Automation

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

Santa:
Juddian and others say that we should resist automation by small acts of rebellion, like insisting that a real person checks out their groceries or they disable all the fuel/pollution saving measures on their cars.

During the late 18th-century handloom weavers burned mills and pieces of factory machinery and textile workers destroyed industrial equipment. In the early 19th-century, in Nottingham, the Luddite movement began which culminated in a region-wide rebellion that lasted from 1811 to 1816. Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the movement was suppressed with legal and military force.

Those men gave up their lives for a cause they believed in but to no avail.

They weren’t successful in maintaining traditional modes of production, but a general willingness to rebel and break the law certainly produced a series of pro-worker reforms, including the eventual legalisation of workers’ unions (or “combinations” as they were then usually called) and the creation of voting rights for the working class.

62

Whilst the wonderful socialist utopian views being voiced here sound great, you know shared wealth for all, basic income for doing nothing simply because people were replaced, i have a news for you, it isn’t going to be like that, and one of the reasons is because the country is already almost £2trilllion in national debt, not counting the personal debt out there, those owed the money arn’t going to the benevolent act which virtue signalling politicians are wont to do, ie write of foreign debts…easy to do when it isn’t your money (govts have no money, its the taxpayer’s) and you’ll be out of office in a few years anyway, another can kicked down the road.

I have no worries about what happens to the great unwashed, those who believe the Money Trees of Croydon are real, because those they listen to do not have their best interests at heart either, they are telling people what they want to hear to get votes and their own power, it was ever thus.
People want to believe what they are being told even if its complete ■■■■■■■■ if it makes them feel good, so be it.

Me?, what am i going to do?
Well, same as i’d tell anyone who wants to listen and hedge their fortunes towards their positions being as safe as anything can be by doing the type of work that can’t be easily automated, and is especially difficult to dumb down.
Make yourself as difficult to replace as possible, go the extra mile, ie prove by your performance that you can beat the bloody computer in everything to do with your driving, get the best mpg possible, don’t cause wear or damage to the vehicle, make sure the customers look a forward to seeing you if you’re in a customer facing role.
When you stand out from the legion of couldn’t give a monkeys only wannabe a chauffeur, you get the ear of the management, sometimes they’ll listen sometimes they won’t, but you can even as a mere driver have an influence (i and others have proved this times over the years and had changes made to wages allowances vehicle specs etc, always in specialist work), and when there’s several of you standing out from the usual types and reading from a similar hymn sheet, your voices are louder still if they make sense, so you make sure you do make sense and not the now typical moaning wingeing driver who never contributes a single positive remark.

Good managers aint stupid, if it aint broke they aint in a tearing hurry to fix it, help them to help you.

The less work you want to do, ie vegetate behind a steering wheel, just steer the thing from one rdc to another on motorways, then it’s as plain as the nose on your face these are going to be the roles they’ll come for first, it’s no different than when they want to replace drivers normally, simple easy attending the steering wheel work can be done by any bugger that can stand on two legs, they can sack the lot and replace with a coachload of strangers literally in the space of a morning, and nothing will change because you’ve got yourself into a deskilled job and helped deskill it, not even prepared to handle the load or go out of the way to help out, anyone with an ounce of sense can see those jobs will be the first to go.

I keep saying this, and most of you are no doubt fed up hearing it, specialise and make yourself as reliable and competent in your chosen speciality as you can, make that specialist work as complicated as its possible to be, if it requires a bit of graft that maybe you’d rather not do, don’t be a bolshy sod and refuse it, but try and negotiate a sensible payment for the extras, because when some complication skills graft and muck is involved, you can’t be replaced and the typical likely replacements wouldn’t want it anyway because…work involved.

I know people don’t relish pallet work, but in some ways that’s specialist, and something that will be very difficult to automate apart from oversized pallet shifting/sorting systems similar to parcel hubs, but the driver getting mucky heaving pallets around multiple changeable drops isn’t going to be replaced for a long long time.

Think for yourselves, get into something you like even if its a bit hard or mucky work, make sure you are as difficult to replace or automate as possible.

