Best sleeper

I never experienced the offerings from Daf but I know some that thought they were a good thing, all that glass looked cold and not very inviting, but I never realized it was double glazed. Like wise the Big Transcon looked like it would suffer from the same circumstance, as did many trucks from that era. If I remember right Marathon was the same, as were Volvo F88 F86, Merc, MAN and Fiat, all suffering form the gold fish bowl look, Again probably down to the fact that the trucks were being designed by people that had little knowledge or interest in trucks, other then being a stepping stone from them to get into car design.
I realize that when sleeper cabs first came out there would have to be many compromises between what could be done with out causing to many structural changes, added weight, as well as what size could be obtained with out to much physical and or optical impact. However I think a lot of the earlier problems could have been solved if at the design point if there had been some kind of input from drivers, and not just a bunch of designer that had some quirky ideas.
First problem would have been comfort, and practicality, I’m not talking about excessive luxury, with expensive fabrics, but basic design and requirements were sometimes overlooked by people that had never experienced what it was like to actually drive a truck let alone spend long periods of time in one. Some designer took that to the extreme where it seemed that every part was as cheap and minimal as possible then reduce it by half again. Thin bunks made from nothing more than ply and foam didn’t do much for a good nights sleep as did the lack of insulation, and many drivers on various threads have commented that half a board over the engine hump was a better option than a factory sleeper of the same time.
How many trucks were actually double manned? I don’t have any figures for that, but when I was driving around I very rarely saw any trucks that were, however many trucks had 2 bunks crammed in where one bunk with a bit of thought out clever space would have been a far better option.
There were rare occasions where wife’s, girlfriends, boyfriends, and or kids went along for the ride, but for most trucks most of the time it was one driver on his own in the cab.
I would assume that if you asked 100 drivers what they wanted then you would get 100 different answers but there would surly be some kind of common ground, like good curtains that actually had some insulation value and kept the light out during the day would actually be a good thing. If you were paying big money for a truck then surely a bit of extra money at base for things like that would go a long way for the reputation of the manufacturer. Unfortunately it’s small things like that that can make the difference between people thinking you have a good product and thinking your a tight a##@# cheap skate.
Two of the better test that came along in later years were the trousers on test, IE can you stand up in the passenger foot well and get dressed. and can you sit up in bed with out hitting you head on the roof lining. Both these thing might seem trivial to designers and bosses but when you spend more than half your life living in an 8 foot cube tin box it becomes very important.
I also remember one magazine testing for insulation where the night heater and switched of and the temperature was monitored through out the night, which I though was a great test. It turned out that between a Volvo, Scania, Daf, and Magnum the Magnum was worse by a very long way.
Interior lighting in most sleeper cabs was woefully inadequate and poorly placed, Yes it comes down to a compromise between various factors, but what’s a bit of wire and a decent light fitting at the design stage.
Don’t think I’m not great full for what I had because I am and after many years of crashing over the seat of various Fords where at one point I was considering getting a tent then anything was better.

After many years of living in various sizes of tin boxes on 5 continents I have my favorites, but at the end of the day I have to say that even the biggest of American trucks with camper van size sleeper pods get very small after a couple of weeks pounding the black top.

Jeff…

seeing as rikki asked about the best sleepers from the late 80’s to 90’s i would give a shout out for the man roadhaus and iveco eurostar,even in the 70’s the man seemed a good cab and i also liked the magirus deutz that had an odd stepped roof.

Some comments have mentioned insulation and glass. Looking at the designs of cabs from the early 1960s through to the late 1970s, it was fashionable to have as much glass as possible. Even the names of the lorries stressed good visibility- Atkinson Viewline, for example. Since the F10 came out in 1977, it has been normal to blank the panels of the sleeper compartment. We have all heard stories of drivers waking up with their heads frozen onto the windows of earlier vehicles. Modern lorry cabs, as a result, have become dark holes, with minimal natural light coming in and poor over-the-shoulder vision. Now, reading the above posts, I discover that the 2800 had double-glazed windows. Surely, on the grounds of safety and keeping the cab interior light and pleasant, the use of double-glazed side windows should become the norm?

I like this concept: living space = load space.

