ireland all fitting the definition of Federalism.Now added to by the self appointed EUSSR 4th Reich,like all those,hopefully to be history when Nationalism smashes it one way or another sooner or later.
Carryfast:
dozy:
Now the lies of the leave idiots have been exposed , a people’s vote & a continuation of our partnership wit out European friends is the only the only way forwardThe only lies were those told by Heath and all the other Federalist rabble to take us into the stinking EU 4th Reich.I’m guessing that the AfD or the FN aren’t part of your circle of European ‘friends’ your definition of friends obviously actually meaning only European Federalist morons.
We had a people’s vote in 2016 you know the one that your lot were happy enough with up until you lost it because the mountain of leave votes meant you couldn’t rig it well enough.
I think we can all see where this argument is heading as so often in the case of Federalism meeting the right of self determination and Nationalism head on throughout history.You can count the former Yugoslavia and the Austro Hungarian Empire and the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union and Brit rule in Ireland all fitting the definition of Federalism.Now added to by the self appointed EUSSR 4th Reich,like all those,hopefully to be history when Nationalism smashes it one way or another sooner or later.
Perhaps if we ended this daft obsession with “the world’s stage” as a country - we might be able to rule ourselves better - regardless of what country it is, and what side of politics rules it.
If you want to be socialist - then pay for it all yourselves, rather than nick the wealth of other nations to fund it.
The only thing there should NEVER be any room for on the world’s stage today is “Political Expansion”.
The EU is wrong to want to add further nations following the collapse of the USSR.
America is wrong to interfere in the Middle East.
Brazil is wrong to offend sensible decency in the name of “Liberalism”.
Russia is wrong to discourage MORE freedom of movement than it has.
China is wrong to “Great Fireway” it’s internet the way it does.
Africa is wrong to demand independence one minute, and then hold out the begging bowl the next.
Britain is wrong to even treat on the world political scene, - until at least it gets it’s Empire back. We can’t afford it - yet.
Winseer:
Carryfast:
dozy:
Now the lies of the leave idiots have been exposed , a people’s vote & a continuation of our partnership wit out European friends is the only the only way forwardThe only lies were those told by Heath and all the other Federalist rabble to take us into the stinking EU 4th Reich.I’m guessing that the AfD or the FN aren’t part of your circle of European ‘friends’ your definition of friends obviously actually meaning only European Federalist morons.
We had a people’s vote in 2016 you know the one that your lot were happy enough with up until you lost it because the mountain of leave votes meant you couldn’t rig it well enough.
I think we can all see where this argument is heading as so often in the case of Federalism meeting the right of self determination and Nationalism head on throughout history.You can count the former Yugoslavia and the Austro Hungarian Empire and the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union and Brit rule in Ireland all fitting the definition of Federalism.Now added to by the self appointed EUSSR 4th Reich,like all those,hopefully to be history when Nationalism smashes it one way or another sooner or later.
Perhaps if we ended this daft obsession with “the world’s stage” as a country - we might be able to rule ourselves better - regardless of what country it is, and what side of politics rules it.
If you want to be socialist - then pay for it all yourselves, rather than nick the wealth of other nations to fund it.
The only thing there should NEVER be any room for on the world’s stage today is “Political Expansion”.
The EU is wrong to want to add further nations following the collapse of the USSR.
America is wrong to interfere in the Middle East.
Brazil is wrong to offend sensible decency in the name of “Liberalism”.
Russia is wrong to discourage MORE freedom of movement than it has.
China is wrong to “Great Fireway” it’s internet the way it does.
Africa is wrong to demand independence one minute, and then hold out the begging bowl the next.
Britain is wrong to even treat on the world political scene, - until at least it gets it’s Empire back. We can’t afford it - yet.
So you think there’s no room for political expansion except restoring the British Empire or what? 
fuser84:
Winseer:
Perhaps if we ended this daft obsession with “the world’s stage” as a country - we might be able to rule ourselves better - regardless of what country it is, and what side of politics rules it.The only thing there should NEVER be any room for on the world’s stage today is “Political Expansion”.
The EU is wrong to want to add further nations following the collapse of the USSR.
America is wrong to interfere in the Middle East.
Brazil is wrong to offend sensible decency in the name of “Liberalism”.
Russia is wrong to discourage MORE freedom of movement than it has.
China is wrong to “Great Fireway” it’s internet the way it does.
Africa is wrong to demand independence one minute, and then hold out the begging bowl the next.
Britain is wrong to even treat on the world political scene, - until at least it gets it’s Empire back. We can’t afford it - yet.So you think there’s no room for political expansion except restoring the British Empire or what?
With the exception of long lost Canada and Australia/NZ the rest of the so called ‘Empire’ was predictably nothing but a liability to us anyway.
While ‘World Stage’ in this case only means the right of the internationally recognised de Facto nation states of Europe to go about their own sovereign business freely.Without interference from a bunch of neo Soviet Federalist Fascists,in the form of the EU and its supporters,pushing their stinking,illegal,invalid,unwanted,undeclared de Jure proto superstate on the place.IE ideally the argument needs to move on from Brexit and onto smashing the EU just like we had to smash the 3 rd Reich to protect Britain’s sovereign right to exist.As opposed to trying to isolate ourselves from the problem infesting Europe in the hope that it will leave us alone.
