Autoboxes .... why ?????I

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
61

V8Lenny:

ramone:
Well Merc were probably first with auto boxes as we now know them

No, Eaton was first with their semi-automatic, later fully automatic.

Just ordered a new R450 Scania, had to pay 600€ extra for stick and clutchpedal.

Was it the SAMT and did you ever drive 1 , and if so what were they like and while im thinking did anyone on here ever drive a 2 pedal Beaver or V8 Mandator ,how did they work ? I will stick my neck out here but that will probably be the best 600 euros you ever spend , its scandalous that they are now charging more for manuals .
My first day back after a week in Spain and i promised myself i wouldn`t get wound up with the bag of ■■■■ .Well that lasted all of 10 mins , i had to go to one of our yards to fill up because the last driver had left it nearly empty so at 5.40 this morning i was trying to reverse round a yard full of wagons up to the pump and it was business as usual

62

Ramone, be honest you hoped some bugger had written it off last week… :smiling_imp:

This charging extra for manual, they’re taking the P, it’s a bloody mafia racket now with the euro lorry assemblers, we gonna make you an offer you cant refuse, and all the other families are doing the same so where you gonna go?

I’d tell 'em exactly what they can do with their surcharge and hot foot it straight round to the Hino ( i like them anyway, if it aint broke don’t fix it) dealer for a proper box as standard…please don’t tell me Toyota have gone down the same road with satans box in their lorries.

63

Hi Ramone,

I haven’t driven anything more modern than Scanias with synchromesh, so can’t comment on the discussions on this thread.

However, the Sunday before last, I met Richard and Andy Green at Leyland,who used to run timber and later international from Yorkshire, so we naturally discussed Leylands that they had owned.

They ran 4 2-pedal Ergo Beavers and said that they were great to drive and gave good service. Neither brother ventures beyond pen and ink, but I’ll see if I can get any more details about them.

I met one of their drivers in one of those, unloading at the Lowther sawmill, south of Penrith (now AW Jenkinson) in '69 or '70 and he had nothing but praise for it.

John

64

As a driver who experienced a 24 speed two stick Mack box and then had a clunky Allison auto box on a GMC in the mid 70’s and then drove a CF for Gist a couple of years back, I would never want to go back to a manual box.

65

Our company are in the heavyahauling game and mostly around Stockholm. So after 2,5 years in a old FH 610 manual gearbox with 1300000 km on the clock. I just got my hands on my new FH 750 ishift gearbox and what a dream,cant dream of go back to manual again.

Danne

66

Now we’re on the subject of Volvos, do I remember that they offer (now or soon) a two-clutch transmission in a lorry?

67

Hi anorak! Yes they do,dual clutch they call it,they dont fit it to the 750 yet and not on a heavyhaul spec unit. If i remember what the dealer said right the dual clutch was for max 540hp but could b wrong there :open_mouth: . I tested a FH 500 dual clutch and you didnt notice the gear change at al just that the rpm change :smiley:

Danne

68

I keep repeating myself but here we go how do you get the pile of crap to change up when it should i.e in the green band and change down when it should not when it feels like it also when reversing into tight spots no consistency with the throttle just a jerky reaction the volvo i shift is the best on the market probably because it was designed by volvo for volvos

69

ramone:

V8Lenny:

ramone:
Well Merc were probably first with auto boxes as we now know them

No, Eaton was first with their semi-automatic, later fully automatic.

Just ordered a new R450 Scania, had to pay 600€ extra for stick and clutchpedal.

Was it the SAMT and did you ever drive 1 , and if so what were they like and while im thinking did anyone on here ever drive a 2 pedal Beaver or V8 Mandator ,how did they work ? I will stick my neck out here but that will probably be the best 600 euros you ever spend , its scandalous that they are now charging more for manuals .
My first day back after a week in Spain and i promised myself i wouldn`t get wound up with the bag of [zb] .Well that lasted all of 10 mins , i had to go to one of our yards to fill up because the last driver had left it nearly empty so at 5.40 this morning i was trying to reverse round a yard full of wagons up to the pump and it was business as usual

i used to drive a 2 pedal scammell handyman now and again, really fast changing box (5 speed + splitter), changing down fully laden could produce a pronounced bounce, and reversing could be challenging,its the one on the far left of the photo.