I don’t suppose it could become law.

[zb]
anorak:
Some comments have mentioned insulation and glass. Looking at the designs of cabs from the early 1960s through to the late 1970s, it was fashionable to have as much glass as possible. Even the names of the lorries stressed good visibility- Atkinson Viewline, for example. Since the F10 came out in 1977, it has been normal to blank the panels of the sleeper compartment. We have all heard stories of drivers waking up with their heads frozen onto the windows of earlier vehicles. Modern lorry cabs, as a result, have become dark holes, with minimal natural light coming in and poor over-the-shoulder vision. Now, reading the above posts, I discover that the 2800 had double-glazed windows. Surely, on the grounds of safety and keeping the cab interior light and pleasant, the use of double-glazed side windows should become the norm?

I think most drivers learn’t to forget all about ‘over the shoulder vision’ from their van driving days.Driving trucks,like vans,is all about relying on the mirrors especially considering that the over the shoulder view from the average large truck cab doesn’t actually provide much relevant information with the exception of slightly more vision in the case of blind side reversing.I preferred the seclusion and insulation provided by windowless sleeper cabs anytime especially when parked up in a brightly lit service area.There’s more than enough natural light provided by the windscreen and door windows.

[zb]
anorak:
Some comments have mentioned insulation and glass. Looking at the designs of cabs from the early 1960s through to the late 1970s, it was fashionable to have as much glass as possible. Even the names of the lorries stressed good visibility- Atkinson Viewline, for example. Since the F10 came out in 1977, it has been normal to blank the panels of the sleeper compartment. We have all heard stories of drivers waking up with their heads frozen onto the windows of earlier vehicles. Modern lorry cabs, as a result, have become dark holes, with minimal natural light coming in and poor over-the-shoulder vision. Now, reading the above posts, I discover that the 2800 had double-glazed windows. Surely, on the grounds of safety and keeping the cab interior light and pleasant, the use of double-glazed side windows should become the norm?

Evening all,

Anorak, DAFs double glazed windows were a joke…like domestic double glazing, the quality varies, and quite frankly, if you wish to insulate the sleeping compartment…then omit the glass! I refer to my original post…the dillema that the designers faced…insulation, or rear ward vision…compromise…or no compromise!!

Chris has posted a picture of a typical US “Hot Shot” outfit…where living can equal loadspace…because the rate for the job allows it!! But that does not apply to “normal” hire and reward transport…(where the driver…“us”…is only another “cost”).

From the 90s, up untill the mid 2000s I imported and sold all sorts of US iron, (never really grew up)! Including chassis fitted with Double Eagle, as well as the more exotic “Live Lab” living sleepers, as well as the 100in, to 240 in "factory " offerings, including the various takes on the "Aero Dyne " theme. Quite frankly, in terms of space utilisation/volume available, they were a joke! The main result seemed to be a large bed/bunk, a few cupboards, a limited walk around space, loads of utterly tasteless trim…(Ox Blood Naugahyde, springs to mind, (like being confined to a ringside seat in a slaughterhouse)!!!

Many of these cabs we “reworked”, both to the advantage of our customers…and really because from my background as a driver…I wanted to see what really could be done within the confines of the spacial envelope, and weight constraint. Now when I obtain the fortunate position of being able to post photographic evidence to support my text, I will be able to corroborate the following statements…but untill then you will have to accept/or not, what I say!

My basic parameter for a “living cab”, included…
Space to walk around/dress.Wash/shower/use toilet. With attendant storage facilities for grey/fresh water.
Facility to store/ Prepare/cook food.Facility to eat, away from the driving station.
Sleep…in an enviroment similar to that enjoyed away from the vehicle. Warm/cool dependant on outside ambiant temperature.
Supply of “natural” daylight, and privacy from outside eyes.

Did we achieve this…yes…how?

Utilising the space envelope of a US Kenworth Aerodyne 110/120in cab envelope.
How many did we convert…30…20 sold in France…6 in Italy…4 in Germany.
Then of course we did our “specials”…(.as an example see my T600 sold to Connail Mc Ginn, (RIP), on the UK Kenworth thread). There were 12 of them built on various chassis.