Interesting Times Indeed!
Labour MPs and now Tory MPs quitting their parties.
Sir Ivan Rogers talking about the increasing possibility and implications of a No Deal Brexit.
If I had any finger nails left, I’d be chewing them down now. Doubtless some can explain it all away as a cleverly stage managed stunt, but this as near chaos as I’ve seen.
Must admit I’m no Tory “fan boy” but Heidi Allen seems to be talking as much sense as anyone right now. Only slightly more sense than the new Tory Chairman spoke in 2002… Wonder what happened to her?
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Franglais:
Must admit I’m no Tory “fan boy” but Heidi Allen seems to be talking as much sense as anyone right now. Only slightly more sense than the new Tory Chairman spoke in 2002… Wonder what happened to her?
It’s obvious that your definition of ‘sense’ is fixed and hell bent on the single track notion of a Federal Europe.On that note these aren’t interesting times in that Europe is now virtually irreversibly set on a course which will very likely end up in a much bigger version of the former Yugoslavia.Ironically involving more outside influences and tensions acting on it from within,all led by the dodgy motivation of the …Germans like ex stasi Merkel and quisling puppets like Heidi Allen etc.What could possibly go wrong.Unless Nationalist Groups throughout Europe can nip it in the bud by smashing the proto de Jure EU superstate quick.On that note this is probably no time for Brit nationalists to isolate ourselves from our European nationalist allies like AfD and FN.
Franglais:
Interesting Times Indeed!Labour MPs and now Tory MPs quitting their parties.
Sir Ivan Rogers talking about the increasing possibility and implications of a No Deal Brexit.If I had any finger nails left, I’d be chewing them down now. Doubtless some can explain it all away as a cleverly stage managed stunt, but this as near chaos as I’ve seen.
Must admit I’m no Tory “fan boy” but Heidi Allen seems to be talking as much sense as anyone right now. Only slightly more sense than the new Tory Chairman spoke in 2002… Wonder what happened to her?
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The true test of these resignations and their strength of support will be come the next election you have to ask how many will get re-elected? I would only put money on Chukka getting back in Soubry has no hope in her current constituency although Vince Cable has hinted that they may not put anyone up against the 11 in the next election, true democracy at work there Vince denying your party supporters someone to vote, bang on form liberals only liberal when it suits them
Is this all, including what Mazzer is saying another sign of “first part the post” failing again?
One argument against PR is that a small group, holding the balance of power, has undue influence. But under FPTP look at the power of the SDP and the ERG.
Whether or not the Tory or Labour rebels get re-elected is doubtful tis true. So we can’t accuse them of being unprincipled. They are putting their beliefs above personal position, and are (in their view) putting country before party.
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Franglais:
Is this all, including what Mazzer is saying another sign of “first part the post” failing again?
One argument against PR is that a small group, holding the balance of power, has undue influence. But under FPTP look at the power of the SDP and the ERG.
Whether or not the Tory or Labour rebels get re-elected is doubtful tis true. So we can’t accuse them of being unprincipled. They are putting their beliefs above personal position, and are (in their view) putting country before party.Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
I agree that the electoral system needs reform but when it was put to the country in a referendum they rejected change and opted for the status quo. It is good to see MP’s putting their principles before the party and have total sympathy with the Labour leavers , however if Soubry is so principled why did she stand at the last election? She was representing a constituency whose views were at complete odds to hers, it would have been principled to let someone else with views closer to the voters stand and for her to say that she couldn’t represent them as their views differed so much. The ex Labour MP’s may well do ok in the next election but I think we will hear no more from the Tory ones after the next election and at the moment the ex Labour members are happy to take the ex Tories as it boosts their numbers but even tho both groups represent the moderate side of their ex parties here are some quite large ideological difference between the two groups.
Franglais:
Is this all, including what Mazzer is saying another sign of “first part the post” failing again?
One argument against PR is that a small group, holding the balance of power, has undue influence. But under FPTP look at the power of the SDP and the ERG.
Whether or not the Tory or Labour rebels get re-elected is doubtful tis true. So we can’t accuse them of being unprincipled. They are putting their beliefs above personal position, and are (in their view) putting country before party.Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
I agree that the electoral system needs reform but when it was put to the country in a referendum they rejected change and opted for the status quo. It is good to see MP’s putting their principles before the party and have total sympathy with the Labour leavers , however if Soubry is so principled why did she stand at the last election? She was representing a constituency whose views were at complete odds to hers, it would have been principled to let someone else with views closer to the voters stand and for her to say that she couldn’t represent them as their views differed so much. The ex Labour MP’s may well do ok in the next election but I think we will hear no more from the Tory ones after the next election and at the moment the ex Labour members are happy to take the ex Tories as it boosts their numbers but even tho both groups represent the moderate side of their ex parties here are some quite large ideological difference between the two groups.