63

Juddian, I understand you are not a fan of progress and you would like to keep everything exactly as you like it. Unfortunately the world has never worked like that and changes have to be made some good and some maybe not so good but thats the way it works.
Now just because you and a few other lorry drivers are stubborn about this will not make one jot of difference. Yes you write a good story and I do sympathise a little but don’t waste your time and energy writing a few paragraphs because it won’t change anything. Automation is happening. End of.

64

Absolute bull shine.
If every job was automated what would be the point of humans. Humans are economic activity, without them there would be totally no reason for efficient manufacturing.

I champion my own Juddian interpretation as I am the bloke everyone calls when the robots breakdown. I learnt all I could about industrial automation when I realized driving trucks wasn’t for me so trust me when I say robots are dumb as ■■■■.

65

Jakethesnake.

Firstly you have no idea of what i am a fan of or not, and i have no wish to enlighten you either way :wink:
hint, if something’s broke fix it, if aint don’t fix it :bulb:

Automation of course will happen to some extent as it always has, where its economically beneficial to someone usually in a fixed manageable situation, and that’s the big difference, our roads are not manageable and cannot hope to cope in any orderly computer controlled sense with the rapidly growing volumes of traffic as the country fills to standing room only, as such it will be long time before the person sitting behind the steering wheel is taken out of the picture altogether, and during the period between now and that happening there is going to be massive social change and upheaval as the very country we live in morphs into somewhere entirely different, nothing is set in stone and all the best plans they might have will have to be altered to accommodate the new norm, this has always been the case.

I am simply advising those younger and more able drivers, who against their better judgement might actually read my pish :smiling_imp: , how they can help make themselves as difficult to get rid of as they can for their expected working lives, if they wish to carry on lorry driving as such…this won’t apply to all because so many out there are not at heart lorry drivers, they are just earning a wage packet same as they did in several previous avenues of employment before gaining lorry licences, so for many losing their vocation would not be the same wrench as to those of us steeped in lorryism :laughing:

I know what’s worked for me for well over 40 years on the road, and still in the better of the jobs, yes i’ve had to retrain as i moved different jobs over the years, but some aspects of how you work, the effort skill care and enthusiasm you put into that work, has long lasting effects on an individuals employment prospects and job stability, if for no other reason that attitude and competence.
If you went back 100 years or more you’d find those who took care and learned would be in better positions, and i’m convinced that 100 years hence the same will apply.

I won’t be giving up because someone with ££vested interests tells me to, neither will i accept the views of those such as yourself who have deluded faith in what our self regarding betters have planned for us proles.

If others want to give up and go silently to the deletion big business has planned for them, be my guest, but don’t for one minute think that the charitable govts of the future are going to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed.
I would have expected a better attitude from you especially Jake, given your varied and successful multiple careers, and to have more encouragement for those who haven’t been indoctrinated that what is planned for them is for their benefit after all.

66

Juddian:
those owed the money arn’t going to the benevolent act which virtue signalling politicians are wont to do, ie write of foreign debts…easy to do when it isn’t your money (govts have no money, its the taxpayer’s)

By the same logic, the creditors have no money either, it’s all the debtors money. The landlord has no money, it’s the tenant’s money.

I keep saying this, and most of you are no doubt fed up hearing it, specialise and make yourself as reliable and competent in your chosen speciality as you can, make that specialist work as complicated as its possible to be,

I agree that the obvious solution is for workers to do whatever the machines cannot.

The problem could be that there simply won’t be sufficient demand for work, on a scale like we currently know it. It doesn’t matter what specialism you choose, when unemployment is high and competition for the basics of life is high, then wages will fall and people will flood into your specialism.

67

Juddian:
Jakethesnake.