The question…why should an artisan, engaged in a job that may necesitate him arriving at the end of his days work, in an area where no easily available rest/sustinance is available,…be disadvantaged over his fellow worker i n an office or factory where he can go home for his rest■■?

Answer…of course he should not…but who will argue his case…no one ,…the employer, no it costs more…the legislator, …do any of these people understand our industry…or even worse “care”!!!

The answer, modify legislation…(remember in my days in France if you had a Telma brake fitted, then you could exceed the GVW by the amount of the Telma`s weight)…why did the UK never ever follow such a logical route in its legislation■■?

So to obtain the requsite weight allowance to provide adequate, “living”…in all its forms…then build in that over allowance…both in weight… AND…overall length of the combination…and only then will the “sleeper cab” really be a true sleeper/living cab…and just how many bennifts will flow from that…I would venture quite a LOT!!!

But there again I`m getting on in years, but really the sleeper of 2013 is not that far removed from that of the 70s…and it B…y well should be!!!
Cheerio for now.

This shot may,or may not :neutral_face: ,cause a tear or two to drip into “Saviems” Lambrussco this evening :frowning: IMO the Magnum was the finest sleeper cab produced to date when I took this photo in '94 at our site in Kendal,they were both coupled to Grahams of Gildersome 4 mtr curtainsiders.Bewick.

One of the first things I did to my F7 was replace the rear and rear/side windows with insulated panels, the rest of the interior was then done with 2 inch foam covered with green / gold crushed velvet GROOVY!!! Coffin or mobile brothel, I didn’t care it held good heat in the winter and was fairly well insulated against heat in summer.
My mate Dave Miller had a Scania with an extended cab and that had a fully working porcelain toilet under the bed with red roses and gold leaf painted round the bowl. I don’t know if he ever used it. Last time I was it Roy Peckham was driving to and from Italy, I think it ended up being a recovery vehicle. Dug Thompson did the interior for Dave.
Graham Cordener form Peterhead had another Scania with an extended cab it had a shower in it, eventually the floor rotted out of it and it was though it was the condensation from the shower that caused it. It certainly wasn’t caused by it sitting around, cause I don’t think it ever stopped.
Dave Fairweather form CDC eventually bought and restored it.

Jeff…

Installing a bog in the cab seems like a step too far to me. Who would want to spend the day driving a toilet? Presumably, the waste is stored in a tank under the cab, until a suitable location can be found… Yeuch! The first Berliet Le Centaure had the offending item under the passenger seat:


Considering that the same room is used to prepare and eat food, I would hope that the bog was used for emergencies only.

Fergie47:
Going back to the original question, “Best sleeper” then if like me you took a day cab around europe in the late '60’s, belive me, ANY sleeper if you were lucky enough to get one, was the dogs… :unamused: :unamused:

An F88 twin bunk, was pure luxury…

This^^

Except in my case it was the late 70s/ early 80s, I was UK only. Nonetheless, after several years trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to get some shut-eye across the seats of assorted TK’s, TL’s and D-series (even sleeping upstairs in the luton of the TL’s) a DAF 2100 with a proper 2-bunk sleeper was the mutts’ nuts. And I never really got on with those early pods they glued on the top of day-cab wagons.

[zb]
anorak:
Installing a bog in the cab seems like a step too far to me. Who would want to spend the day driving a toilet? Presumably, the waste is stored in a tank under the cab, until a suitable location can be found… Yeuch! The first Berliet Le Centaure had the offending item under the passenger seat:
0
Considering that the same room is used to prepare and eat food, I would hope that the bog was used for emergencies only.

Hey Anorak,
You have right driving with a toilet in the cab would not be a comfortable thing. But a toilet is one of the most missing items sometimes. And sitting between the wide spead is not comfortable too. And nowedays luckely there are more place to find a toilet,by the way next to the trailer is no option anymore today,you know what I mean (to much eyes).

Bye Eric,

[zb]
anorak:
Installing a bog in the cab seems like a step too far to me. Who would want to spend the day driving a toilet? Presumably, the waste is stored in a tank under the cab, until a suitable location can be found… Yeuch! The first Berliet Le Centaure had the offending item under the passenger seat:
0
Considering that the same room is used to prepare and eat food, I would hope that the bog was used for emergencies only.

