Atkinson - Aki, Atki, or Atky!

[carryfast]

Bewick:

Carryfast:

VALKYRIE:
If Atkinson had made the RPPL Aussie Skippy Cab standard or optional on British market Atkinson
lorries,the company might have sold a lot more lorries than what they did! - and would have been
in a stronger position to resist Seddon and any other predatory companies!

VALKYRIE.

But the eventual 400/401 SA seems to show that they produced a better product as a merged firm than either did when they were independent .

Sorry me old Mucker I have to,very reluctantly , disagree with you there,speaking from first hand knowledge having run Atkinsons,Seddons and the Sed Atks.Both the Borderer and the Seddon 32/4 were both better motors than the early Sed/Atks.Cheers Bewick.

wjriding.webs.com/seddonatkinson400.htm

[harry_gill]

Carryfast:

Bewick:

Carryfast:

VALKYRIE:
If Atkinson had made the RPPL Aussie Skippy Cab standard or optional on British market Atkinson
lorries,the company might have sold a lot more lorries than what they did! - and would have been
in a stronger position to resist Seddon and any other predatory companies!

VALKYRIE.

But the eventual 400/401 SA seems to show that they produced a better product as a merged firm than either did when they were independent .

Sorry me old Mucker I have to,very reluctantly , disagree with you there,speaking from first hand knowledge having run Atkinsons,Seddons and the Sed Atks.Both the Borderer and the Seddon 32/4 were both better motors than the early Sed/Atks.Cheers Bewick.

wjriding.webs.com/seddonatkinson400.htm

Hiya,
I could never fault the Seddon 32/4 with a big Roller inboard a real flying machine we had lots at Consett BRS can’t really talk about the Sed Aks only did a little bit of local with them and the Atkinson with the 180 G set up by John Killingbeck was a legend, and equally excellent with a big ■■■■■■■ or the 240 G a proper drivers motor.
thanks harry, long retired.

[valkyrie]

marky:
Valkyrie - read the thread about Atkinsons on here - or use the search facility with the keywords of the information you’re looking for.

Most, if not all of the queries you’ve raised in your last post can be answered by the posts on that thread.

You never know, it might save you an hour or two in having to type a chapter of War & Peace every time you post

Atkinson Vehicle Model Designations.

Hello Marky. With respect,I only asked two questions.And these were/are as follows:-
NOTE:What did the CLT letters in the CLT.3846RR model designation mean? Please.And a further

NOTE:At the end of certain Atkinson model designations there is a letter in brackets:-I’ve come across
(E),(L),(S) and (T) so far - so what do these letters mean and/or signify? Please.Thanks.

I was hoping 240 Gardner or some other Atkinson expert would be able to answer them.

I’ve used the Forum’s search facility,but it didn’t come up with anything -surprise,surprise - except that it did come up with my above post!
I’ve also been on the Internet and asked it the above questions in various and/or edited ways - but it came up with nothing
So it appears as though this Forum and the Internet - as yet - cannot answer the above questions.
…I might end up buying Atkinson Vehicle Specifications Booklets to find out the answers…
I’m quite familar with Atkinson vehicle model designations,and I’m 99% sure of what they all mean,except
for the remaining 1% which includes the CLT letters of CLT.3846RR and certain Atkinson model designations there is a letter in brackets:-(E),(L),(S) and (T)
So once again,what do the above letters mean and signify? Please.Thanks

Yes.I like to write informative posts For example,I nearly always try to write detailed posts,for me,I try to
include the model designation of say,Atkinson Gold Knight S2486XL,Reinforced Plastics Pty Ltd “Skippy”-cabbed,Gardner 6LX 150-engined,Tipper-bodied,8x4 Lorry,XWW 926G,1968-1969.R.Hanson & Son,Wakefield.

You are in no doubt that is what exactly the above Atkinson lorry is,it’s registration and who owns it! I always try to avoid something like:-“Atkinson Skippy-cabbed,eight-wheeler lorry of R.Hanson”. There is a lack of very important and vital information
Thus,the more detail the better! Information about any subject is very important:-“The more you know about a subject,the richer it becomes”,very wisely said by the great and superlative clarinet player,musician,arranger,composer,writer and big band orchestra leader,ARTIE SHAW

VALKYRIE.

[240_gardner]

VALKYRIE:
What did the CLT letters in the CLT.3846RR model designation mean?

Continental Left hand drive Tractor! Incidentally, I am sitting here looking at the chassis build cards for five of them - all were built with the RR220 engine not the 265, though they were a mix of sleeper and day cab.