Firstly you have no idea of what i am a fan of or not, and i have no wish to enlighten you either way :wink:
hint, if something’s broke fix it, if aint don’t fix it :bulb:

Automation of course will happen to some extent as it always has, where its economically beneficial to someone usually in a fixed manageable situation, and that’s the big difference, our roads are not manageable and cannot hope to cope in any orderly computer controlled sense with the rapidly growing volumes of traffic as the country fills to standing room only, as such it will be long time before the person sitting behind the steering wheel is taken out of the picture altogether, and during the period between now and that happening there is going to be massive social change and upheaval as the very country we live in morphs into somewhere entirely different, nothing is set in stone and all the best plans they might have will have to be altered to accommodate the new norm, this has always been the case.

I am simply advising those younger and more able drivers, who against their better judgement might actually read my pish :smiling_imp: , how they can help make themselves as difficult to get rid of as they can for their expected working lives, if they wish to carry on lorry driving as such…this won’t apply to all because so many out there are not at heart lorry drivers, they are just earning a wage packet same as they did in several previous avenues of employment before gaining lorry licences, so for many losing their vocation would not be the same wrench as to those of us steeped in lorryism :laughing:

I know what’s worked for me for well over 40 years on the road, and still in the better of the jobs, yes i’ve had to retrain as i moved different jobs over the years, but some aspects of how you work, the effort skill care and enthusiasm you put into that work, has long lasting effects on an individuals employment prospects and job stability, if for no other reason that attitude and competence.
If you went back 100 years or more you’d find those who took care and learned would be in better positions, and i’m convinced that 100 years hence the same will apply.

I won’t be giving up because someone with ££vested interests tells me to, neither will i accept the views of those such as yourself who have deluded faith in what our self regarding betters have planned for us proles.

If others want to give up and go silently to the deletion big business has planned for them, be my guest, but don’t for one minute think that the charitable govts of the future are going to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed.
I would have expected a better attitude from you especially Jake, given your varied and successful multiple careers, and to have more encouragement for those who haven’t been indoctrinated that what is planned for them is for their benefit after all.

Yeah ok. You are old and stubborn a bit like me. I agree with your views however nothing you or I do will change what is happening. It’s not all as bad as you make out and there will be plenty benefits.
For sure lorry driving will change drastically over the next couple of decades but out of the changes there will become other types of employment.
Transport and the roads are a complete shambles at present with constant delays and far too many deaths caused by human error. That will all improve in coming years.

PS. I don’t and never have had multiple careers. Who gave you that false info?
I have driven lorries over many years and have been involved in various forms of transport training just to clarify. I am now happily retired and mostly living outside the UK. BLISS.

68

Rjan:

Juddian:

I agree that the obvious solution is for workers to do whatever the machines cannot.

The problem could be that there simply won’t be sufficient demand for work, on a scale like we currently know it. It doesn’t matter what specialism you choose, when unemployment is high and competition for the basics of life is high, then wages will fall and people will flood into your specialism.

Fair comments, however i’ve been in specialist work now a long time, and i’ve seen them come and go, the damage people who don’t take an interest or pride can cause is staggering, i’ve seen all sorts recruited cheap when some new pointy shoe points out the drivers are earning more than middle managers, so they recruit from outside pools in an effort to prove their ‘i can get drivers ten a penny statements’ true, it invariably ends up in tears costing them hundreds of times more than leaving it to the natural recruitment and wastage in such an industries where the equipment and the load run into serious money and are often more fragile, or rather if they are damaged the costs are horrendous.

There will always be a levelling factor, as above, when too many people are being kept by the state, the state, despite the optimistic sentiments from some posters, will not be able to afford to keep vast swathes of people in relative luxury, especially when even more free stuff will attract millions more who want that free stuff.
If people haven’t got decent jobs paying decent money and confident enough to spend some of that, the capitalist system…which is the only one which works…falls apart, no one is going to buying robots for £billions to make stuff for people to ‘buy’ with free money, it simply doesn’t compute.

On an individual basis, i suggest making yourself as employable and irreplaceable as possible in this world is a good way to make sure the coming changes affect you last and least.