At last we can agree on something at least in the case of a cab over with it’s integrated sleeper.The convenience might arguably be worth it in the case of a conventional type cab with a large sleeper/living area pod assuming it can be fitted in a seperate room in just the same way as they’re fitted in RV’s. :bulb:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Installing a bog in the cab seems like a step too far to me. Who would want to spend the day driving a toilet? Presumably, the waste is stored in a tank under the cab, until a suitable location can be found… Yeuch! The first Berliet Le Centaure had the offending item under the passenger seat:
0
Considering that the same room is used to prepare and eat food, I would hope that the bog was used for emergencies only.

At last we can agree on something at least in the case of a cab over with it’s integrated sleeper.The convenience might arguably be worth it in the case of a conventional type cab with a large sleeper/living area pod assuming it can be fitted in a seperate room in just the same way as they’re fitted in RV’s. :bulb:

On a standard Eu-type cab, an extra compartment with a shower and bog in it would be ideal, if the legislation would allow an extra metre on the length of the vehicle. The driver would be spared the inconvenience/filth of using roadside washing facilities. You might wonder why socially-aware places with generous vehicle length rules, for example Scandinavia, would not have such a facility as standard on their lorries. The answer is that, in those countries, spacious, clean, well-appointed roadside washrooms are abundant- practically every petrol station in Sweden has a place where you can get washed and changed. Maybe if we still had a commercial vehicle industry in dirty Britain, we would have developed lorries with bogs and showers in them.

Evening Gentlemen, wc`s, and showers in lorries…not impossible…But a challenge to make a satisfactory working job!

The whole exercise started as a bit of an experiment. Back in the late 90s we had sold our business, and as part of the deal accepted a restrictive clause in the contract of sale to the effect that I would not re-enter the rental industry for a period of years. So I developed another business importing, and exporting various pieces of equipment that I thought would earn a shilling or two, utilising old contacts that I had made working overseas, and modifying/altering vehicles to suit certain markets.

I always thought that the Lamberet designed and manufactured Le Centaure Berliet could have been better designed for practicality, (although as a show piece she was spectacular). Outside shower… Porta potty, under the seat…well I ask you…truly the designs of someone who knows little of the practicalities of day to day life on the road! It was a theme that was debated with some passion over many a lunch or dinner with my colleagues from Venissieux.

Having gone through the learning curve of importing the cheap flat top “coffin” sleeepers, Road “Commodes” , unlovely and undriveable 362 Pete`s and aged Mack 786s, I eventually standardised my “investment” in KW Aerodyne cabovers. One spring morning I was contemplating a newly arrived example parked in the barn,( looking as tired as any million mile truck should do), and the thought crossed my mind that with the space behind the seats and the front of the bunk, a small, but workable wc compartment could be installed

When I had been based in the US, a small number of Midliner Macks had been adapted as RVs. Though the interiors were not to European tastes, the standard of appointment was far superior. Telephone calls to the US manufacturer Monagram saw me ordering a "totally integrated “john”, a small porcelain wc, sitting on top of a divided grey and fresh water tank. This was built into a compartment with a UK sourced plastic folding basin, trimmed in grey carpet, and I have to say looked and worked rather well in the refurbished truck!

She sold well, and quickly via my friends the Wauthiers, to an owner driver near Le Havre. Gradually we refined the design, and sourced other products, but again utilising the space envelope afforded by the Aerodyne cab structure. Some of which were imported having been “stretched” from the standard specification originally in the US, giving us more scope to develop the design. Likewise we created some by refitting long sleeper boxes on conventional chassis, but these were in low volume, but really very spectacular when finished…and expensive.

At the same time we had developed a nice line in converting Dodge 50 series into mini US styled outfits by fitting Weldon 30in sleeper boxes behind the cab of tipper wheelbases, taking out the rear window for access, twin vertical chrome exhausts, (surprising how meaty a .4 Perkins can sound), little 5th wheel, compressor for the trailer…(and there was the ultimate weakness for these little 7.5 gtw outfits, the trailer. Mainly built by caravan manufacturer Lynton, but some by others, the construction, and in particular braking was a nightmare to keep on top of). But with a good US type paint job, a very viable little lorry was created.