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70

ramone:
I keep repeating myself but here we go how do you get the pile of crap to change up when it should i.e in the green band and change down when it should not when it feels like it also when reversing into tight spots no consistency with the throttle just a jerky reaction the volvo i shift is the best on the market probably because it was designed by volvo for volvos

Hi! Well i really dont have a problem at al with either up or down shifts with the ishift but my unit is only two weeks old so give me couple of years of constant running at 80-109 tons total weight. But im really impresed how it perfoms. Alot of bad grawelroad and dirt roads and just power mod and of we go :smiley:

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71

ramone:
I keep repeating myself but here we go how do you get the pile of crap to change up when it should i.e in the green band and change down when it should not when it feels like it also when reversing into tight spots no consistency with the throttle just a jerky reaction the volvo i shift is the best on the market probably because it was designed by volvo for volvos

The only way to get ZF’s auto to change at the right moment to suit the characteristics of the engine is to do it yourself, anything else is pants.
I assume you have PROFI on the gearswitch?, if so it has the option to drive it manually assuming it hasn’t been disabled at the dealership, if it doesn’t have PROFI then its probably auto only but still worth trying to flick manual on and have a go.

Its nearly 3 years since i drove a DAF with this box, but from what i recall the controls were more or less identical to the MAN i’ve got now.

Generally you either have manual or auto, best to select manual via the little column switch before you start off (or once up and running in 12th), if its like mine it’ll probably default to third as start gear whether manual or auto loaded…the MAN usually selects 5th itself as start gear empty unless you’ve approached a hill start and the gear/fuel loading sensors has triggered a lower gear, the same scenario applies if you’re loaded, it might select 2nd instead.
It will also revert to 3rd start gear if you have it manual mode empty, dunno why but there’s no rhyme nor reason to this box and its programming.

If you try and override the auto it doesn’t do as Scanias auto box does and allow you to interfere when necessary yet stay in auto mode (unless you deliberately switch it to manual), the ZF flicks over to manual if you even shift one gear yourself…but it will revert to auto again after about 10/20 seconds which is just about the time you’re changing gear again manually so you’ll get two changes instead and you’ll be issuing as many curses as i have.
So if you try to select manual mode whilst moving in in between gears it will in all likelihood revert to auto after a time, then again it might not depending on which side of the bed the computer from hell got out of bed that morning…there that clear as mud innit.

I suggest you try manual mode for a while loaded, be warned it’s not the most responsive box in the world but if you flick the switch once twice or three times it should change the same amount of gears…we’ve got several identical MAN’s, mine will only allow a maximum of 3 block changes (ie 3rd to 6th), where one of the others allows up to 4, haven’t a clue why.

We run full weights, my loaded regime is start in 3rd if level ground, then 6, then 8 then up each gear…if you check the dash hopefully in manual mode it will show you by little arrows (MAN does this hopefully DAF too) how many gears are available at any given speed, this is especially useful for maximum exhaust braking via manual downshifts.

Ramone, if you’re still reading this you’re probably as daft as i am, and i bet you wish you’d never asked… :smiling_imp:

edit…throttle control, it takes a while but you will get the feeling for engaging the clutch smoothly, i too was lurching the thing all the time when i first got it but after a while got the feel for it.
the uphill reverse you have to do is going to be a swine, no two ways about it, the one i have to do its a case of just give it full power and let her go in snail reverse (you must have the two maneuvering modes for forward and reverse on the gearswitch?) and don’t let off.
Hint, wheelspin is what defeats some of our lads at the one we have to do, cos if the vehicle senses wheelspin it cuts the power which disengages the clutch hence overheated clutches after several attempts, so before i do any tight maneuvers i dump the air in the mid lift and turn off traction control (ASR in MAN), that allows full power with a fully engaged clutch.
I think you’ll have it worse than i do cos the DAF with this box has always had an on/off clutch operation.