In a PR system we may get economically left/right pro EU and
economically left/right anti EU groups.
Maybe anti EU, free trade and protectionist groups.
They’d form fluid alliances in different issues.
If there were an election tomorrow no major party would represent the Pro EU voter. Just as two years ago none represented the Anti EU voter.
Sure there are UKIP and LibDems but under FPTP they are almost wasted votes.
FPTP worked well when MPs rode horses up to town, but not today.
Edit. Written at same time as Mazzer was posting…
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Franglais:
Is this all, including what Mazzer is saying another sign of “first part the post” failing again?
One argument against PR is that a small group, holding the balance of power, has undue influence. But under FPTP look at the power of the SDP and the ERG.
Whether or not the Tory or Labour rebels get re-elected is doubtful tis true. So we can’t accuse them of being unprincipled. They are putting their beliefs above personal position, and are (in their view) putting country before party .
Your and their definition of ‘country’ in that case obviously being the EU because the EU Federation is mutually exclusive with the idea of a Europe made up of sovereign nation states ( countries ).Powell being the only Conservative who ever put his ‘country’ before party and which is the definition of a nationalist and which to any EU Federalist would obviously be an anathema as proved by his fate.As opposed to every Conservative MP from Heath on.
While you’re also obviously confusing the ‘method’ of electing MP’s to the house with the resulting actions of that representation.IE the situation of an alliance of minority groups being able to out vote the party with the largest vote ‘within the house’ applies in either case.Which is why there are numerous examples of a minority uk government being brought down because it can’t find enough allies to get anything through.While,unlike the situation in which 4 million votes at best buys one UKIP MP,PR actually just means that there is a direct proportional link between the numbers of votes for a party and the ‘amount of representation’ that buys in the house.Nothing to do with how that representation then applies itself when it’s been elected.
Franglais:
If there were an election tomorrow no major party would represent the Pro EU voter.
Are you seriously suggesting that the SNP,LibDems,Conservative and Labour are all anti EU.You’re avin a larf.
Mazzer2:
I agree that the electoral system needs reform but when it was put to the country in a referendum they rejected change and opted for the status quo.
We never had any choice of PR put to the country only AV ( second etc preference ) which ain’t the same thing.While we vote on a PR basis at every MEP election.Hence UKIP’s much larger presence.
I deeply dislike these MPs that formed a new party.
They want to Ignore the result of the referendum or call another referendum which is the same thing. As the people didn’t know what they was voting for.
They won’t give their constituents a chance to vote for them again in byelections as these MPs know better…
They come across as very undemocratic people.
I originally voted remain and regardless of the outcome I would if honored the result.
Hoping they all lose their seats when all the constituents who only voted for them due to Corbyn or may get a chance to show them how they feel.
Imagine if you voted for your local Mp only because you liked Corbyn and labour then for them to go independent and they undermine him completely and then not even give you the chance to vote again.
adam277:
I deeply dislike these MPs that formed a new party.They want to Ignore the result of the referendum or call another referendum which is the same thing. As the people didn’t know what they was voting for.
They won’t give their constituents a chance to vote for them again in byelections as these MPs know better…They come across as very undemocratic people.
I originally voted remain and regardless of the outcome I would if honored the result.Hoping they all lose their seats when all the constituents who only voted for them due to Corbyn or may get a chance to show them how they feel.
Imagine if you voted for your local Mp only because you liked Corbyn and labour then for them to go independent and they undermine him completely and then not even give you the chance to vote again.
Let’s get this right you actually voted for the EU Federation which means an elite unelected Politburo pass laws and policies to apply here.Which are then rubber stamped and implemented by a majority foreign MEP vote,based on a foreign mandate which can ( too ) easily out number our own national MEP group and mandate.IE no democratic accountability over the decision making process whatsoever.Unlike a Confederal Europe which would allow the supreme right of opt out and substitution for the national MEP groups over all decisions.
In which case yes anti democratic goes with the ideological Federalist territory and can be taken as a given.Which surprises you how ?.
As for Labour MP’s selectively moving the goal posts to suit themselves in that regard we’ve seen it all before.When those like Williams and Jenkins,somehow managed to reverse the Party’s democratic majority decision to support Brexit in 1975,then allied with Heath and Thatcher and having installed Callaghan in the leadership job,with all too predictable consequences for the Brit working class, finally still predictably threw their toys out of the pram even after getting what they wanted.The rest is history.
How different it all could have been if we’d have had an alliance of Powell led Conservative and Benn/Shore led Labour in 1975. 
As for Corbyn isn’t this the same Corbyn who installed Starmer in the job of shadow Brexit minister instead of Hoey after the majority of Labour voters voted Leave.The obvious answer to your post being be careful what you wish for because we’ve seen it all before.With the predictable result that Europe is now heading for a much bigger version of a Yugoslav type implosion in the form of a war of Federal aggression,with Catalonia and France being the practice grounds,but without any organised well armed Nationalist Militias to oppose it,if it isn’t careful and the EU 4th Reich and its tin pot despotic Macron and Merkel style leadership can’t be smashed first.