69

There’s an awful lot all ■■■■■■■ together here.
Artificial Intelligence, Global Climate Change, over exploitation of the planet’s natural resources, over population, unequal distribution of wealth.
Technology doesn’t always destroy jobs but does disrupt them. The skilled, difficult jobs will be targeted to do away with expensive skilled employees. Skilled weavers were replaced by machine minders. Lithographic printers with machine minders again. And just because technology has created as many jobs as it has destroyed, in the past, is not a sound guide to the future.
Increasing consumption by an increasing population is simply not sustainable, but our current system is a Ponzi scheme. Consumer based capitalism needs to expand to survive. Our present system demands more people, and more stuff. Soon it will run out of raw materials if it continues.
A bit of tinkering around the edges will do nothing. A few bob on fossil fuel tax won’t cut it.
The whole system of limited companies extracting profits for shareholders will need to change. We haven’t had limited companies since the Ark, they are not everything holy.
.
Happen it won’t be a smooth and easy transition. It’ll be like changing from driving on the left to driving on the right. No way to do it gradually and there will be bumps.

70

A very level headed view Franglais if I may say so.

71

jakethesnake:
A very level headed view Franglais if I may say so.

I do have a certain cranial similarity with Fred Gwynne.

72

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

73

jakethesnake:
[emoji38] [emoji38] [emoji38]

Thank you!

74

Consider the terminology Artificial Intelligence and how it is applied to the concept of automated, or self-driving vehicles. For once I believe that the concept has been named correctly. It is artificial, and totally different from human intelligence, and I don’t mean the level of IQ any individual has. But relate it to the reasoning, rationality, (in varying degrees), logical thought process, and emotional reaction that a human being will react with to any situation, - including driving. And as drivers perhaps the most important skill of anticipation honed by experience, be it measured by miles covered or years doing the job as a full time or professional driver. Hopefully by now you will realise where this is going and be thinking yes I as a driver have skills that a self-driving vehicle will never match.

Let me give you an example, typical of a similar situation that you might experience in your driving shift two or three times daily. Late afternoon yesterday I was driving my car on the M6 northbound returning from a meeting. Traffic was busy and flowing well. I was in lane 3 of 3 at National speed limit.Some distance ahead in lane 2 (probably 500 yards) yellow beacon lights are flashing but the source of the beacons is obviously moving forward. So, in milliseconds my human intelligence deduces that it’s an ■■■■■■ van for a wide load, and as I get nearer the load is straddling lanes 1 and 2. I ANTICIPATE and deduce, and see, that any trucks ahead of me in lane 2 will need to encroach into my lane. To allow them to do so i ease off the accelerator, anticipating that the car in front of me might not be as aware of the lane change the truck needs to make as I am. I’m also aware by looking in my rear mirror that the driver of the Land Rover Discovery behind me is very interested in my rear bumper and that the driver of said vehicle is totally unaware of what is happening. No, the car ahead doesn’t let the truck cross into lane 3, so the truck’s brake lights show, I’ve created the gap for the truck to use, which he does, and the Discovery on my rear bumper bar has finally cottoned on and also dropped back to allow another truck to come out of lane 2. Could self-driving vehicles have anticipated this situation? And how to deal with it? No I don’t believe they could or ever will.

Another example. Think of a roundabout, as you approach it you could be anticipating vehicles coming onto that roundabout from anything up to 3 roads that are in your field of vision. So it’s ANTICIPATION again, which is a trait of human intelligence and not Artificial Intelligence.

These demonstration videos are made in ideal, sanitised, and regimented traffic conditions, and bear no relation to daily traffic conditions on congested UK roads. Driverless vehicles will undoubtedly feature one day but it won’t be anytime soon.

75

gingerfold:
Consider the terminology Artificial Intelligence and how it is applied to the concept of automated, or self-driving vehicles. For once I believe that the concept has been named correctly. It is artificial, and totally different from human intelligence, and I don’t mean the level of IQ any individual has. But relate it to the reasoning, rationality, (in varying degrees), logical thought process, and emotional reaction that a human being will react with to any situation, - including driving. And as drivers perhaps the most important skill of anticipation honed by experience, be it measured by miles covered or years doing the job as a full time or professional driver. Hopefully by now you will realise where this is going and be thinking yes I as a driver have skills that a self-driving vehicle will never match.