The concept of the “living cab” we proved could work. But we aimed at a particular low volume market, who could pay for the work. We used one particular type of vehicle as a base chassis, but again time was running out legislation wise. All the chassis we utilised were pre type approval cut off, so the age profile became a considerable factor. I did gain a “pettite serie” dispensation for a certain specification, but having spent over one year in gaining this, I took the decision that it was not commercially viable, (and my efforts were being employed more in the direction of agriculture, than vehicles).

No we never tried to convert/design any European vehicle. Yes it could have been done, but would have been more difficult, both in terms of administration, and manufacture. And frankly the space envelope provided by the standard shells was very restrictive. Plus main stream importers certainly did not want any “outside” contractor messing with their design, that was made very plain!

It was a phase of my life I enjoyed very much, had an idea, tried it, it worked, earned a shilling, then moved on to other pastures. Really it was my Swan song with lorries, but I was blooming proud of those creations…and at least one is still running around near Trieste!!!

Cheerio for now.

Dug Thompson who was an old friend of mine was one of the top interior designers of vehicles at the time he had won just about every top award on the custom car and van scene not only in the UK but Europe and the US as well. He often consulted on concept vehicles for British and European manufacturers in the 70’s to 90’s, not only was he a top bloke, with some fantastic ideas but he had the skill to carry out to perfection anything that he had going on in his head.

Dave Millers trucks was done purely as a show truck, the price was ridiculously low as Dug who was a big truck fan wanted to break into the truck interior market, and as such Dave handed over the the Scania shell with a rough idea and the rest was up to Dug.
At that time Dug was a big fan of Scammell show mans trucks and gypsy caravans. I don’t know who’s idea it was to fit a toilet, but anyone that ever did rural deliveries any where in Britain at the time would tell you that availability for those kinds of facilities were few and far between, so with out applying to much thought, a bog in the cab would seem like a good thing. I believe there was some kind of gray water tank fitted but mainly the idea was to do an outrageous promotional idea, and it worked well.
The toilet was fitted under the bunk, and for all those of you that have ever lived in a truck will tell you, when you have all your gear in there getting anything out from under the bunk is a pain in the backside, so I wouldn’t like to thing about the logistics of moving everything about pulling the curtains, and having a squat would be like if you were cough short.

Saviem I under stand where you were coming from with the toilet, shower thing in the big US pods, but what was the situation for gray water pump out. If you had a caravan or were in the states then there are facilities for doing that kind of thing. In Europe I can’t remember seeing anything like that was it just over the side of a lay by when no one was looking, or drop the trailer and try to get access to caravan park?

Jeff…

Hi Jelliott, discreet hose, (large diameter), and a fairly large holding tank…fresh, and grey. The idea was that you took the lot back to base, parked over a manhole, and…wooosh!..Well that was the theory!!

I remember the Miller Scania, but never actually saw it in the flesh. Our interiors were trimmed to a comfortable “working” spec, rather than a show finish.

Anorak has the key point, legislation that lays down strict parameters on overall measurement of a vehicle can be counter productive to the well being of the driver. As an example, the excellent Telma Retarder electro magnetic brake was allowed in France to be fitted to a vehicle, but the maximum weight of the vehicle was increased by the nett weight of the retarder. How many lives that saved, let alone serious accidents can not be quantified, but it is an example of positive Governmental thinking. As is the US thinking on overall/trailer combination length. But dear old GB, never ever anything positive towards road transport, or the people working in the industry!

But for once dear old Carryfast has a point. Unless a vehicle was supplied with a wc, shower fitted from the factory…how many operators in the UK would specify such a conversion…not many I would warrant…( perhaps the odd owner driver)?..but for most…too heavy, eats into the payload…he, (the driver), gets paid to work, why should I spend on him! and a thousand other reasons…

Interesting debate labour relations, and what makes a good boss, or employee…perhaps for another thread?

Cheerio for now.