I’ll shut up now… :laughing:

72

I learnt on a manual, told gear you go up a hil or mountain in is the one you come down the other side in, this stood me in good stead and I was perfectly happy with manuals. The only expirience I had with an auto till now was with a Merc EPS, this was in the 80’s and the thing jumped out of gear at the most inoppotune moment, on the old road coming down the mountain to Irun (a bottom clenching moment) luckily I was only going slow and could stop her on the brakes, stopped and reset it calmed down and re set off and she gave me no problems all the way to Valencia and back. This episode was always in the back of my mind, so I was not an immediate fan of auto’s. Then came my sabatical and I was off the road for nearly 25 years, came back in 2014 and how things have changed quite, comftable are just two things that spring to mind on modern trucks then we go to gearboxes. I only drive part time and with an agency so I have driven many different types of trucks both manual, auto and semi auto and after learning how to drive them I have the following observations: On distance motorway work manual auto or semi doesn’t make much difference as most of the running is in top and to drop half or full gear or two all seem up to the job. On town work auto is far easier (try 16 speed CF across London arm leg ache or what) the down side to that is on the autos I have driven they are less responsive and less manuverable (you could boil a kettle in the time it takes the Man to pull away and in tight places have to put it into low to have some assembalance of control). The one I prefer is the semi auto with the clutch pedal as on the Scania this seems to me to find the right balance, the only problem I had when connected up to the drag was it selecting too low a gear to start off but soon sorted by flicking to manual and selecting myself. I think everyone has a different opinion on this and older drivers can see both sides, the new guys will only see and drive autos as I would say 80% of the trucks I now drive are autos, so one things for sure auto’s are here to stay. My last thought is what happens when the motor is 10/15 years old with a million K’s on it how reliable are they going to be and if they need replacing how much will that cost?

73

tonyj105:

ramone:

V8Lenny:

ramone:
Well Merc were probably first with auto boxes as we now know them

No, Eaton was first with their semi-automatic, later fully automatic.

Just ordered a new R450 Scania, had to pay 600€ extra for stick and clutchpedal.

Was it the SAMT and did you ever drive 1 , and if so what were they like and while im thinking did anyone on here ever drive a 2 pedal Beaver or V8 Mandator ,how did they work ? I will stick my neck out here but that will probably be the best 600 euros you ever spend , its scandalous that they are now charging more for manuals .
My first day back after a week in Spain and i promised myself i wouldn`t get wound up with the bag of [zb] .Well that lasted all of 10 mins , i had to go to one of our yards to fill up because the last driver had left it nearly empty so at 5.40 this morning i was trying to reverse round a yard full of wagons up to the pump and it was business as usual

i used to drive a 2 pedal scammell handyman now and again, really fast changing box (5 speed + splitter), changing down fully laden could produce a pronounced bounce, and reversing could be challenging,its the one on the far left of the photo.

That sounds an interesting drive , the modern autos are a manual constant mesh box with a clutch and a genius of a computer that changes gear for you and never crunches one ever. I think but im not 100 % sure that the Scammell would have had a torque converter , ive heard the V8 Mandators were fitted with a 10 speed semi auto splitter and the splitter switch was very sensitive and if accidentally knocked could send the revs through the roof, the reversing you mention sounds very familiar to the modern day autos

74

Juddian:

ramone:
I keep repeating myself but here we go how do you get the pile of crap to change up when it should i.e in the green band and change down when it should not when it feels like it also when reversing into tight spots no consistency with the throttle just a jerky reaction the volvo i shift is the best on the market probably because it was designed by volvo for volvos

The only way to get ZF’s auto to change at the right moment to suit the characteristics of the engine is to do it yourself, anything else is pants.
I assume you have PROFI on the gearswitch?, if so it has the option to drive it manually assuming it hasn’t been disabled at the dealership, if it doesn’t have PROFI then its probably auto only but still worth trying to flick manual on and have a go.

Its nearly 3 years since i drove a DAF with this box, but from what i recall the controls were more or less identical to the MAN i’ve got now.