They also had power steering and spring brakes, not customary on an Atkinson tractor in 1969. Chassis number FC17209 apparently cost £5089 6s 0d to build! The day cab from Krupp was costed at £1288 17s 9d, whilst the RR engine cost £1038, including installation fittings. The ZF gearbox accounted for £347 8s 5d and the Kirkstall 13 ton axle was £490 4s 10d.

[valkyrie]

240 Gardner:

VALKYRIE:
What did the CLT letters in the CLT.3846RR model designation mean?

Continental Left hand drive Tractor! Incidentally, I am sitting here looking at the chassis build cards for five of them - all were built with the RR220 engine not the 265, though they were a mix of sleeper and day cab.

They also had power steering and spring brakes, not customary on an Atkinson tractor in 1969. Chassis number FC17209 apparently cost £5089 6s 0d to build! The day cab from Krupp was costed at £1288 17s 9d, whilst the RR engine cost £1038, including installation fittings. The ZF gearbox accounted for £347 8s 5d and the Kirkstall 13 ton axle was £490 4s 10d.

VALKYRIE replies:-
Atkinson Vehicle Model Designations.

EUREKA! Thank you very much 240 Gardner .I’ve been spectulating on what the CLT letters of the CLT.3846RR might mean,and the word-name Continental did come in to my mind,CLT being an
abbreviation for Continental.But the sequence of the letters just do not add up! The sequence
would have had to be CTL! …but I was close. CLT = Continental Left hand drive Tractor.
Very good .
And thanks for the additional information on the Atkinson Krupp Tractive Units ;the prices seem
so relatively cheap! But they wouldn’t be these days with our current debased money due to
inflation . Thus I’ve been on this UK Inflation Calculator Website:-
whatsthecost.com/cpi.aspx

And it’s come up with some very interesting price comparison figures for 1969 and the equivalent
prices of 2012 - I’ve rounded the original 1969 prices by one pound + or - in some cases.

Krupp day steel cab:-
£1,289.00 in 1969 is equivalent to £15,163.55 in 2012.

In other words, £1,289.00 today can buy the same as £82.44 could in 1969.

ZF gearbox:-
£348.00 in 1969 is equivalent to £4,093.81 in 2012.

In other words, £348.00 today can buy the same as £22.26 could in 1969.

Kirkstall 13 ton axle:-
£491.00 in 1969 is equivalent to £5,776.03 in 2012.

In other words, £491.00 today can buy the same as £31.40 could in 1969.

Rolls-Royce Eagle 220 Diesel Engine:-
£1,038.00 in 1969 is equivalent to £12,210.83 in 2012

In other words, £1,038.00 today can buy the same as £66.38 could in 1969

(Assuming a yearly inflation rate of 2% from 2011 onwards)

The building cost of a Atkinson Silver Knight CLT.3846RR Krupp Day -cabbed,4x2 Tractive Unit:-
£5,089.00 in 1969 is equivalent to £59,866.02 in 2012.

In other words, £5,089.00 today can buy the same as £325.46 could in 1969.

The above 1969 and 2012 prices just shows how much damage inflation does to the value of our money . I think inflation is a naturally occuring side effect of the economic system of the United Kingdom,and of other countries .It seems that no government in any country can stamp out inflation,because it’s a built-in flaw of the economic system or systems of the world .

Anyway,240 Gardner,thanks again for breaking the CLT code! Station X-Bletchley Park would be proud of you But I assumme that you do not know the answer to the meanings of the bracketed capital (E),(L),(S) and (T) letters at the end of certain Atkinson vehicle model desiginations .

VALKYRIE.

[carryfast]

VALKYRIE:
The above 1969 and 2012 prices just shows how much damage inflation does to the value of our money . I think inflation is a naturally occuring side effect of the economic system of the United Kingdom,and of other countries .It seems that no government in any country can stamp out inflation,because it’s a built-in flaw of the economic system or systems of the world .

The reason for that i political dogma.The fact is inflation is price led so control prices then you’ll control inflation.But that goes against the bs idea of the so called ‘free market economy’.So they try to do it by controlling incomes instead in a vain attempt to control prices.Which just still means high prices and a stagnant economy because no one can afford to buy enough stuff.

The flaw is in the idea of using something that’s value less as a needless component in the barter system and the idea of one person thinking that what they do is miles more valuable than what someone else does.Which effectively means that we’re actually still in the dark ages in which treatable illnesses would wipe out the population because no one can actually afford medical treatment so the doctors eventually starve and have nowhere to live or hospitals to work in or tools to work with because there are no workers left.

