Boris

[winseer]

The biggest mistake the Europeans made - was creating a Socialist “United States of Europe” rather than letting Britain take what are now the member states into the British Empire which still existed at the time of the “Liberation”.

“Federal?”

It all comes down to “Do UK-based Socialists prefer a Foreign Socialist power to rule them, or a home-grown Tory Power”.

Brexit - has shown the divisions here for what they are: They are not on “Party Lines” - but IDEOLOGICAL lines.

Remainer Socialists - form the majority of the 48%.
There are very few “Right Wing Remainers”, even across the entire European continent.

Brexiteer conservatives (with a small ‘c’) - are the majority of the 52%.
Remainer conservatives, seem to by fairly represented by the dwindling number of the same in Parliament.

The winning or losing of Brexit - will be based upon "who can get the lukewarmers over to their side first.

Would Labour leave voters tactically vote Farage or Boris - just to get Brexit done?
Would Conservative Remain voters who cannot stand Corbyn or Swinson - be prepared to do the same?

There’s your winning edge - right there, if so.

“Federalism” - is for Empire-sized states - NOT Islands that once ran an Empire far in excess of that Island’s mere numbers.
I don’t worry about “Federalism” taking hold, once we’ve left the EU. Brexit should prove to be an “innoculation” against such moves by foreign powers in the future as well.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
The biggest mistake the Europeans made - was creating a Socialist “United States of Europe” rather than letting Britain take what are now the member states into the British Empire which still existed at the time of the “Liberation”.

“Federal?”

It all comes down to “Do UK-based Socialists prefer a Foreign Socialist power to rule them, or a home-grown Tory Power”.

Brexit - has shown the divisions here for what they are: They are not on “Party Lines” - but IDEOLOGICAL lines.

Remainer Socialists - form the majority of the 48%.
There are very few “Right Wing Remainers”, even across the entire European continent.

Brexiteer conservatives (with a small ‘c’) - are the majority of the 52%.
Remainer conservatives, seem to by fairly represented by the dwindling number of the same in Parliament.

The winning or losing of Brexit - will be based upon "who can get the lukewarmers over to their side first.

Would Labour leave voters tactically vote Farage or Boris - just to get Brexit done?
Would Conservative Remain voters who cannot stand Corbyn or Swinson - be prepared to do the same?

There’s your winning edge - right there, if so.

“Federalism” - is for Empire-sized states - NOT Islands that once ran an Empire far in excess of that Island’s mere numbers.
I don’t worry about “Federalism” taking hold, once we’ve left the EU. Brexit should prove to be an “innoculation” against such moves by foreign powers in the future as well.

Firstly the UK is a Federation since around 1066 with the exceptions of temporary Scottish Secession and later Irish Secession in 1920.Germany is a Federation and the USA is a massive Federation.Federalism certainly is an ideology in itself in its own right certainly not dependent on Socialism.Whether it then goes for the Soviet Socialist version or the US version is acedemic.The key point being that Federations make it easier for despots to take them over providing them with a massive ready made catchment area to impose their will over whether Bismark,Stalin,Lincoln or Tito or King Edward 1 etc.

There are no lukewarmers or sitters on the fence between Federalism v Nationalism/Secession.Wars have been fought over it numerous people have given their lives over it on both opposing sides.On that note Federalism is just another form of corrupted Nationalism including the even more corrupted Soviet model as you’ve seen with all the fanatical EU muppets waving their EU flags just as the Bolsheviks waved their Hammer and Sickle and the US Unionist Lincolnites the stars and stripes and the JNA supporters the Yugoslav flag as they went on the rampage across Slovenia etc.Don’t underestimate the nature of the beast facing us in that regard.This is anything but a small argument between moderate sides which can be settled over tea and biscuits at the local community centre meeting and election.This can only get ( much ) more divisive and more polarised as time goes on with remainer Tories having more in common with remainer Soviets.As it stands the Remainers having the initiative and the resources not us.With history suggesting that there can be no way that a country can make Secession stick with this type and amount of Federalist loyalist division within regardless.( Missouri 1861-65 ).

[winseer]

It has been a while in history since we had a new system of government.

If we cannot get one that actually works for the 21st century, then perhaps it is time to re-consider the old ones, and variations thereof.

Pharonic Monarchy
Plato’s Republic
Greek City-State Democracy
Benevolent Despotism

but NOT:-

Divine Right
Banana Republic
Democrats and what they call “Democracy” and “Democratic”
Run-of-the-mill Despotism.