Generally you either have manual or auto, best to select manual via the little column switch before you start off (or once up and running in 12th), if its like mine it’ll probably default to third as start gear whether manual or auto loaded…the MAN usually selects 5th itself as start gear empty unless you’ve approached a hill start and the gear/fuel loading sensors has triggered a lower gear, the same scenario applies if you’re loaded, it might select 2nd instead.
It will also revert to 3rd start gear if you have it manual mode empty, dunno why but there’s no rhyme nor reason to this box and its programming.

If you try and override the auto it doesn’t do as Scanias auto box does and allow you to interfere when necessary yet stay in auto mode (unless you deliberately switch it to manual), the ZF flicks over to manual if you even shift one gear yourself…but it will revert to auto again after about 10/20 seconds which is just about the time you’re changing gear again manually so you’ll get two changes instead and you’ll be issuing as many curses as i have.
So if you try to select manual mode whilst moving in in between gears it will in all likelihood revert to auto after a time, then again it might not depending on which side of the bed the computer from hell got out of bed that morning…there that clear as mud innit.

I suggest you try manual mode for a while loaded, be warned it’s not the most responsive box in the world but if you flick the switch once twice or three times it should change the same amount of gears…we’ve got several identical MAN’s, mine will only allow a maximum of 3 block changes (ie 3rd to 6th), where one of the others allows up to 4, haven’t a clue why.

We run full weights, my loaded regime is start in 3rd if level ground, then 6, then 8 then up each gear…if you check the dash hopefully in manual mode it will show you by little arrows (MAN does this hopefully DAF too) how many gears are available at any given speed, this is especially useful for maximum exhaust braking via manual downshifts.

Ramone, if you’re still reading this you’re probably as daft as i am, and i bet you wish you’d never asked… :smiling_imp:

edit…throttle control, it takes a while but you will get the feeling for engaging the clutch smoothly, i too was lurching the thing all the time when i first got it but after a while got the feel for it.
the uphill reverse you have to do is going to be a swine, no two ways about it, the one i have to do its a case of just give it full power and let her go in snail reverse (you must have the two maneuvering modes for forward and reverse on the gearswitch?) and don’t let off.
Hint, wheelspin is what defeats some of our lads at the one we have to do, cos if the vehicle senses wheelspin it cuts the power which disengages the clutch hence overheated clutches after several attempts, so before i do any tight maneuvers i dump the air in the mid lift and turn off traction control (ASR in MAN), that allows full power with a fully engaged clutch.
I think you’ll have it worse than i do cos the DAF with this box has always had an on/off clutch operation.

I’ll shut up now… :laughing:

I can change gear in auto or manual at any time and to be fair its very responsive , the point though is if i have to change gear for it then whats the point of having an auto in the first place.The only thing i find ok with it is on motorways , i set the cruise and leave it to do the rest, i`ve noticed if i have to slow right down and it drops a few gears ,if i press resume on the cruise control it will change up perfectly in the green all the way to top gear, this never happens when using the accelerator.I use the hill start button all the time and that works , i think the problem lies between the accelerator and the computer ,they dont seem to work in tandem. Thanks for the tips

75

zulu1512:
I learnt on a manual, told gear you go up a hil or mountain in is the one you come down the other side in, this stood me in good stead and I was perfectly happy with manuals. The only expirience I had with an auto till now was with a Merc EPS, this was in the 80’s and the thing jumped out of gear at the most inoppotune moment, on the old road coming down the mountain to Irun (a bottom clenching moment) luckily I was only going slow and could stop her on the brakes, stopped and reset it calmed down and re set off and she gave me no problems all the way to Valencia and back. This episode was always in the back of my mind, so I was not an immediate fan of auto’s. Then came my sabatical and I was off the road for nearly 25 years, came back in 2014 and how things have changed quite, comftable are just two things that spring to mind on modern trucks then we go to gearboxes. I only drive part time and with an agency so I have driven many different types of trucks both manual, auto and semi auto and after learning how to drive them I have the following observations: On distance motorway work manual auto or semi doesn’t make much difference as most of the running is in top and to drop half or full gear or two all seem up to the job. On town work auto is far easier (try 16 speed CF across London arm leg ache or what) the down side to that is on the autos I have driven they are less responsive and less manuverable (you could boil a kettle in the time it takes the Man to pull away and in tight places have to put it into low to have some assembalance of control). The one I prefer is the semi auto with the clutch pedal as on the Scania this seems to me to find the right balance, the only problem I had when connected up to the drag was it selecting too low a gear to start off but soon sorted by flicking to manual and selecting myself. I think everyone has a different opinion on this and older drivers can see both sides, the new guys will only see and drive autos as I would say 80% of the trucks I now drive are autos, so one things for sure auto’s are here to stay. My last thought is what happens when the motor is 10/15 years old with a million K’s on it how reliable are they going to be and if they need replacing how much will that cost?