[marky]

Good God, another thread ruined.

Won’t be worth bothering on here soon…

[bassman]

Hi, 240 Gardner,
Thanks for answers to my query, I can’t understand why Atkinson would go to the lengths it did to produce the “Clearview” cab without some kind of market research.
It would seem that if they had such a diehard customer base that they would have sounded them out on such a cab design, not just gone ahead and produced it .( even if it was only one.)
But I suppose that credit is due to Atkinson for listening to it’s customers and withdrawing it .
The same can be said of the “Viewline " cab , a cab I rated highly, but you state that it had limited demand and again the customers won,I’m not saying they shouldn’t ,it’s their money,” you pays your money ,you take your choice"
Frankydobo , says that the air cooled Ruston engine fitted to DMT’s motor was a one off, do you have any info. on that? I am intrigued that an engine like that would be fitted in a premium motor,unless it was experimental.

Also my thanks to Valkyrie for his detailed posts, all answers have made interesting reading.

Cheers Bassman

[wheeltapper]

240 Gardner:

marky:
The Guardsman which was exhibited in Bulwark livery in 1964 was powered by a V8 ■■■■■■■ engine, not a straight six. As befits the oft-used slant of book editors, the Ruston-engined tin-front was probably used in print because it was a one-off; in latter years, it wouldn’t even have got beyond prototype stage. The Guardsman was not a success because it wasn’t accepted by Atkinson’s traditional customer base - who stuck to what they were used to and told Atkinson so; hence it never going into full production.

The tin-front Castrol eight-wheeler & trailer (restored by Robin Smith) later called the ‘Bodyline’ was another variation on the traditional Atkinson theme which again failed to secure widespread acceptance amongst their customers. I suspect the thinking at the time was that if the design couldn’t persuade their committed customers to buy it, they weren’t going to attract new buyers. In hindsight, whether we agree with them or not - the people who were buying the Atkinson products at the time were quite sure what they wanted. In terms of the design, at that time they wanted the traditional Withnell-tubed radiator - so the tin-front ‘Bodyline’ was aborted. The plus-side of that was the introduction of the twin-headlights. Even with the release of the Mk II, which later evolved into the Borderer/Venturer/Leader/Defender/Raider/Searcher range, Atkinson styled the new model on what the customer preferred - by hiding the radiator behind a glass-fibre mimic of the original. If nothing else, this might illustrate that the company had learned their lesson from previous styling failures.

All spot-on - the late Frank Whalley (Publicity & Promotions Manager for Atkinson, for those who didn’t know of him) used to tell the tale of receiving a deputation from a group of Scottish hauliers, concerning the dummy radiator first shown on the Mk.2. at Kelvin Hall in 1967. They were demanding the reinstatement of the aluminium radiator when the new model went into production. Sums were duly done, and it was estimated that the additional cost would be £25/chassis. Thereafter, there was no further discussion…

As Marky rightly says, customers demanded that “look” about the motors, hence why the Viewline went into production with the dummy radiator.

Why did the Viewline not succeed? Apart from niche applications where its 3-seater potential came in handy (RTITB, abnormal loads), the committed customer base, such as Sutton’s, Hanson’s, NCB, Northern Ireland Trailers, the oil companies, etc., showed no enthusiasm for it whatsover. Also, although it was listed, briefly, as the standard cab on the 6x4 tractor, the Mk.2 cab could be fitted for a rebate of £150 - quite a lot, in proportion to the total vehicle price. Hence, it was all over for the Viewline by 1970, the last ones I’m aware of being 5 for Pickfords on J-plates

240 Do you know who the Scotish operators were ?
It would be interesting to know ?
And how long they stuck with British built lorries before moving onto European options ?

[valkyrie]

Atkinson Bodyline Ruston & Aircooled Diesel-engined 4x2 Tractive Unit - Articulated Lowloader Lorry,VFE 848,of DMT,Etc.

Hello Bassman.I’ve been doing some detective work regarding the above lorry :-

flickr.com/photos/64012895@N05/6850055929/
In one of the comments about this lorry on Flickr,240 Gardner says that the Ruston & Hornsby engine produced around 125 BHP - this gives a very good clue as to what engine it actually was

Ruston & Hornsby (now European Gas Turbines,owned by Siemens,of Germany) is a really old established City of Lincoln-based engineering company,whose products have included steam traction engines and marine and
industrial diesel engines.
Now I already knew that Lincoln City installed a Ruston & Hornsby 6YDA Aircooled Diesel Engine in one of
their Guy Arab Mk III/Park Royal Double Decker Buses,DFE 383,No.23,which is now preserved:-
flickr.com/photos/mr-bg/4070035426/

But what I had forgotten was that the North Western Road Car Company fitted a Ruston & Hornsby 6YDA engine in to a Leyland Titan PD2/12/Weymann Double Decker Bus,FDB 555,No.555:-
flickr.com/photos/roadtransp … 053276448/

Both of these engines proved to be quite successful in these buses,although the North Western Leyland
Titan was re-engined with a Leyland O.600 Diesel Engine in 1965 .