It should be an interesting thing to watch “unpicking” one side of the same coin from the other, to distill us as pure essence from two otherwise failed extremes…

NOT “Centerism” - but an entirely new compound of politics…

[carryfast]

Winseer:
It has been a while in history since we had a new system of government.

If we cannot get one that actually works for the 21st century, then perhaps it is time to re-consider the old ones, and variations thereof.

Pharonic Monarchy
Plato’s Republic
Greek City-State Democracy
Benevolent Despotism

but NOT:-

Divine Right
Banana Republic
Democrats and what they call “Democracy” and “Democratic”
Run-of-the-mill Despotism.

It should be an interesting thing to watch “unpicking” one side of the same coin from the other, to distill us as pure essence from two otherwise failed extremes…

NOT “Centerism” - but an entirely new compound of politics…

You can call it what you like but what won’t work ( sooner or later ) is a government which says that we don’t care that the majority here wants xyz because the majority of voters 500,1,000,2,000,3,000 miles away in a different country,or possibly even 100 miles away within the same country regarding a local issue which only applies within a 20 mile radius,want zyx and that’s what you’re going to get.

Strange how the LibDems were supposedly all about ‘local democracy’.That turned out to be a laugh with Vince Cable calling for Green Belt development based on a London mandate where the closest thing they’ve got to any countryside to protect is Bushey Park and Liz won’t allow the zb’s to touch that.Then they go one better by saying that a majority foreign European mandate overrules our own with no right of opt out or substitution.Local democracy yeah right.

[winseer]

The true threat to “Democracy” throughout all this - is that “We have argued the toss at how to count the votes, how to interpret people’s majority wishes, and how to make promises to that electorate whilst having no intention of keeping such promises”.

For too long, our poltiical parties have argued “I will screw you less than the other party, so vote for ME” rather than “We have a totally different vision that leaves YOU better off, and here’s how…”

What are Remainers and/or the Left offering us as an alternative to Brexit/The Tories?

“Another Tory government will ensure that Darth Boris eats your brain, and Nigel Farage will say racist things to Khaaan and upset him, costing you your life”

Ok, let’s take that for a given: Now WHAT do I get if I support Remain/Labour■■? C’mon! Starter for Ten! I’ll have to hurry you here… Nope? No clue? Not even some freeibies for middle-of-the-road Me?

The bottom line folks, is that I won’t be voting for something that makes me worse off. That’s it. I know what makes me worse off, and it is higher taxes to be spent on someone who isn’t me. call that selfish if you like, but when the recipiants of my hard-earned taxes paid - is then ungrateful for what they have received at “my involuntary generosity”, and may even want to harm me and mine - then the time has come to cry ENOUGH!

Remainers argue that “Brexit makes us worse off”. Does it? They are not gamblers - so why should we take the word of someone who’s clearly speculating about the future, and never actually gambles?
Would you buy ■■■■■ Protection Insurance from a Man-hating Lesbian?

“Crashing Out” - is pure speculation.
“Disastrous No Deal Brexit” - is pure speculation.
“Not what the people voted for” - is a pure fabrication.
“Cannot leave without a deal” - is defeatist, especially when one doesn’t come up with a BETTER idea, if someone else’s “won’t do”…

The EU have no doubt spent billions trying to crash the UK economy, or cause something else “Negative” over the past three years whilst May has deliberately strung out Brexit, now we have the benefit of hindsight.
No Dice Though. The Brexit crowd - are unwavering by this point.

If Boris delivers - we’ll support him
If he doesn’t deliver for ANY reason - we’ll probably go with Farage.

That means if Boris now fails - the next government will either involve Farage (highly unlikely) OR involve a Labour Coalition with Brexit party becoming the new opposition (being the largest party guaranteet NOT to be in any Labour-led coalition). This leaves the Conservatives totally destroyed, totally defined by Brexit in the end.

Dunno where this Leftist Coalition of Chaos is going to get any money to pay everyone’s benefits from Post-Remain, - even maintaining CURRENT benefit levels… Raising Taxes? - Only good if the economy doesn’t crash in the meantime. No good if you are a PAYE worker who cannot get out of paying those higher taxes using expenses offsets. The PAYE worker will resent the tax dodger more and more, leading us more towards a “France 1789” scenario, which isn’t exactly a future I’d wish upon anyone, let alone my fellow Brits…

[rob22888]

Winseer:
Our opinions would diverge there.

