Great to see different opinions on this topic, maybe agree to disagree is the best path to go down. I’m absolutely certain that stating the obvious won’t satisfy many but leave was voted by the majority.
It’s done the vote was cast the majority won, that majority by the way could have been 1 or 1m it’s still a majority.
While I agree it was a simple stay or leave vote and the remaining mps within the Tory party have clung on to the hope we do remain, and in doing so have prolonged and complicated the process along with the opposition rejecting deals, the end result is that to save the U.K. political system democracy must be upheld, otherwise there’s no point in political party’s and we may as well live under Despotism rule.
If you able to could you post a list of countries who allow opposition party members elect the new leader of their party.
Do you think a General Election would save it ? No it wouldn’t, it would show the world that British Politics are a joke.
Wether you wish to continue this debate is entirely up to you, it’s a free world and it’s your right, but as for me I’m done with it.
robbo99.:
Great to see different opinions on this topic, maybe agree to disagree is the best path to go down. I’m absolutely certain that stating the obvious won’t satisfy many but leave was voted by the majority.
When weve sorted out Brexit, well sort out Palestine/Israel in about five minutes. Then another ten minutes for Global Climate Change.
Deciding if milk should go in first, or last, for a perfect cuppa, may take longer…
A majority of 1.6 million is a dam sight bigger than the majority of 1 that dictated parliament be in charge of Brexit, and not the government. And that is just as fair to the electorate as leave beating remain, or the Tories electing a new leader with just their own membership.
You have two ways of changing this country, become an mp, or vote for an mp when eligible. Nobody had an issue when Brown was coronated in 07, that’s how the system works, always has done.
Remain mps used underhanded but legal tactics to try and scupper Brexit, if Johnson does the same by suspending parliament to push through a result the majority voted for, he gets my backing.
OVLOV JAY:
A majority of 1.6 million is a dam sight bigger than the majority of 1 that dictated parliament be in charge of Brexit, and not the government. And that is just as fair to the electorate as leave beating remain, or the Tories electing a new leader with just their own membership.You have two ways of changing this country, become an mp, or vote for an mp when eligible. Nobody had an issue when Brown was coronated in 07, that’s how the system works, always has done.
Remain mps used underhanded but legal tactics to try and scupper Brexit, if Johnson does the same by suspending parliament to push through a result the majority voted for, he gets my backing.
conservativehome.blogs.com/colu … y-m-3.html
“So whenever Gordon Brown chooses to call a general election, we will be ready for him. He has no democratic mandate. He has a reputation tainted by his failures after a decade in office. And he has no new ideas. An early election? Bring it on”
Yes, the system works that way. Doesnt mean its right does it? Look at May criticising the unelected Brown above.
Are you really OK with “underhanded but legal tactics” being used?
Each to their own, but I find that really depressing.
Juddian:
Dunno why everyone’s so enchanted, or wary, of Johnson.
Till 5 minutes ago he was a died in the wool EU cheerleader, wants amnesty for illegal immigrants, this winded candle is no more likely to deliver a meaningful Brexit than any other Tory contesting this present event.I hope in some ways they do ruin Brexit, that’ll put the final nails into the Tory coffin and we can start to sort out our political system, which is as said many times here, a complete proven farce now.
Even if we do leave, Italy is likely to default and the euro crashes, it may happen so quickly we will still be in and liable for picking up the EU bankruptcy costs.The irony of all this is that Labour should be wiping the floor with the Tories now, if Corbyn had grown a pair and stayed true to his anti EU beliefs and championed Brexit, he could have moved Labour to its old stomping ground of the party of the British working class and all that entails, bringing in huge swathes of the working classes who have been deserted by Labour and who have learned the hard way over the last decades what the Tory party thinks of them too, there would have been no Brexit Party because Corbyn would have sewn the Brexit movement up when it became apparent (two days after the May’s appointment) that the Tories had no intention of honouring the leave vote.
Unfortunately, the Labour party is lacking in genuine working class supporting MP’s, when Dennis Skinner retires will they have a single one left, and the Tories have but a handful of genuine conservative MP’s, none of which are standing for election as leader.
Thank the good lord Farage has chucked his BP spanner in the works, you’ve got to hand it to the bugger he has impeccable timing.
Interesting developments at Peterborough too, some bod has been boasting (now deleted) on a closed faceache group that he burned a thousand BP ballots, old bill investigating…‘nothing to see here move along now’ should be the official verdict about 30 seconds before they start.
Ill ask him when I see him in an RDC after hes finished his Balcombe St story! 