Now,there was a connection between Atkinson Vehicles and North Western because Atkinson built many
buses and motorcoaches for Northern Western,and worked in close conjunction with each other.So Atkinson
would have been aware of the Ruston & Hornsby - engined Leyland Titan,and Atkinson,always keen to try
out differant engine models,must have decided to give the Ruston & Hornsby 6YDA engine a try.
So DMT Transport of Lincoln bought that Ruston & Hornsby -engined Atkinson,VFE 848.registered in Lincoln
in June 1963,and DMT,Atkinson and Ruston & Hornsby must have worked closely together to evaluate the
engine.
The specfications of the above Ruston & Hornsby 6YDA Aircooled Diesel Engine were:-
7.39- Litres,in-line 6-cylinder.
110 BHP,and uprated to 125 BHP when installed in the two buses,so it’s most likely that the same uprated
engine was fitted in the Atkinson

In answer to Wheeltapper,one of the Scottish lorry operators could have been Munro Transport (Aberdeen)
Ltd,because this company operated a few Atkinson Bodyline-cabbed lorries…I think,including
Atkinson Bodyline T746X 4x2 Flat-bodied Articulated Lorry,URG 456,registered in Aberdeen in early 1963:-
flickr.com/photos/dscn8785/4547752938/

And here is a preserved Atkinson Bodyline T746X 4x2 Artic,Originally VRS 753,registered in Aberdeen in late 1963,and operated by Monro Transport,re-registered FSV 959 and preserved by Tom Shanks,Stonehaven.
Now preserved by Mike Dreelan.
flickr.com/photos/58372983@N08/5743947963/

More photographs of this lorry on Big Lorry Blog:-
commercialmotor.com/big-lorr … spotted-by

VALKYRIE.

[240_gardner]

VALKYRIE:
But I assumme that you do not know the answer to the meanings of the bracketed capital (E),(L),(S) and (T) letters at the end of certain Atkinson vehicle model desiginations .

VALKYRIE.

E=Eaton driving axle, S=Splitter gearbox

I don’t recall ever seeing a ‘T’ suffix though

With regard to the Ruston-engined tractor, I believe it was operated as a test bed for Ruston’s purposes, rather than Atkinson’s.

[240_gardner]

Bassman:
Hi, 240 Gardner,
The same can be said of the “Viewline " cab , a cab I rated highly, but you state that it had limited demand and again the customers won,I’m not saying they shouldn’t ,it’s their money,” you pays your money ,you take your choice"Cheers Bassman

I, too, rated the Viewline very highly, and 19 years’ ownership gave me plenty of opportunity to form an opinion! But if I, as an operator in the late 1960s, had had the opportunity to have the same spec vehicle for £150 less, then Mk.2 cab it would have been for me! Haulage is purely a commercial operation after all. It wasn’t just the cab itself that raised the price: the cab design dicated a different front axle location, hence different springs & steering and even a different exhaust. It also had a rudimentary cab suspension, and was not rigidly mounted like the Mk.1 and Mk.2 cabs.

[shakysteve]

240 Gardner:

Bassman:
Hi, 240 Gardner,
The same can be said of the “Viewline " cab , a cab I rated highly, but you state that it had limited demand and again the customers won,I’m not saying they shouldn’t ,it’s their money,” you pays your money ,you take your choice"Cheers Bassman

I, too, rated the Viewline very highly, and 19 years’ ownership gave me plenty of opportunity to form an opinion! But if I, as an operator in the late 1960s, had had the opportunity to have the same spec vehicle for £150 less, then Mk.2 cab it would have been for me! Haulage is purely a commercial operation after all. It wasn’t just the cab itself that raised the price: the cab design dicated a different front axle location, hence different springs & steering and even a different exhaust. It also had a rudimentary cab suspension, and was not rigidly mounted like the Mk.1 and Mk.2 cabs.

240,have you any news on the Freeths 6x4 wrecker,Steve.

