Are trainers actually needed at all?

[lgvtrainer]

Might seem a strange thread from a trainer but does a trainee actually need our help ?

Obviously to drive a truck with only a provisional entitlement you must be accompanied by someone that has held the same category licence for at least 3 years (ignoring the PCV 1 year rule). So could any LGV driver with the relevant experience get you through the test with a pass?

The Positives

1. They have passed the same test and on that day demonstrated enough ability to pass. Perhaps they could pass that ability on to you.
2. It could save you a lot of money. You could either use a company vehicle (subject to complying with the many minimum test requirement regs) or merely hire one, again (subject to complying with the many minimum test requirement regs)
3. Perhaps you have recently passed either a Cat C1 or Cat D test and feel it can’t be much different. You may be correct.
4. You may be one of the very rare completely natural drivers who have the vision and gift to not require additional training.

The Negatives

1. Whilst the test is relatively straight forward to pass, the goalposts move on a regular basis. For example, in the last 3 years. IN came Loaded vehicles, choice of auto or manual, reduced size reversing area, independent drive (sorry if I’ve missed something). OUT went the controlled stop manoeuvre, 5 times the vehicle length for the reverse, the need to show theory pass certificates, minimum 8 gears manual gearboxes. (sorry if I’ve missed something). That’s only recently, most years something changes.
2. You would need to present a vehicle loaded with 5 tonnes of water in 1000 litre IBC tanks, equipped with mirrors to enable the examiner to see both nearside and offside aspects of the vehicle at all times.
3. Your qualified accompanying driver would have to take you through that 1st few hours of your driving practice. This period of the process he has only ever done once, and that once was as a beginner learner. Will you or him guide your steering wheel gently away from the oncoming vehicles IF you have slightly misjudged the gap with the fast moving oncoming traffic.

So it appears the positives of not using a recognised trainer out weight the positives by 4 to 3. As always it’s up to personal choice.

[radar19]

I think people need good trainers. I did my first block of training with a guy who didn’t have a clue on how to teach someone. He may know what he’s doing myself but he couldn’t translate that into real good quality training.

[m1cks]

I think trainers are needed for refining driving skills. You could be the best most experienced driver but thats no good if you dont know how to communicate with a learner.
Trainers will tend to use people siills more than actual driving knowledge.
I’m not sure I could train someone because I’d easily get fusrated if someone doesn’t understand me when I think I’m explaining it clearly. A good trainer however will be able to switch to a different method the trainee does understand.

[paul_pstt]

does a trainee actually need our help ?

Yes. One of my occupations is to train LGV Instructors. It normally takes about a day to get their own driving to a recognisable standard. As for the ability to teach, this can easily take a month before it starts showing any signs of being coherent and systematic.

These newbie instructors then need to be monitored and continually assessed before I would let them loose with a paying candidate with confidence.

So, given that process, I wonder what the chances are of a mate being able to train someone to an acceptable standard. The answer, I believe, is very low.

But, there again, most “trainers” are untrained and unqualified anyway so maybe John’s got a point!

Pete

[animal]

Think we stil need good trainers same as car do we need driving instructors for a car as you could go out with a relative or mate but could they teach you correctly

You could use a mixture of both ok then you wouldnt have the intense course take a lesson or 2 with instructor then practice during week with company ( if you work for 1 that will allow this ) then couple more lessons or 1 then test just a thought but trainers could still have the intense course if that is what the trainee wants

[elmet_training]

To be a good trainer I believe you need years of experience driving trucks and have the natural ability to communicate to the trainee in a constructive way also be of a patient manner and be confident of what you teach.

I have now been an instructor for 8 years previously I had been driving trucks and plant machinery in a multitude of industries, I also was a union steward. Which was a good education in people skills.

When I was offered a job as a instructor I was unsure if I would be cut out to do the job. After a few days instructor training I was let loose with my first trainee, without being big headed I took to it like a duck to water. My experience of driving trucks and being a union steward which taught me how to communicate and man manage was a great benefit.

In my time I have seen instructors who shout and talk down to their pupils and are also some are stuck up there own ars#s its un-real.

I’m surprised John asked the question if we are needed I only have to think of the first hour of training with most students to come up my with conclusion.