Boris worries me for one:
youtube.com/watch?v=NLQ3Gbiopc4
that is an earlier opinion if his. OK, we can all change.
theguardian.com/politics/vi … aign-video
bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46926119
that is him lying, January this year, about what he said in 2016.
And here is the Full Fact take on it all. (Written before court case was dismissed, but all links are valid)
fullfact.org/blog/2019/may/pros … s-johnson/
His habit started early:
Sacked from The Times for fabrication. 1980s Also "Chris Patten later stated that, at that time, [Daily Telegraph] Johnson was "one of the greatest exponents of fake journalism"" .....Brexit..... Not a good record as Foreign Secretary as his staff said they had to clear up after him. For normally reticent professional diplomats to pass comment says much. Same as Sir David Norgroves comments.
Strange and worrying that some see him as suitable to take the top job.
I’m not happy with underhanded tactics, legal or otherwise, but the remain mps in parliament have been doing this for 3 years now, so if Boris does the same to deliver a democratic mandate from the public (you know, us, who they are supposed to serve), then I’ll take that
Juddian:
Dunno why everyone’s so enchanted, or wary, of Johnson.
Till 5 minutes ago he was a died in the wool EU cheerleader, wants amnesty for illegal immigrants, this winded candle is no more likely to deliver a meaningful Brexit than any other Tory contesting this present event.
^ This.
Not surprisingly being an ideologically Federalist Party.You know the same party that Farage was happy to join and be a member of.The fact is the country is now fixed on an inescapable route to a war of Federal aggression v Secession sooner or later.With the battle lines and the irreconcilable division,between those who view the EU as ‘their’ country v those who don’t,already having been drawn.Just as all those having gone before numerous times in history.Which unfortunately future generations of Brit patriots will probably have to pay for with their lives.What is certain is that this argument won’t and could never be settled by any invalid democratic vote or discussion.IE the issue of which country anyone has allegiance to is not up for discussion and make no mistake that’s what this is all about.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Why “damage the vote”? Do you mean only one type of candidate is suitable? Should only one sort of the already small group of possible voters (Tory members) get a vote?Strange how we hear no complaints by remainers regarding Heath,Thatcher and Major etc being imposed on the country under exactly the same system.Like the referendum vote it’s obviously only ok if it’s ( perceived as being ) in the EU’s favour.
OK. Mid-term changes of PM, (apart from death maybe?), are wrong and unfair.
Heath, Thatcher, Major, and Blair,Brown. All wrong not to trigger a GE.
Why does the PM being appointed,not specifically elected by the electorate,only matter in the case of ‘mid term’ not in every case ?.
While it’s bleedin obvious that every vote on anything at this point is seen as a vote for or against continuing EU membership depending on the perceived leanings of the candidates in that regard.While it’s equally clear that Juncker,Tusk etc etc ain’t voted for at all in any UK election.
While it seems strange why you’d wish to just make a big thing about your chosen pro EU puppets not getting the job as PM .
As opposed to just letting us get on with extricating the country from the EU behemoth and then sorting out the issues and flaws in our domestic democracy after.Such as removing the powers of the PM and locally unelected ministers making local policy and ending the Party ( bloc vote ) whip system.Not your all too convenient bs of oh look the UK system is broke so let’s fix it by making it even worse in handing over the country to an unelected foreign power.
Franglais:
youtube.com/watch?v=NLQ3Gbiopc4
that is an earlier opinion if his. OK, we can all change.theguardian.com/politics/vi … aign-video
bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46926119
that is him lying, January this year, about what he said in 2016.And here is the Full Fact take on it all. (Written before court case was dismissed, but all links are valid)
fullfact.org/blog/2019/may/pros … s-johnson/His habit started early:
Sacked from The Times for fabrication. 1980s Also "Chris Patten later stated that, at that time, [Daily Telegraph] Johnson was "one of the greatest exponents of fake journalism"" .....Brexit..... Not a good record as Foreign Secretary as his staff said they had to clear up after him. For normally reticent professional diplomats to pass comment says much. Same as Sir David Norgroves comments.Strange and worrying that some see him as suitable to take the top job.
Why would just another Tory Federalist liar and plant ‘worry’ you.As opposed to him being on your side and then,just like remainer May,your lot laughably protesting too much.
OVLOV JAY:
I’m not happy with underhanded tactics, legal or otherwise, but the remain mps in parliament have been doing this for 3 years now, so if Boris does the same to deliver a democratic mandate from the public (you know, us, who they are supposed to serve), then I’ll take that
Here’s a clue Boris is a remainer and no one can be sure about Farage other than the fact that he’s trashed Batten also having told the electorate to trust May.Not to mention his idea that it’s ok to vote a de Facto nation sate out of existence while pretending to be a Nationalist.