[bassman]

Hi, 240,

Thanks for that , I hadn’t realized that there was so many actual mechanical differences with the Viewline cab. I was young and headstrong when my limited experience of the Viewline took place, more interested in what it could do and earn me than how it was built. But now I am older and ( I think) wiser and can go into the finer details.

Cheers Bassman

[bassman]

Hi Valkyrie ,

Thanks for your info on the Ruston engined Atkinson. I wonder how long it lasted, or if it(the engine ) saw the truck out. If it didn’t would it have been replaced with the same again, or modified to take another engine. Ooh! All these things to wonder about and chew over. Thanks again.

Cheers Bassman

[sammyopisite]

240 Gardner:

marky:
The Guardsman which was exhibited in Bulwark livery in 1964 was powered by a V8 ■■■■■■■ engine, not a straight six. As befits the oft-used slant of book editors, the Ruston-engined tin-front was probably used in print because it was a one-off; in latter years, it wouldn’t even have got beyond prototype stage. The Guardsman was not a success because it wasn’t accepted by Atkinson’s traditional customer base - who stuck to what they were used to and told Atkinson so; hence it never going into full production.

The tin-front Castrol eight-wheeler & trailer (restored by Robin Smith) later called the ‘Bodyline’ was another variation on the traditional Atkinson theme which again failed to secure widespread acceptance amongst their customers. I suspect the thinking at the time was that if the design couldn’t persuade their committed customers to buy it, they weren’t going to attract new buyers. In hindsight, whether we agree with them or not - the people who were buying the Atkinson products at the time were quite sure what they wanted. In terms of the design, at that time they wanted the traditional Withnell-tubed radiator - so the tin-front ‘Bodyline’ was aborted. The plus-side of that was the introduction of the twin-headlights. Even with the release of the Mk II, which later evolved into the Borderer/Venturer/Leader/Defender/Raider/Searcher range, Atkinson styled the new model on what the customer preferred - by hiding the radiator behind a glass-fibre mimic of the original. If nothing else, this might illustrate that the company had learned their lesson from previous styling failures.

All spot-on - the late Frank Whalley (Publicity & Promotions Manager for Atkinson, for those who didn’t know of him) used to tell the tale of receiving a deputation from a group of Scottish hauliers, concerning the dummy radiator first shown on the Mk.2. at Kelvin Hall in 1967. They were demanding the reinstatement of the aluminium radiator when the new model went into production. Sums were duly done, and it was estimated that the additional cost would be £25/chassis. Thereafter, there was no further discussion…

As Marky rightly says, customers demanded that “look” about the motors, hence why the Viewline went into production with the dummy radiator.

Why did the Viewline not succeed? Apart from niche applications where its 3-seater potential came in handy (RTITB, abnormal loads), the committed customer base, such as Sutton’s, Hanson’s, NCB, Northern Ireland Trailers, the oil companies, etc., showed no enthusiasm for it whatsover. Also, although it was listed, briefly, as the standard cab on the 6x4 tractor, the Mk.2 cab could be fitted for a rebate of £150 - quite a lot, in proportion to the total vehicle price. Hence, it was all over for the Viewline by 1970, the last ones I’m aware of being 5 for Pickfords on J-plates

Hi 240 you learn something new every day I never realised that my old wagon was one of the last Viewlines I think they were EMD515J to EMD519J mine being 518J fleet number M6728 and it had a ZF 6 speed box and in the 4 years I had it never let me down in that time.
cheers Johnnie

P S that wagon earned me a lot of money

[carlc]

I think the question was how do you pronounce the shortened name of the Atkinson■■? What followed was a load of scrotum about cabs and engines and the exam paper for the open university advanced boring git degree. Come on guys it has gone well of thread.
Cliff

[solly]

Carlc:
I think the question was how do you pronounce the shortened name of the Atkinson■■? What followed was a load of scrotum about cabs and engines and the exam paper for the open university advanced boring git degree. Come on guys it has gone well of thread.
Cliff

Love it Carlc…although I think most would fail any exam as they can’t read the question right.

In reply to the O/P. Frankydobo…I think it’s a regional thing. Up in the Northeast they are referred to as Aki’s.

[frankydobo]

Cheers Solly I was beginning to think I was on my own and needed a bit of Northern back up, I can’t actually say ATKI in my head without it sounding wrong. Your right it must be something exclusive to our area like Clarts, Bliddy and Wi aye! Cheers Franky.

[bewick]

Around our way they were always referred to as AKY’S.But IMO it would be one hell of a boring thread without the addition of all the extra “crack”,at least the narrowly based question was broadened out and very interesting,which,of course wouldn’t have transpired had it not been for the basic question in the first place,would it ? Bewick.