Are we hgv drivers low skilled workers?

[rjan]

maga:
dream on

to the OP lorry driving is without a doubt low skilled and should be included, whether it will or not is another matter

These categories have fuzzy edges, but I think you would say driving is a skilled occupation, in the sense that a person does need both a substantial amount of initial training (months) to be basically productive, and the perceptual skills involved benefit from regular honing. It also takes years to build up a decent knowledge of routes, sites, various equipment, regulatory rules, etc.

That doesn’t mean an untrained person can’t muddle through the basics after a relatively short demonstration, but the same is true of most skilled trades. Part of the skill is being able to handle a variety of situations on one’s own initiative, not just the simplest cases which have been delegated by a supervisor.

At any rate, the real dividing line between unskilled and skilled is simply how much the skill is acquired in everyday life as opposed to acquired in the course of pursuing a specific occupation.

Car driving is more common nowadays so that most people fully understand road driving principles (and most people automatically plough months of training into acquiring an initial car licence, and have several years driving experience under their belt before getting behind the wheel of a HGV), and mobile phones mean that help from experienced workers is never far away.

If every child was let loose with a helicopter, that would eventually become an “unskilled occupation”, not because it requires no skill, but because by time most kids were old enough to work, it would be considered an unremarkable and abundant skill and even the cheapest apprentice would be able to hop in and take to the sky, by virtue of many years of experience and informal training and supervision by adults.

That’s why workers shouldn’t accept “low skills” as being a justification for poverty pay, because many crucial jobs don’t require special skills, they just require someone to actually do them using the skills that are familiar to our culture (which has been bestowed by years of unpaid labour by adults who help raise children, and years of foregone wages by the child whilst in compulsory education), and that deserves a decent wage.

[del_trotter]

Jingle Jon:
On the subject. Because hgv drivers are qualified & not just any jo blo can do the job, combined with the critical nature of the job…

, as others have said, its 2 weeks of training once you have learnt to drive a car hardly a high barrier to entry or many skills required.

[uktramp]

Rjan:

maga:
dream on

to the OP lorry driving is without a doubt low skilled and should be included, whether it will or not is another matter

These categories have fuzzy edges, but I think you would say driving is a skilled occupation, in the sense that a person does need both a substantial amount of initial training (months) to be basically productive, and the perceptual skills involved benefit from regular honing. It also takes years to build up a decent knowledge of routes, sites, various equipment, regulatory rules, etc.

That doesn’t mean an untrained person can’t muddle through the basics after a relatively short demonstration, but the same is true of most skilled trades. Part of the skill is being able to handle a variety of situations on one’s own initiative, not just the simplest cases which have been delegated by a supervisor.

At any rate, the real dividing line between unskilled and skilled is simply how much the skill is acquired in everyday life as opposed to acquired in the course of pursuing a specific occupation.

Car driving is more common nowadays so that most people fully understand road driving principles (and most people automatically plough months of training into acquiring an initial car licence, and have several years driving experience under their belt before getting behind the wheel of a HGV), and mobile phones mean that help from experienced workers is never far away.

If every child was let loose with a helicopter, that would eventually become an “unskilled occupation”, not because it requires no skill, but because by time most kids were old enough to work, it would be considered an unremarkable and abundant skill and even the cheapest apprentice would be able to hop in and take to the sky, by virtue of many years of experience and informal training and supervision by adults.

That’s why workers shouldn’t accept “low skills” as being a justification for poverty pay, because many crucial jobs don’t require special skills, they just require someone to actually do them using the skills that are familiar to our culture (which has been bestowed by years of unpaid labour by adults who help raise children, and years of foregone wages by the child whilst in compulsory education), and that deserves a decent wage.

■■■■ it up buttercup, your an unskilled worker as a driver. After years of building up skills of driving there is no end qualification, a driving licence is a driving licence. Mine is no different to someone who passed their test yesterday. I am more valuable and employable than the new pass, end of.

[uktramp]

We all know what a waste of time the CPC qualification is. It is a government money spinner only. It is also a name only as it states certificate of PROFESSIONAL competence. The word professional has no real meaning to the term professional. So should only people who can demonstrate real skillful driving hold this qualification to become a skilled worker. New drivers should have to earn the CPC not just get it as is the case now.