I safely predict that the next election - will have the biggest turnout ever, even with attempts made to “lose a few ballot boxes” in the most strongly polarized areas (where they won’t be missed by the Remainer establishment)

When you ask people on the streets “How are you looking at voting at the next election” - and you hear:

“I’m a Remainer, so I’ll be backing the Libdems if I’m Pro Globalist, Anti Corbyn or vice-versa”

“I’m a Right Winger who backs Brexit Party if we’ve not had Brexit, or Boris if he delivers in time”

“I don’t care about politics, and I don’t vote” (more likely meaning that I will vote Conservative, but I live in a Remainer area, so I’d better keep my head down)

It always comes as a surprise to the pundits - when the Tories always always always seem to do “better than expected” in elections. Even in 1997, John Major’s disastrous Pro EU, Anti Taxpayer government we waited nearly five years to see the back of - only lost half their seats, and polled just 4m under Blair’s Labour (when we’d expect them to get crushed down to a double digit number of seats, and poll TEN million under Blair’s Labour!)

There are only so many floating voters of course. Core voters - are always there, unmoved. Labourites - will vote Labour even if their local candidate is a kiddie fiddler, whilst the “Tory Faithful” - would vote for a councillor who’s just sent the bayliffs around to re-possess their house… The vast majority of “floating voters” - are going to be either those who’ve not voted before, OR those who used to habitually vote for “Outsider Parties” like I have done my entire life so far. I’ve yet to vote for a fresh winning parliamentary candidate. I voted Libdem in 2010, but the seat was held by Labour. I voted Tory in 2017 to help stop the seat going to Labour - but in the end, he held on by over 10,000 majority - so my vote meant nothing as per usual. Perhaps next time, Brexit Party might be able to take this seat off it’s current “Born Again Brexiteer” incumbent, who has been rather too quiet after “respecting the party line” on Brexit, despite voting Remain originally. The very type of seat that Brexit Party should be seeking to unseat REGARDLESS of the size of the majority!

The time has come for a second referendum to resolve Brexit BEFORE we have a general election.

I’ve never really been keen on this before, but I am uneasy at the prospect of many people flocking to the polls to vote for a party predominantly based on their Brexit position, without properly scrutinising the rest of their manifesto for which they will be providing whatever party a mandate to implement. The Brexit Party for instance, barely have a manifesto at present yet Brexiteers would probably vote for them without even considering what their stance is on anything else. In the same way hard remainers would likely vote for the Lib Dems in hope of Brexit being cancelled, without scutising their manifesto.

This is franky barmy and dangerous, an open door for parties to try and sneak through controversial policies. Brexit needs resolving first via a legally binding second referendum, then we can have a general election campaign carried out with proper emphasis on all the other day to day political issues that effect peoples lives.

With no deal outlawed, the question would have to be Brexit Deal vs No Brexit.

[juddian]

Manifestos have been discredited by the disgraceful behaviour of so many individuals within the HoC, the last 3 years have shown to millions of voters who maybe didn’t take enough interest in their representatives exactly what they are.

The Lords are not what they once were either, at one time a sensible second chamber of mostly heredity peers who in the main didn’t have political allegiances or ‘favours’ needing repaying…imagine for one moment the current Commons Speaker being given the traditional peerage , well he’s a prime example of the type Blair and his protege Cameron stuffed inside the building over the last 20 years.

Who to vote for in the next general election is going to be a tricky one, as said all will hinge on whether we actually leave with either a real deal (not May’s rehashed surrender vassal state treaty) or no deal.

I hold no candle for Johnson nor do i have an axe to grind with him, he is in the unfortunate position of having two parliaments completely against leaving the EU, two parliaments that have proved themselves in the main to be anti democracy when the result doesn’t suit them (perfect apparatchiks to run the undemocratic EU vassal state of former Britain i suppose), untrustworthy is the mildest of terms to describe many, the term traitor covers quite a few, many hold the electorate the people of this country in contempt, the current labour front bench and the recent tory front bench no finer examples of the types.

It must be depressing and disillusioning for the genuine democratic patriotic members in both parties, and yes they are there in both parties, to have to sit beside and see their parliament reduced to what it has now become, probably why Hoey for one is going, or at least not standing for Labour again.