Grumpy Dad:
[The in house voting at this stage doesn’t really stand for anything, last time this happened and was seen all the way through was when Cameron won the leadership, the first 2 stages he wasn’t in the top 3 and Micheal Portillo was looking favourite.
Minor correction but Portillo and Cameron never stood in same leadership election. Portillo wasnt even an MP when Cameron was elected, in fact they’ve never both been in parliament at the same time, he retired from politics in 2005. Can’t for life of me remember who he was up against though
switchlogic:
Grumpy Dad:
[The in house voting at this stage doesn’t really stand for anything, last time this happened and was seen all the way through was when Cameron won the leadership, the first 2 stages he wasn’t in the top 3 and Micheal Portillo was looking favourite.
Minor correction but Portillo and Cameron never stood in same leadership election. Portillo wasnt even an MP when Cameron was elected, in fact they’ve never both been in parliament at the same time, he retired from politics in 2005. Can’t for life of me remember who he was up against though
Cameron was up against David Davis, not Portillo my mistake, it was Micheal Howard who stepped down in 2005.
Portillo would have been the best candidate for leadership of the Tories today.
Davis of course! How could I forget that in a Brexit discussion! Agree re Portillo. I actually think he could have been a great PM
switchlogic:
Davis of course! How could I forget that in a Brexit discussion! Agree re Portillo. I actually think he could have been a great PM
I`m with you and Grumpy Dad to an extent here.
With Portillo he says what he means, and means what he says.
Carryfast:
Why does the PM being appointed,not specifically elected by the electorate,only matter in the case of ‘mid term’ not in every case ?.
Because of what Grumpy Dad explained well with the example of his father.
Franglais:
switchlogic:
Davis of course! How could I forget that in a Brexit discussion! Agree re Portillo. I actually think he could have been a great PMI`m with you and Grumpy Dad to an extent here.
With Portillo he says what he means, and means what he says.
The Tory party has spent the past 30 years throwing away reasonable conservative leaders.
Heseltine, Portillo, Clarke, probably others. Although it’s worth saying that Portillo is considered to have moderated since leaving office, and it is in his latter form that he is better liked.
When the Tory party has won elections, it has spent almost all time subsequently undermining its elected party leader, as with Major, Cameron, and May.
Thatcher was ultimately deposed because she took attacks on the working population right to the wire against all sensible advice from her own party.
It has also elected a series of utter duds and weirdos from its right as leaders, IDS and Howard. Hague was also a second-rate leader. And other weirdos have frequently lurked as candidate leaders, Redwood back in the day, JRM today.
The party also has an increasing reputation for, and tolerance of, dishonesty. Boris is considered to be a liar even by many of his own. Gove is considered to be a slimy backstabber. Many others have been challenged for lying through their teeth. A senior figure like Shapps was even revealed as confidence man who had previously gone by a false name.
It makes you wonder when they will sort themselves out and start electing the actual talent they have.
Rjan:
The Tory party has spent the past 30 years throwing away reasonable conservative leaders.Heseltine, Portillo, Clarke, probably others.
What a surprise.The definition of ‘reasonable’ obviously being Euro Federalist while Hoey is supposedly ‘eccentric’ and ‘controversial’.No doubt just like Benn and Shore.Which leaves the obvious question would you prefer to vote for a Clark led Con administration than a Hoey led Labour one.Either or no ifs or buts ?.
Rjan:
The party also has an increasing reputation for, and tolerance of, dishonesty. Boris is considered to be a liar even by many of his own. Gove is considered to be a slimy backstabber. Many others have been challenged for lying through their teeth. A senior figure like Shapps was even revealed as confidence man who had previously gone by a false name.
Absolutely. As a group they seem to believe that any means are acceptable to gain power. Any lies told are excused, and snake oil salesmen seem admired.
Some dont seem to mind that they have been lied to time and again. Maybe this sector actually would prefer to believe in a lie, rather than admit to themselves they could have been hoodwinked? £350m....Turkey......and now new talks with the EU who will fall on their knees before our new PM, whoever it is.... Once upon a time the Tories had some principles, love or loath them, they had some. Now they so determined to get votes anything/everything is promised. A party will no underlying principles. Maybe they deserve a hollow vessel such as Johnson? Trouble is, well all get him.
As a view from further away look at this on Johnson:
newyorker.com/magazine/2019 … is-johnson
Can’t argue against any of that ^^^^^^^. The sad thing is that we as a nation have such a low regard of politicians of any hue that we simply vote for the lot that we hope/perceive are going to be the least worse for us.