[grumpy_dad]

UKtramp:

Rjan:

maga:
dream on

to the OP lorry driving is without a doubt low skilled and should be included, whether it will or not is another matter

These categories have fuzzy edges, but I think you would say driving is a skilled occupation, in the sense that a person does need both a substantial amount of initial training (months) to be basically productive, and the perceptual skills involved benefit from regular honing. It also takes years to build up a decent knowledge of routes, sites, various equipment, regulatory rules, etc.

That doesn’t mean an untrained person can’t muddle through the basics after a relatively short demonstration, but the same is true of most skilled trades. Part of the skill is being able to handle a variety of situations on one’s own initiative, not just the simplest cases which have been delegated by a supervisor.

At any rate, the real dividing line between unskilled and skilled is simply how much the skill is acquired in everyday life as opposed to acquired in the course of pursuing a specific occupation.

Car driving is more common nowadays so that most people fully understand road driving principles (and most people automatically plough months of training into acquiring an initial car licence, and have several years driving experience under their belt before getting behind the wheel of a HGV), and mobile phones mean that help from experienced workers is never far away.

If every child was let loose with a helicopter, that would eventually become an “unskilled occupation”, not because it requires no skill, but because by time most kids were old enough to work, it would be considered an unremarkable and abundant skill and even the cheapest apprentice would be able to hop in and take to the sky, by virtue of many years of experience and informal training and supervision by adults.

That’s why workers shouldn’t accept “low skills” as being a justification for poverty pay, because many crucial jobs don’t require special skills, they just require someone to actually do them using the skills that are familiar to our culture (which has been bestowed by years of unpaid labour by adults who help raise children, and years of foregone wages by the child whilst in compulsory education), and that deserves a decent wage.

■■■■ it up buttercup, your an unskilled worker as a driver. After years of building up skills of driving there is no end qualification, a driving licence is a driving licence. Mine is no different to someone who passed their test yesterday. I am more valuable and employable than the new pass, end of.

The only essential qualification a driver needs is his/her licence, a DCPC is not a qualification, there’s areas of specialised transport such as ADR or Abnormal Loads, but other than that it’s experienced required in that field no qualification for fridges or tankers etc.

[punchy_dan]

Juddian:
Spend an hour watching at a motorway services lorry park, or at a busy delivery point that is both tight and awkward, there you will find both the skilled and unskilled proving which they are.

There is no skill at all required in selecting D pressing the loud pedal and steering along a motorway on the limiter, any fool can do that.

Too many of us welcomed the deskilling of and the making too easy of our jobs, hence why in so much of our industry we are are easily replaced at a moments notice by any passing hivis with a valid or convincing licence who can follow instructions from the idiot nav.

Watching who parks where on the services ,very interesting,often there are spaces easy to get in to and out of but no some will shunt and shunt , it’s normally me who rocks in last to somewhere in the dark and rain and has to get in the only space left ,the worst one !

[grumpy_dad]

Germany have for years taken their LGV qualification very seriously, up to the point where it is now an apprenticeship qualification taking 3 years to acquire.

[daftvader]

Grumpy Dad:
Germany have for years taken their LGV qualification very seriously, up to the point where it is now an apprenticeship qualification taking 3 years to acquire.

And i bet they are still not payed a decent rate after all that.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[grumpy_dad]

daftvader:

Grumpy Dad:
Germany have for years taken their LGV qualification very seriously, up to the point where it is now an apprenticeship qualification taking 3 years to acquire.

And i bet they are still not payed a decent rate after all that.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

They are on no more than an average U.K. driver, approx €2200 per month.
But across Europe same as here in the U.K. the drivers were their own worst enemy, wanting more and offering less in return, not advisable when there’s a cheap willing workforce knocking on the door.

[rjan]

UKtramp:

Rjan:
[…]

■■■■ it up buttercup, your an unskilled worker as a driver. After years of building up skills of driving there is no end qualification, a driving licence is a driving licence. Mine is no different to someone who passed their test yesterday. I am more valuable and employable than the new pass, end of.

You don’t need a qualification as a plumber, or a carpenter, or a cobbler, or a plasterer, or a paper hanger for that matter, but by god you can tell the difference between the work of an amateur and an experienced professional.

I’m not trying to over-hype driving as being a profession. I’m simply saying, yes, it’s a skilled job.

You don’t just walk in off the street and drive a wagon.

But note it isn’t a requirement of a skilled job that it be rocket science beyond the wit of the man on the street.