Paul

[general_izd]

Not that I’ve started my lorry tests yet…

When I did my car licence, I learned with my parents and then had a couple of trained lessons before my test.

At the time, I was mostly just grateful they had lined me up a car and were teaching me to drive. It wasn’t until I hit those couple of lessons that I realised how much difference it makes when you are being taught by someone who trains for a living. I got picked up on all sorts of bad habits like coasting in neutral, no push-pull on the steering wheel, palming the steering wheel when doing low speed manovres (in and out of parking spaces), braking to hit zero on the line/back of the queue, accelerating on a slip road before working out if you can actually join the traffic flow.

I was bricking it when it came to test day, because as well as the pressure of the test I had the pressure of knowing I had to remember not to do any of the ‘bad’ things that had become natural. I passed with 2 minors but I was a sweaty nervous mess!

After that, I booked a Pass Plus course and bought a few driving books to make sure I could drive ‘by the book’ and not drive ‘normally’.

So yes, in my limited opinion, being trained by a trainer is very important (especially for someone who wants to learn, rather than just learn to pass).

[gillberry]

Having driven for 30 years now I knew I had bad habits but under the assumption that apart from the size doing my class c wouldn’t be to hard . How wrong I was the vehicles up to and including 7.5tonne that I have driven are so like cars but hgv is a different ball game and you have to get rid of those bad habits and be at test standard . All of this you will find hard to do without instruction from someone who also knows how the tests work and can prepare you . Yes I know I now have to learn and can get away with things now my test is passed but I couldn’t have passed my test without instruction .

[rog]

I was a LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

My story …

I had been an IAM car observer/teacher/advisor for my local group since 1998 and one of the members at that time was looking to recruit a LGV instructor for a company local to me
I was use to sitting in the passenger seat and had a LGV CE licence so he thought I would make a good candidate

My ‘training’ consisted of a morning out with him so he could show me the basics and then I was paired up with the other new instructor and we were told to take the spare rigid and to go and drive/learn the Northampton test routes for the rest of the week as all the testing was done from Weedon

During that week I found the layby on the A45 where all the other trainers stopped and asked them for their input on various aspects

Week 2 - I got 2 trainees on a rigid and at the end of that week both passed first time with virtually no input from the LGV school

One thing I did which seemed to amaze the other instructors was to go to the examiners office and ask for advice - now that was invaluable and the examiners were definitely pleased to help me out- thanks Dave Clive and Terry

Perhaps it depends on the individual as to how much training they have to become an instructor

[juddian]

I suspect a good driver could teach a new driver how to drive a lorry properly in an old fashioned way, maybe even result in a more competent lorry driver in the real world of lorrying than an instructor teaching someone to pass the test…in the time frame available.

However the chances of either the trainee, or the unqualified trainer him/herself, actually passing a test following some 30 year service lorry drivers not so gentle cussing and bollocking of some young trainee would be debatable, a myriad of bad habits and corner cutting being passed on.

Thing is, the current short training times don’t leave much time for familiarisation, intensive non test type manoeuvering and vehicle handling techniques which featured heavily in my course.
When i took my test the course was 10 days, and in real terms more expensive than currently, my ten day course and test cost me IIRC between three and four hundred pounds in 1976, however that was straight for class 1 artic licence as was the norm at the time.

Freely admit i wouldn’t fancy taking my test again, oooh no.

[toshtwentythree]