Personally i’m in a quandry about who to vote for, my MP has proved to be a genuine Brexiteer all the way through and he deserves my vote even if his party up till Johnson taking over hjave proved since 2010 they didn’t deserve (nor did they get) my vote, if we fail to leave on the 31st Oct my heart tells me to vote Brexit Party.

I hope Johnson and Farage can come to an accommodation in the event we don’t leave on the 31st due to the action of traitors, it would be stupid in the extreme to put a BP candidate up against my MP, better for TBP to stand candidates in places where the possible Tory is going to struggle or is proven to be a pro EU shill who previously promised to honour the referendum result and dishonoured their word.

The present Labour party are terrifying, the front bench would be better off in circus make up with stick on noses in size 20 shoes driving a car into the ring which backfires and falls apart, the new LibDum leader has already stated that even in the event of a second referendum voted leave they would not honour the result, so as usual neither liberal nor democrat.

[carryfast]

rob22888:
The time has come for a second referendum to resolve Brexit BEFORE we have a general election.with proper emphasis on all the other day to day political issues that effect peoples lives.

With no deal outlawed, the question would have to be Brexit Deal vs No Brexit.

So you’re saying that the original referendum didn’t go the way the remainers wanted.So let’s have a another referendum with just the specific choice of BRINO or Remain.

Which would fix it all how when the mandate was ‘Leave’ means Leave.You know no EU rule to apply here.No ECJ or ECHR juristiction and no further contributions.Tell us which ‘deal’ could/would the EU possibly offer us which would deliver that.Oh wait you’re obviously an EU Federalist and you don’t actually want any deal which would offer all that even if you for one minute really thought the EU would agree to it.

[carryfast]

Juddian:
Manifestos have been discredited by the disgraceful behaviour of so many individuals within the HoC, the last 3 years have shown to millions of voters who maybe didn’t take enough interest in their representatives exactly what they are.

The Lords are not what they once were either, at one time a sensible second chamber of mostly heredity peers who in the main didn’t have political allegiances or ‘favours’ needing repaying…imagine for one moment the current Commons Speaker being given the traditional peerage , well he’s a prime example of the type Blair and his protege Cameron stuffed inside the building over the last 20 years.

Who to vote for in the next general election is going to be a tricky one, as said all will hinge on whether we actually leave with either a real deal (not May’s rehashed surrender vassal state treaty) or no deal.

I hold no candle for Johnson nor do i have an axe to grind with him, he is in the unfortunate position of having two parliaments completely against leaving the EU, two parliaments that have proved themselves in the main to be anti democracy when the result doesn’t suit them (perfect apparatchiks to run the undemocratic EU vassal state of former Britain i suppose), untrustworthy is the mildest of terms to describe many, the term traitor covers quite a few, many hold the electorate the people of this country in contempt, the current labour front bench and the recent tory front bench no finer examples of the types.

It must be depressing and disillusioning for the genuine democratic patriotic members in both parties, and yes they are there in both parties, to have to sit beside and see their parliament reduced to what it has now become, probably why Hoey for one is going, or at least not standing for Labour again.

Personally i’m in a quandry about who to vote for, my MP has proved to be a genuine Brexiteer all the way through and he deserves my vote even if his party up till Johnson taking over hjave proved since 2010 they didn’t deserve (nor did they get) my vote, if we fail to leave on the 31st Oct my heart tells me to vote Brexit Party.

I hope Johnson and Farage can come to an accommodation in the event we don’t leave on the 31st due to the action of traitors, it would be stupid in the extreme to put a BP candidate up against my MP, better for TBP to stand candidates in places where the possible Tory is going to struggle or is proven to be a pro EU shill who previously promised to honour the referendum result and dishonoured their word.

The present Labour party are terrifying, the front bench would be better off in circus make up with stick on noses in size 20 shoes driving a car into the ring which backfires and falls apart, the new LibDum leader has already stated that even in the event of a second referendum voted leave they would not honour the result, so as usual neither liberal nor democrat.

I’ve reached the conclusion that the country probably isn’t worth saving from itself.As for BoJo just another Federalist shill like May and all the rest of that rotten rabble regardless of how good an act they do or don’t put on to cover it.Farage showed where he stood in trashing Batten and ironically yes I think the loss ( exile ) of both Hoey and Batten were the final straw for me.In which case my guess will just be re run of the 2017 GE farce but this time based on a much lower turnout with loads of the Leave vote not bothering to vote me being one and the remainers getting what they want.This argument was never going to be settled democratically anyway and the country’s stinking government has condemned future generations to a war of Federal aggression v Secession to free themselves from it.Ironically possibly starting when the call up papers for the Russian front,to serve in a German war of unfinished business,start arriving.