The Scania with a clutch pedal would be my preffered choice but they too can be very slow to set off , you can pre set the starting gear on the scania by turning on the ignition and flicking the gear stalk to the required starting gear required and holding it either in the down or up position for a few seconds and it will set off in that gear everytime. I cant remember exactly how to do it but any scania dealers mechanic can tell you how . The highest gear though would be 3rd it wont let you set off any higher than that

76

‘’ the point though is if i have to change gear for it then what`s the point of having an auto in the first place’’

Two main reasons IMO

1, any fool can sit behind the wheel and steer it, no particular skills needed for 99% of the day, just point it and press the loud pedal, nobody official appears to take a blind bit of notice at the resulting carnage

2, another few years and the fool behind the wheel won’t be needed at all, and this i am sure this is the ultimate goal

77

Juddian:
‘’
another few years and the fool behind the wheel won’t be needed at all, and this i am sure this is the ultimate goal

That seems to be the long term agenda but I’d bet that the computer nerds are way over estimating the real world abilities of the electronic brain v its human competitor.Which seems to be proven so far being that even the state of the art in auto transmissions can’t provide the visual road situational awareness and reaction to same,engine/input shaft speed/clutch slip/biting point,interface of the human brain connected to a pair of eyes,legs/feet and arms/hands.So maybe they’ll build that driverless truck but wether it will be able to take a truck load of freight from A to B over all terrains and conditions as good as a human can will probably be open to debate for the foreseeable future. :bulb:

78

Well it will be a sad day tomorrow, i will be parking the Daf up for a while as i go back to office duties The lorry itself is imho a decent motor its quiet comfortable it has ample power at 460 hp and most importantly it has a fridge which as been priceless in the recent hot weather stocked up with bottles of water , ideal when i was trying to keep my cool coping with continuous disagrements between the throttle and the computer. If this motor was fitted with a 16 speed manual ZF i would have had no complaints , today grossing at 36 tons i hit 56 mph on the M62 and let the cruise do the rest, going up the long drag from Brighouse to Ainley Top i had a little smile to myself as it couldn`t make its mind up to which gear it prefered 11th then down to tenth then back to 11th then down to tenth reving in the blue , so i intervened knocked it into manual selected 10th and let up a little on the throttle back in the green reached the top and back into auto pressed resume on the cruise and then it started all over again at the next hill , at least this time i remembered to select manual before touching the exhaust brake going down windy hill :smiley: :wink:

79

I came across a E reg Foden 4000 8 wheeler yesterday which had a Allinson auto box in from new it was with a l10 290 and was one of 40 new to Birmingham city council waste ,anyone else seen these ?

80

Dan, I remember seeing (I think either an ERF or Foden?) on a road job many years ago and that had an auto box in it. The driver used to stand outside on the cab step when reversing it on site, not sure that H&S would approve nowadays? :confused: :laughing: My first experience of an auto box in a commercial vehicle was the BMC 350 FG’s that Manor Bakeries (Mr Kipling) ran back in the 70’s. They had Borg Warner boxes and the drivers were dab hands at bursting the boxes by holding them flat out in mid range and then knocking the lever back into HIGH, only trouble was that the nylon gate wore and instead of top they sometimes hit PARK instead and the casing then exploded along with the rear wheels locking solid! :open_mouth:

Pete.