Let me give you an example, typical of a similar situation that you might experience in your driving shift two or three times daily. Late afternoon yesterday I was driving my car on the M6 northbound returning from a meeting. Traffic was busy and flowing well. I was in lane 3 of 3 at National speed limit.Some distance ahead in lane 2 (probably 500 yards) yellow beacon lights are flashing but the source of the beacons is obviously moving forward. So, in milliseconds my human intelligence deduces that it’s an ■■■■■■ van for a wide load, and as I get nearer the load is straddling lanes 1 and 2. I ANTICIPATE and deduce, and see, that any trucks ahead of me in lane 2 will need to encroach into my lane. To allow them to do so i ease off the accelerator, anticipating that the car in front of me might not be as aware of the lane change the truck needs to make as I am. I’m also aware by looking in my rear mirror that the driver of the Land Rover Discovery behind me is very interested in my rear bumper and that the driver of said vehicle is totally unaware of what is happening. No, the car ahead doesn’t let the truck cross into lane 3, so the truck’s brake lights show, I’ve created the gap for the truck to use, which he does, and the Discovery on my rear bumper bar has finally cottoned on and also dropped back to allow another truck to come out of lane 2. Could self-driving vehicles have anticipated this situation? And how to deal with it? No I don’t believe they could or ever will.

Another example. Think of a roundabout, as you approach it you could be anticipating vehicles coming onto that roundabout from anything up to 3 roads that are in your field of vision. So it’s ANTICIPATION again, which is a trait of human intelligence and not Artificial Intelligence.

These demonstration videos are made in ideal, sanitised, and regimented traffic conditions, and bear no relation to daily traffic conditions on congested UK roads. Driverless vehicles will undoubtedly feature one day but it won’t be anytime soon.

Sorry gingerfold but I do not think you have done much homework on this subject. I can assure you driverless vehicles will eventually have an almost zero accident rate compared to humans.
Try reading up on how far they have come and how they work and then say humans will do a better job. I bet you will change your mind. :wink:

76

gingerfold:
Could self-driving vehicles have anticipated this situation? And how to deal with it? No I don’t believe they could or ever will.

In theory, with AI’s future ability to communicate with other AI, the slow moving vehicle would have been broadcasting to all the others well in advance the fact it was causing an obstruction ahead, and what that obstruction was. Sensors in the road (powered by the solar panels also in the road, providing power for the country and maybe even the vehicles travelling down it) would be reporting the traffic situation as well, complementing a big variety of sensors on board each vehicle. The vehicles behind could all have worked out who was giving way to who in plenty of time and it could have been a seamless navigation for all around the slow moving vehicle. In theory.

It’s all possible, but I think it’s way further away than most ‘experts’ claim, many, many decades, we might have been wiped out in a nuclear war before it happens.

77

jakethesnake:

gingerfold:
Consider the terminology Artificial Intelligence and how it is applied to the concept of automated, or self-driving vehicles. For once I believe that the concept has been named correctly. It is artificial, and totally different from human intelligence, and I don’t mean the level of IQ any individual has. But relate it to the reasoning, rationality, (in varying degrees), logical thought process, and emotional reaction that a human being will react with to any situation, - including driving. And as drivers perhaps the most important skill of anticipation honed by experience, be it measured by miles covered or years doing the job as a full time or professional driver. Hopefully by now you will realise where this is going and be thinking yes I as a driver have skills that a self-driving vehicle will never match.