[winseer]

Ultimately, the “Second Referendum” the people really want - is a GENERAL ELECTION which suddenly, the Mainstream “Remainer Opposition” are seemingly united in NOT wanting.

There’s no point having this so-called “People’s vote” - since we’ve yet to implement ANY of the 2016 result. “Sitting on it for three years” - and then “Pretending that massive mandate is now stale” - is NOT an excuse for non-delivery. The only way we can trust the opposition to get behind their OWN legislative moves already done - is to change the LOT of them.

I predict a surge for both the Greens and Brexit Party at the next election - totally at ALL mainstream party’s expense.

Even the Libdem anticipated “Surge” will turn out to be a damp squib in the end, I reckon…

If Boris Johnson manages to now deliver a WTO Brexit on October 31st as promise - he’d become even MORE of a legend if he promptly gets jailed straight after…
If he doesn’t deliver for ANY reason, regardless of whom he might blame for “Blocking him” - he’s TOAST.

Now the Tories need to drop this five-year old policy of “Stop Farage at any cost even winning a single Westmisnter seat” - and bloody well get on with it the obvious way it should have been done from the very beginning. - With Farage’s HELP rather than about-to-be 600 BP candidates splitting the vote in all seats…

There’s even room by this point for Labour Leave voters to “lend their votes to Farage” knowing that the official line is “Vote Farage, get Labour” - which would suit them fine of course!

Would a staunch Labour voter “Tactically” vote Brexit Party to get rid of an incumbent Tory? - You tell me.

The Buckingham seat - would be a classic exmaple: Should Bewcow end up being the official Conservative Party candidate at the next election after all, then traditionally any party with seats already at Westminster “doesn’t stand against the Speaker”. This means the Libdems and Labour - won’t be fielding a candidate (didn’t stop the Greens though…) Andrew Bell is already declared as the Brexit Party candidate in what will look to be a Two-horse race there at the next election.

Labour voters - have no labour candidate to vote for. Would they vote Brexit Party to get rid of the speaker■■?
In other seats where there is a Tory incumbent, you ain’t gonna make much difference voting for a Labour candidate who was third, fourth or even lower at the last election - but a Brexit Party candidate snapping at the incumbent’s heels? - What do you want more? A wasted vote for a weak Labour candidate who cannot possibly overtake 3 or more other parties to win - or - a Tory OUT beaten by a candidate who are highly unlikely to win enough seats to even become the opposition, let alone an outright government.

This week’s “Starter for Ten” there…

[rob22888]

Carryfast:

rob22888:
The time has come for a second referendum to resolve Brexit BEFORE we have a general election.with proper emphasis on all the other day to day political issues that effect peoples lives.

With no deal outlawed, the question would have to be Brexit Deal vs No Brexit.

So you’re saying that the original referendum didn’t go the way the remainers wanted.So let’s have a another referendum with just the specific choice of BRINO or Remain.

Which would fix it all how when the mandate was ‘Leave’ means Leave.You know no EU rule to apply here.No ECJ or ECHR juristiction and no further contributions.Tell us which ‘deal’ could/would the EU possibly offer us which would deliver that.Oh wait you’re obviously an EU Federalist and you don’t actually want any deal which would offer all that even if you for one minute really thought the EU would agree to it.

But a general election right now would essentially be a second referendum anyway. The brexiteers would get behind the Tories & Brexit Party in hope of it being pushed through “come what may” at the end of October & all the remainers would get behind whatever party gives them the hope the whole thing might get called off. Brexit would dominate the entire election proceedings.

Fast forward 6 months and then it starts dawning on people that it wasn’t just Brexit they were voting on, rather a whole manifesto which could include all manner of duff policies they don’t support yet could actually effect your day to day life.

There has never been a mandate for “leave means leave”. 52% voted for brexit but many on the basis we would get a deal, the leave campaigns were continually explicit in the idea that it would be “the easiest deal in history” when issues like the Irish border were always going to be a stumbling block. Remember “they need us more than we need them” and “the german car industry will be demanding the UK gets a quality deal” etc. All bluster. The government in my eyes have done what they can up against the EU’s red lines to try and come up with a Brexit deal that satisfies everybody on the Brexit spectrum from hard-moderate brexiteers whilst limiting economic damage but this obviously hasn’t worked & we are where we are.