The fact that a person suitably inclined, and with quite a bit of background, can drive reasonably after a few weeks, is no different to how a person can solder reasonably after a few weeks, or chisel wood after a few weeks, wire a panel after a few weeks, change a head gasket, or whatever.

[ironeddie]

del trotter:

Jingle Jon:
On the subject. Because hgv drivers are qualified & not just any jo blo can do the job, combined with the critical nature of the job…

[emoji38] , as others have said, its 2 weeks of training once you have learnt to drive a car hardly a high barrier to entry or many skills required.

For the period of 2016/17 there have been 78237 lgv tests, 44346 passes so a pass rate of 56.7% it was 55.5% for 2015/16

So clearly the barrier to entry is actually pretty high for a significant number of people.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

[eagerbeaver]

IronEddie:

del trotter:

Jingle Jon:
On the subject. Because hgv drivers are qualified & not just any jo blo can do the job, combined with the critical nature of the job…

[emoji38] , as others have said, its 2 weeks of training once you have learnt to drive a car hardly a high barrier to entry or many skills required.

For the period of 2016/17 there have been 78237 lgv tests, 44346 passes so a pass rate of 56.7% it was 55.5% for 2015/16

So clearly the barrier to entry is actually pretty high for a significant number of people.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Over the last 10 years or so, the national pass rate is creeping up from around 50% towards the 60% mark.

Passing in an auto is surely going to get it there The dumbing down continues…

[ironeddie]

eagerbeaver:

IronEddie:

del trotter:

Jingle Jon:
On the subject. Because hgv drivers are qualified & not just any jo blo can do the job, combined with the critical nature of the job…

[emoji38] , as others have said, its 2 weeks of training once you have learnt to drive a car hardly a high barrier to entry or many skills required.

For the period of 2016/17 there have been 78237 lgv tests, 44346 passes so a pass rate of 56.7% it was 55.5% for 2015/16

So clearly the barrier to entry is actually pretty high for a significant number of people.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Over the last 10 years or so, the national pass rate is creeping up from around 50% towards the 60% mark.

Passing in an auto is surely going to get it there The dumbing down continues…

Even at 60% pass a 40% failure rate is quite high. And I’d say suggestive of some amount of skill required beyond pushing the go pedal and turning the wheel. I simply disagree with the assertion by some that anyone can learn to drive a lorry. The numbers say otherwise [WHITE SMILING FACE]

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

[joeyd]

IronEddie:
I simply disagree with the assertion by some that anyone can learn to drive a lorry. The numbers say otherwise [WHITE SMILING FACE]

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Seriously, if you are unfortunate enough to spend any time in an RDC waiting room you will soon change your mind on that one

[dr_damon]

Captain Caveman 76:

Pat Hasler:
Although we all see ourselves as highly skilled it is not the case. From my knowledge I think British HGV drivers are more skilled than anywhere else in the world but the licence is not recognized in other countries outside the EU. I had to take my test all over again when I moved here, not that it is in any way difficult, in fact any idiot could pass a test here, this is why I say if you passed the test in the UK you are much more skilled, sadly according to US rules you have no skill.

How are truckers in America viewed by the American public?

I can answer that caveman having worked there.

Exactly the same as here.

[uktramp]

Rjan:

UKtramp:

Rjan:
[…]

■■■■ it up buttercup, your an unskilled worker as a driver. After years of building up skills of driving there is no end qualification, a driving licence is a driving licence. Mine is no different to someone who passed their test yesterday. I am more valuable and employable than the new pass, end of.

You don’t need a qualification as a plumber, or a carpenter, or a cobbler, or a plasterer, or a paper hanger for that matter, but by god you can tell the difference between the work of an amateur and an experienced professional.

I’m not trying to over-hype driving as being a profession. I’m simply saying, yes, it’s a skilled job.

You don’t just walk in off the street and drive a wagon.

But note it isn’t a requirement of a skilled job that it be rocket science beyond the wit of the man on the street.

The fact that a person suitably inclined, and with quite a bit of background, can drive reasonably after a few weeks, is no different to how a person can solder reasonably after a few weeks, or chisel wood after a few weeks, wire a panel after a few weeks, change a head gasket, or whatever.

I get what your saying but it isn’t classed as skilled work, skilled work is defined by qualification and having to study to gain the knowledge, day courses etc are not classed as skill. Otherwise every car driver in the country would be classed as skilled. Essentially an HGV licence is nothing more than acquiring a car licence. Likewise a dumper truck driver or a machine operator is not skilled either.