Let me give you an example, typical of a similar situation that you might experience in your driving shift two or three times daily. Late afternoon yesterday I was driving my car on the M6 northbound returning from a meeting. Traffic was busy and flowing well. I was in lane 3 of 3 at National speed limit.Some distance ahead in lane 2 (probably 500 yards) yellow beacon lights are flashing but the source of the beacons is obviously moving forward. So, in milliseconds my human intelligence deduces that it’s an ■■■■■■ van for a wide load, and as I get nearer the load is straddling lanes 1 and 2. I ANTICIPATE and deduce, and see, that any trucks ahead of me in lane 2 will need to encroach into my lane. To allow them to do so i ease off the accelerator, anticipating that the car in front of me might not be as aware of the lane change the truck needs to make as I am. I’m also aware by looking in my rear mirror that the driver of the Land Rover Discovery behind me is very interested in my rear bumper and that the driver of said vehicle is totally unaware of what is happening. No, the car ahead doesn’t let the truck cross into lane 3, so the truck’s brake lights show, I’ve created the gap for the truck to use, which he does, and the Discovery on my rear bumper bar has finally cottoned on and also dropped back to allow another truck to come out of lane 2. Could self-driving vehicles have anticipated this situation? And how to deal with it? No I don’t believe they could or ever will.

Another example. Think of a roundabout, as you approach it you could be anticipating vehicles coming onto that roundabout from anything up to 3 roads that are in your field of vision. So it’s ANTICIPATION again, which is a trait of human intelligence and not Artificial Intelligence.

These demonstration videos are made in ideal, sanitised, and regimented traffic conditions, and bear no relation to daily traffic conditions on congested UK roads. Driverless vehicles will undoubtedly feature one day but it won’t be anytime soon.

Sorry gingerfold but I do not think you have done much homework on this subject. I can assure you driverless vehicles will eventually have an almost zero accident rate compared to humans.
Try reading up on how far they have come and how they work and then say humans will do a better job. I bet you will change your mind. :wink:

But isn’t that assuming that every vehicle on the will have the technology necessary? The only way that would be possible if, for example taking an arbitrary future date then every vehicle without the technology is declared obsolete and is replaced by driverless technology. There are 35 million vehicles in the UK, so on 31st December 2035 all these are taken off the roads and replaced with 35 million driverless vehicles on 1st January 2036. The sheer cost of it all makes the project impossible, no matter how advanced the technology is.

78

Not going to happen in mine or any current posters lifetimes. The end.

79

the maoster:
Not going to happen in mine or any current posters lifetimes. The end.

Not in our lifetimes? You may well be right…
Look at who holds the nuclear triggers all around the world! (SJB beat me to it.)[emoji5]
But if you think it won’t happen in the next forty years?
Mixing AI with current vehicles will be harder than going full on auto. Those countries currently behind us technologically will be ripe for investment. They may well leapfrog over us. Silicon Valley doesn’t care who actually makes their gizmos at the moment. (i-phones are made where?) Current thinking is more geared to investors, not the working masses.

80

Juddian:

Rjan:

Juddian:

I agree that the obvious solution is for workers to do whatever the machines cannot.

The problem could be that there simply won’t be sufficient demand for work, on a scale like we currently know it. It doesn’t matter what specialism you choose, when unemployment is high and competition for the basics of life is high, then wages will fall and people will flood into your specialism.

Fair comments, however i’ve been in specialist work now a long time, and i’ve seen them come and go, the damage people who don’t take an interest or pride can cause is staggering, i’ve seen all sorts recruited cheap when some new pointy shoe points out the drivers are earning more than middle managers, so they recruit from outside pools in an effort to prove their ‘i can get drivers ten a penny statements’ true, it invariably ends up in tears costing them hundreds of times more than leaving it to the natural recruitment and wastage in such an industries where the equipment and the load run into serious money and are often more fragile, or rather if they are damaged the costs are horrendous.

There will always be a levelling factor, as above, when too many people are being kept by the state, the state, despite the optimistic sentiments from some posters, will not be able to afford to keep vast swathes of people in relative luxury, especially when even more free stuff will attract millions more who want that free stuff.
If people haven’t got decent jobs paying decent money and confident enough to spend some of that, the capitalist system…which is the only one which works…falls apart, no one is going to buying robots for £billions to make stuff for people to ‘buy’ with free money, it simply doesn’t compute.

On an individual basis, i suggest making yourself as employable and irreplaceable as possible in this world is a good way to make sure the coming changes affect you last and least.

“Free money”?
Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk both seem to think the Universal Basic Income model has some merits. They are hardly impracticable dreamers.