There is no new deal with the EU to be had, it’s total unicorn fantasy. The EU have been explicit time & time again that we aren’t getting a new deal, have forever been consistent with their red lines & know that we will have to go back to them cap in hand after a no deal brexit anyway for a trade deal. The Tories are playing a political game to try and eradicate the threat of the Brexit Party in order to come back from the dead to win a general election.

I’m not particularly an “EU Federalist”, just don’t really see how leaving the EU solves our problems and improves my life. I don’t think we should be leaving but only really because I don’t think 52% is a satisfactory majority for such a massive change in direction for the country which such a wide scope of impact. Like last week in the commons where 66% of parliament had to agree to an early election, a similar minimum majority should have applied for Brexit to happen so that a comprehensive result was required to avoid the amount of division we now have in society.

[carryfast]

rob22888:

Carryfast:

rob22888:
The time has come for a second referendum to resolve Brexit BEFORE we have a general election.with proper emphasis on all the other day to day political issues that effect peoples lives.

With no deal outlawed, the question would have to be Brexit Deal vs No Brexit.

So you’re saying that the original referendum didn’t go the way the remainers wanted.So let’s have a another referendum with just the specific choice of BRINO or Remain.

Which would fix it all how when the mandate was ‘Leave’ means Leave.You know no EU rule to apply here.No ECJ or ECHR juristiction and no further contributions.Tell us which ‘deal’ could/would the EU possibly offer us which would deliver that.Oh wait you’re obviously an EU Federalist and you don’t actually want any deal which would offer all that even if you for one minute really thought the EU would agree to it.

But a general election right now would essentially be a second referendum anyway. The brexiteers would get behind the Tories & Brexit Party in hope of it being pushed through “come what may” at the end of October & all the remainers would get behind whatever party gives them the hope the whole thing might get called off. Brexit would dominate the entire election proceedings.

Fast forward 6 months and then it starts dawning on people that it wasn’t just Brexit they were voting on, rather a whole manifesto which could include all manner of duff policies they don’t support yet could actually effect your day to day life.

There has never been a mandate for “leave means leave”. 52% voted for brexit but many on the basis we would get a deal, the leave campaigns were continually explicit in the idea that it would be “the easiest deal in history” when issues like the Irish border were always going to be a stumbling block. Remember “they need us more than we need them” and “the german car industry will be demanding the UK gets a quality deal” etc. All bluster. The government in my eyes have done what they can up against the EU’s red lines to try and come up with a Brexit deal that satisfies everybody on the Brexit spectrum from hard-moderate brexiteers whilst limiting economic damage but this obviously hasn’t worked & we are where we are.

There is no new deal with the EU to be had, it’s total unicorn fantasy. The EU have been explicit time & time again that we aren’t getting a new deal, have forever been consistent with their red lines & know that we will have to go back to them cap in hand after a no deal brexit anyway for a trade deal. The Tories are playing a political game to try and eradicate the threat of the Brexit Party in order to come back from the dead to win a general election.

I’m not particularly an “EU Federalist”, just don’t really see how leaving the EU solves our problems and improves my life. I don’t think we should be leaving but only really because I don’t think 52% is a satisfactory majority for such a massive change in direction for the country which such a wide scope of impact. Like last week in the commons where 66% of parliament had to agree to an early election, a similar minimum majority should have applied for Brexit to happen so that a comprehensive result was required to avoid the amount of division we now have in society.

A remainer telling us what we voted for.There is no possible ‘deal’ that the EU would agree to which wouldn’t mean submitting to the ongoing blackmail of Sovereignty and cash for trade.So tell us what is supposedly so good about this relationship with Europe which costs us more than we can afford in net contributions and a massive trade deficit.

As for 52% not being good enough you’re avin a typical Federalist laugh.You’d have been quite happy to declare that a win for remain if it had been the other way round.

On that note I’d have refused to recognise any remain win regardless just the same.Because we’re actually discussing the non negotiable issue of which country we owe our allegiance to and which government rules over us and the democratic accountability which we have over it in that regard.

The fact that you want to be ruled by a foreign power run by ■■■■ descended megalomaniacs and foreign majority vote and your allegiance is to a foreign flag I couldn’t care less about.As I’ve said people wouldn’t have had to give their lives over this issue throughout history if they thought it could be settled by any type of zb vote.What next let’s give away the country in a card game.Although the Federalists would still rig the cards using a bent dealer regardless.