I am a taxi driver ( 15 years). I also ride motorbikes (10 years). Last week i had 16 hrs training ( class 2). The first day ( 4 hrs ) the instructor just let me do what I wanted, He sat back completely relaxed and just let me get to know the truck. He got to know me and I got to know him, He asked questions about me, my driving, my history and what I thought I was doing wrong whilst driving the truck… I asked him "how do I do this and that and that and so on …
I walked away a happy man, I was relaxed about driving a ““big rig””, The day was a success.
Day 2…Holy Cow , have I got a lot to learn…Mirrors, mirrors, mirrors Ohh and just in case I forgot, MIRRORS. Speed, The truck says how fast it needs to be when entering a roundabout, Gears, Always, Always be in the right gear to brake and accelerate when you need it… Lastly, Your rear wheels…Them bloody things love to go near the kerb ALL THE TIME…Yep I walked away form day two knacker but still buzzing, what a great day…
Day 3…Mirrors, brakes, speed, rear tyres…AGAIN…AGAIN…AGAIN. and one little thing thrown in for good measure, Handbrake hill start …That was just hilarious… It was like I never drove a car before…Walked away from day 3 frustrated as hell, I spent the night in bed going over and over what i had done wrong throughout the day, analysing and digesting every scenario so I could better understand what went wrong
Day 4… My instructor asked questions that I though were stupid and had no relevance to me or driving …After 10 minutes of driving and him telling me what I should do, how to do it easier and just plain old …slow the hell down…It clicked…It really clicked… The “big rig” has shrunk, …Its so muck shorted than before. Its no where near as wide as before and the steering wheel IS connected to the front wheels after all… My test was booked for last Wednesday but was cancelled due to “frost and ice” so im waiting for this Thursday because I WILL pass my test…
So going back to the OP question…My instructor charges £140 for 4 hrs ( one day)… He is worth every penny and then some. There is no way on earth that just any old driver can teach the psychological side of lgv…Teaching the basics yeah no prob’s…But getting the “big rig” to shrink…bloody amazing

[freight_dog]

Absolutely trainers for LGV category are needed, and good trainers who’s gift is training, not just being a lorry driver. Lorry drivers imparting knowledge next to a trainee can vary from ok to the worse thing imaginable but more than often, without training in teaching someone, probably the latter.

Effective training requires application of quite an in depth appreciation of psychology to gain the best out of an individual. Individual being the operative word. Every person is different, requiring a dynamic approach to their needs to facilitate the best performance. Standard line drivers quite simply lack this training/and ability to teach.

[tockwith_training]

Loving the post LGVTrainer,

Heck I passed my test in 2001, waited until 2004 until I was ‘legal’ to instruct, no instructor course and no babysitter in the cab but my first customer to train passed on his first attempt with me a spotty almost teenager teaching him! Now i’m 11 or so years older I might well know a lot more but frankly I don’t think it always helps trainees pass. It might have helped that my grandfather set up http://www.TockwithTraining.co.uk in 1971 and being around the company fixing trucks are some of my earliest memories.

I believe that instructors, don’t become an instructors over time, its there from the start or not, but time/mentoring does help develop competence that you really need when dealing with customers that are not natural drivers, those who need careful instruction. A very competent driver needs little instruction the pass the test, where as those who are not need an awful lot. The personality of the instructor is so vital and I doubt there is a perfect instructor that will suit everyone, but if they enjoy the job then the trainee will also enjoy learning, and a happy learner leads to success!

Also, one thing I notice of other instructors is ‘fail bashing’, which is when an instructor says you will ‘fail for that’ or relay a story of a fail, thinking the trainee wants to hear it, however it only builds up fear of the test. I was always taught never mention the ‘f word’, obviously f for fail, I believe reducing the fear of failure is most important skill a good instructor should develop, the rest is quite simple, mirrors, speed etc.

Ways of reducing the fear factor:
‘would i fail for that?’ =

‘your not on your test yet and if you were that good already you would have wasted your money on x days training, plenty of time left yet to get it right.’
or
‘do you think you would pass someone who did that if you were the examiner?’
or
‘well i’m not your driving examiner, but do you think you could do it better next time?’
or
‘do you know why you made that mistake? can you avoid it next time?’

You get the idea, its like being a politician, just sit on the fence, reword the question and send it right back at the trainee, feed their independence not their worries! Being a parent has taught me more about teaching than any instructional course could ever do, now trainees are not like children in the normal sense but we all respond the same to teaching, factoring in our different learning styles (mine are visual and logical), whether we are 6 or 60 years old. How an instructor conducts himself is vital if he/she is to lead them to success, sometimes the problem isn’t the trainee its the instructor! All instructors should find out at the beginning of the training what learning style the trainee has, it might save a lot of problems, see this link http://www.learning-styles-online.com/overview/ bare in mind that most instructors will teach you in their learning style, does this suit you? If not you will be teaching yourself anyway!

So, I think a ‘mate’ could get a good driver through the test, but only if they are a ‘wannabe’ instructor with good knowledge of the driving test, otherwise its the blind leading the blind.