[andiehyde]

eagerbeaver:

Pat Hasler:
Although we all see ourselves as highly skilled it is not the case. From my knowledge I think British HGV drivers are more skilled than anywhere else in the world but the licence is not recognized in other countries outside the EU. I had to take my test all over again when I moved here, not that it is in any way difficult, in fact any idiot could pass a test here, this is why I say if you passed the test in the UK you are much more skilled, sadly according to US rules you have no skill.

Incorrect.

UK licence is valid in New Zealand. Needs swapping over and a theory test completed.

Car licence yes.
Truck licence, no.
Bike licence also no.

I have all 3 in the UK and the only thing I can drive here is a car.
When I owned a 360 excavator, I occasionally moved it between job sites with a mates artic and lowloader, but if I had been caught, probably a small fine. Friends O licence, big problem.

On a side note, truck driver was removed from the occupational shortage list here a couple of years ago and is not classed as a skilled job. Having been a UK and european driver myself for enough years, I would term the profession as Semi-skilled.

I took me 3 years to complete an apprenticeship in mechanical engineering.
It took 3 days to gain a class 1. Yes you need some skill to do the job but you dont need that much.

You come accross them most days, would you consider the forklift driver skilled■■?

[captain_caveman_76]

Jingle Jon:
I think the question was about ‘low skilled’… etc.

The thing about HGV driving is that it’s immensely diverse.

Some work requires extra qualifications - if not training.

The one thing we should all be recognised as at least… is qualified.

I’m not aware of the stats, but I do wonder how many people fail the test or what percentage actually pass.

So IMO, it should be recognised as both skilled and critical. Almost everything we use spends some time on a truck - either as a whole or in part… very few services can make that claim.

Two subjects regularly pop up on here, not counting the dash cam, sat nav, what time can I start again ones.
Drivers wages and are drivers professional. I’ve never understood why a group of workers all think they deserve higher pay, yet consider the work unskilled and therfore deserving of higher pay.

IMO driving is a skilled job. You can’t get someone off the street and get them to do my job and we all see what happens when drivers don’t focus 100% on what they’re doing.
Now if you ask me if it’s a professional job, you may get a different answer!

[rjan]

UKtramp:

Rjan:
[…]

I get what your saying but it isn’t classed as skilled work, skilled work is defined by qualification and having to study to gain the knowledge, day courses etc are not classed as skill. Otherwise every car driver in the country would be classed as skilled. Essentially an HGV licence is nothing more than acquiring a car licence. Likewise a dumper truck driver or a machine operator is not skilled either.

The fact that car drivers are considered unskilled was addressed in my point, that actually it’s an appreciably difficult skill to acquire (requiring a series of tests, practical and written, and weeks if not months of practice on both aspects, and years of honing), but it’s considered unskilled because most people have it and they acquire it as much for leisure and cultural reasons as for specific occupational reasons.

It’s the same as how reading and writing is considered unskilled nowadays, whereas once upon a time it would have put you in a professional occupation if not aristocratic status. The fact that all children have to spend years in full-time education acquiring reading and writing skills, earning nothing and being fed and watered by their parents and the state in the meantime, seems to be overlooked.

You mention machine operating as an unskilled role. It may be if the machine is simple and your role only consists of that one machine, but it would become a skilled role if you have to operate a wide variety of machinery without supervision, and address problems you encounter with it.

Very few factories, even with the simplest machines, could cope end-to-end with a completely inexperienced workforce who are sent in blind - what they do have is supervisors and experienced workers who supervise the unfamiliar and inexperienced.

It’s like operating agricultural machinery - doing so without damaging the machinery or the crops, and getting on with it when you’re on your own in the middle of some far-flung field, is a job for a skilled person. I’ve heard horror stories about farmers who took a different view.

[jingle_jon]

I agree with Rjan, on this… I’d also like to see the source of your skills definition UKtramp?

In my personal experience, passing the test was the easiest part.

Learning some of the vast number of additional skills came along hands on, one course at a time.

There are few of us left who can rope n sheet a load… not that I do anymore.

Animal transport requires another qualification, as does all the hazards etc…

Throw someone who’s done only fridge work or box work at general haulage without additional skills training… you’re asking for trouble.