[winseer]

There is a danger that should Boris prove to be the “EU’s clandestine last line of defence” - that we might be tricked into voting for a majority conservative government BEFORE Brexit gets delivered - only to have it kicked down the road for another five years, more than enough time for even recently-encashed Brexit Party to be running out of money all over again.

If Boris actually delivers his promises BEFORE that next general election - than I will, of course support the Conservatives.

I agree with Farage’s current stance that "Boris could well be playing us all for fools, and should not be trusted unless and until a pact is made between Brexit Party and the Conservatives. "

Any future majority of the Conservatives has GOT to come from the support of Labour Leavers in my mind.
I have a funny feeling though that many Labour Leave voters - would rather have Farage in Parliament “holding Boris back” rather than throwing Farage’s party under the bus all over again - just to give us a majority government that may then NOT go on to deliver Brexit AT ALL. AND be “Not a Labour Government” of course…

If you want Brexit, but don’t trust the Tories - it makes best sense to vote Brexit Party then.
If you normally vote Conservative, and are having trust issues with Boris - it makes sense to vote BP as well.

Only if you are a Remainer - does it make sense to “stick to your normal voting parameters”.

The next election should be about “Raising money from means other than higher taxation to end Austerity”.

Either one believes in the Brexit Dividend acting as “Magic Money Tree” - or one believes in Labour’s spin about “Taxpayers will be asked to pay a little more” - likely to be “little” in that a 9% increase in direct taxation is “at least a single digit figure”.

Oh yes, “The Wealthy” will be the usual definition: Not the poor, who don’t earn enough to pay taxes. Not the Rich, who use an accountant to reduce their tax bills. But the middle-earning PAYE taxpayer who MUST pay any tax hikes IN FULL at all times - or be thrown in jail.

I have never been able to bring myself to vote Labour - because they never seem to rule out tax hikes in their election manifestos, and of course over Brexit - by simply refusing to acknowledge that the Magic Money Trees Three
(Money we pay the EU, Foreign Aid Budget, Non-24/7 criminal justice system) even exist as a means of raising enough capital to rule out higher taxation pretty-much indefinitely.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
There is a danger that should Boris prove to be the “EU’s clandestine last line of defence” - that we might be tricked into voting for a majority conservative government BEFORE Brexit gets delivered - only to have it kicked down the road for another five years

It’s not a case of if/should he is/be working for the EU like all the rest of them.He allows just enough time for the Germans to send this pre arranged foreign list of demands through effectively crippling any type of real Brexit.It gets passed in the Commons then the Lords then instead of holding onto it and not giving it to the Queen for assent,at which point the prorogation would have quashed it,he actually makes sure she gets it and…just like the European Communities Act before that she then signed it.

So there we have it we will get Brexit by the end of October but it won’t be BREXIT as we would have known it.It will be May’s BRINO deal,you know like BoJo voted for before with the premise always being on maintaining the status quo as if the vote had been Remain.Proof that BoJo is just another Federalist Tory and the Queen is living up to her German descent as usual.

[winseer]

Indeed. If we have not left by this time next year, the Lisbon thing kicks-in, and we’re well and truly impaled, and left on the fence to slowly perish.

I still can’t imagine why it is that so many ordinary working people support Remain with all the crap that is coming in the pipeline…

It is like “Next year, we will kill you. But you’ll be rid of the Tories!!! Isn’t your slow and agonizing death as a non-millionaire - a price worth paying for seeing Boris bloody Johnson kicked out of office??”

If you can be convinced to hate someone who actually has had no effect on you as yet - then woe betide you when every other kind of harm already in the pipeline - hits home first.

Once the Tories get destroyed in Britain - that’s the end of ALL politics of anything Right of Karl Marx in this country.

We’ll have endless coalitions of Left, Center Left, Left of Center, and “Moderate” parties of whom “Liberal” will then become the “New Right Wing” of by comparison to the others.
If I’m correct about this - then Corbyn will be thrown under the bus almost at the same time as Boris Johnson. IF the politics of Malignant Centerism ever get a foothold back again in the country that thought they booted out in the 2015 general election!..

Let’s hope the Nu-Libdems only split the votes of Remainers rather than the votes of current Left or Right-hating people then.

I can see Labour Leave voters switching to Farage to get rid of Boris - rather than switching to Swinson, and likely wasting their (tactical) vote…