Who would like to spend their day driving a toilet ■■?
I did some agency work, and it would seem more than you would think!!! Half a dozen partially drank cartons of week old milk down the back of the seat, collected the locked truck at 3 PM on a warm summer afternoon…

Pipe smokers truck that used the gear stick and park brake to knock his old backy out on, and the ■■■■■■■■■ and burnt V shape on the drivers seat. TM suggested I get one of those smelly Christmas tree things to hang of the rear view mirror ■■?

Volvo F 10 that had the bunk replace with a an extra fuel tank, hose coiled in the passenger foot well.

I refused to drive all three of the above.

The thing about trucks in most part of the world is that in the eyes of most bosses they are for hauling goods, and the requirements of the driver usually comes second. Luckily now a days most bosses have come to realize that good drivers are a fairly good commodity to have so a bit of a compromise is to give them in the forum of a reasonable truck to drive with a few creature comforts, like a bit of extra space for the driver as oppose to everything for boss and profit, and squeeze the driver in where it can. At least we got rid of most of the wardrobes (Eurotrotters )
The reason the lengths are restricted in more to do with the infrastructure in the local area. In certain parts of Australia we run triple trains and various things like B.A.B. combinations. Most of them are hauled by US type trucks and even given the length regulation they still have to comply and if you go over there are big fines. So most have a modest sleeper/ dog box usually about 60 80 inches, usually a bed and a few cupboards, fridge and tele, and rest of the space is for productive hauling area. Just to make it even more fun there are some very confusing bogie spread and axle weights to comply with, but that’s a different topic.
The trains can only run on certain areas, as can B doubles, we have massive lists off roads and parts of roads that we can and can’t run on, but it’s so confusing that it usually relies on " I saw my mate ( or my mate said it was OK ) to run through here officer… SMILE " If your from the other side of the continent and it your first time being caught it usually works., but it comes down to truck size/ infrastructure and how much local opposition there is.
I would love to drive a triple road train through Britain, I even have an appropriate license but I know as soon as it was of the major routes it wouldn’t fit.
It was some times very hard to even get 13.7 tilt and tag unit in and out of collection and drops in the UK, not just the inner city but also some older quaint type villages that I had to pass through to get to some places. Allowing a big US type truck with a 150 inch sleeper box to run about would just be asking for trouble.
It would be great for every one to have a truck with all the creature comforts that every driver deserves, but I don’t think road haulage would be very profitable if all the trucks were full on mobile bachelor pads wit on a few feet off load space on the back

As for doing a thread on what makes a good boss or employee, I thing your going to open a can of worms there Saviem.

Jeff…

Good day Gentlemen,

Some time I have not been on here, and I have not scouted the full five pages of this thread so the below might have been mentioned earlier, my apologies in advance should this be the case.

There are many valid ways to define the best sleeper, one straightforward method would be to simply identify the roomiest-ever sleeper cab built. On the European scene, Scania’s eXc Longline would be a good runner in this contest. I have only ever seen one and that was on a German Autobahn in 2004 and in oncoming traffic. So I have never been lucky enough to be inside one, let alone drive or stay in one.
If I understand correctly, only a very limited number have been built - partly due to a very hefty premium over the “regular” (already quite pricey) models, and probably also due to their sheer size.

I took the below pictures from the web, they speak for themselves.
[I hope I am not infringing on anyone’s copyright - if so please shout].

And the most amazing (optional) feature - a real shower:

Only for those not restricted in train length…

What a machine. Probably quite impractical especially in its torpedo long-nose form, but it is nice to see the result when a team of designers is given carte blanche meaning no budgetary or dimensional constraints whatsoever… Hats off to Scania for having had the guts!

Cheers
David

Well my first experience of sleeping in the old motor, Was when I was waiting for a return load in London I used to drape the drip sheet from the headboard & make a tent, & use the main sheets as a matress, Curled up in my sleeping bag , much better than sleeping on the bonnet of a Mk 5 AEC I can tell you, No doubt there is probabley a lot of old drivers that did the same when all the digs were fully booked, Happy days Eh, Regards Larry.

Talking about a bog in the cab, What a load of crap, Who wants to kip next door to the carzy. There must be no rules & regs at all, I mean if one wants to alter ones house, Or build a bit on just look at the crap rules & regs that we a faced with, What a load of ■■■■■ IMO, Regards Larry.