stimpy:
Have any of you drivers tried the new new DAF CF that rates your driving performance as a percentage on the screen in front of you as you are driving. Rating you for braking efficiency and anticipation. It is called DPA I believe.
We have it fitted to all our 64 plate units and it is complete nonsense.
You CANNOT USE THE BRAKES at all and encourages you to use the exhaust brake only and changing down the gears accordingly.
The drivers find themselves concentrating on the actual braking and not the situation ahead.
Discuss that then!!!
Anything which pushes the idea of ( much ) more use of engine braking can only be a good thing.Going by the retarder video on the hill crash topic and the above seems to suggest that the training establishment idea of brakes to slow gears to go here isn’t shared by the Continentals like the Americans.
Juddian:
Funnily enough Stimpy my mate who i’ve worked with and been mates with since 1986 had his first day out in one and i’m only surprised the phone didn’t melt such was the stream of invective that came over the airwaves about the heap.
Apparently its cut down so much as to be dangerous, down to 25 mph on motorway hills, and already showing up low level cat warnings, so it’s looking good for the future.
Hope no one tries to explain to him where he’s going wrong should his dash score be low, they’d better have some ear defenders and hard hat on.
However, i don’t have a problem with using gears and engine braking for slowing down, i do that all the time and try my hardest not to use the brakes at all except to come to a stop.
Its interesting just how often some tackle is going in for relines, and annoying when i come back on shift to see thick black dust round the wheels…let alone itemising the fresh damage which is there without fail.
All he has to do is about 3 miles from the yard, go into the settings, reset it, then drive carefully back, "heypresto"instant high score!!!
All he has to do is about 3 miles from the yard, go into the settings, reset it, then drive carefully back, "heypresto"instant high score!!!
He won’t give a monkeys about the score, no more than i do when the trainer (like all non productive staff, dreaming up ■■■■■■■■ to keep 'em busy and in a nice cushy number) mentions idling, last time i looked the cupful of fuel required for warm up cool down was quite a bit cheaper than the unecessary replacement of a twin turbo set up, plus down time, plus possible recovery.
Driving carefully is what he does best always been the same, he won’t need to hide any of that, it’s getting enough power out the strangled heap of junk to move along at normal safe progress that seems to be the problem…these new lorries are the dogs danglies…the makers reckon…
Saviem touched upon the real issue with modern lorries, namely the reason that they are built in the manner they are.
Incompetent bureaucrats and fleet engineers with no real world experience.
This lot sit in their corner offices reading studies of computer simulation of the real world and implement new legislation or specifications based on what they see.
All in the name of safety or saving the planet and they all get together and give each other big pats on the back.
Meanwhile those of us who have to put their ideas into practice out in the real world sit here shaking our heads in dismay.
What the world needs is people to stand up during these meetings and say “stop talking ■■■■■■■■ and stop trying to justify your non existent role in life” but alas, the indoctrination of the people has led us into today’s society where you can’t tell it as it is, just in case you hurt someone’s feelings.
newmercman:
Saviem touched upon the real issue with modern lorries, namely the reason that they are built in the manner they are.
Incompetent bureaucrats and fleet engineers with no real world experience.
This lot sit in their corner offices reading studies of computer simulation of the real world and implement new legislation or specifications based on what they see.
All in the name of safety or saving the planet and they all get together and give each other big pats on the back
To be fair most of the control freak thinking seems to be a continuous ever increasing feature of the EU regulations.
While in general the rest of the English speaking world still seems to be able to provide drivers with something closer to a good old school truck at least regards a decent constant mesh manual box and engine brake.Ironically I’d guess that things would have all turned out differently if we’d have stayed/got out of the EEC in 1973/5.
newmercman:
Saviem touched upon the real issue with modern lorries, namely the reason that they are built in the manner they are.
Incompetent bureaucrats and fleet engineers with no real world experience.
This lot sit in their corner offices reading studies of computer simulation of the real world and implement new legislation or specifications based on what they see.
All in the name of safety or saving the planet and they all get together and give each other big pats on the back
To be fair most of the control freak thinking seems to be a continuous ever increasing feature of the EU regulations.
While in general the rest of the English speaking world still seems to be able to provide drivers with something closer to a good old school truck at least regards a decent constant mesh manual box and engine brake.Ironically I’d guess that things would have all turned out differently if we’d have stayed/got out of the EEC in 1973/5.
newmercman:
Saviem touched upon the real issue with modern lorries, namely the reason that they are built in the manner they are.
Incompetent bureaucrats and fleet engineers with no real world experience.
This lot sit in their corner offices reading studies of computer simulation of the real world and implement new legislation or specifications based on what they see.
All in the name of safety or saving the planet and they all get together and give each other big pats on the back
To be fair most of the control freak thinking seems to be a continuous ever increasing feature of the EU regulations.
While in general the rest of the English speaking world still seems to be able to provide drivers with something closer to a good old school truck at least regards a decent constant mesh manual box and engine brake.Ironically I’d guess that things would have all turned out differently if we’d have stayed/got out of the EEC in 1973/5.
.
Difficult to say, really: we wouldn’t have been sending our lorries to Oz, Kiwi, Yankiland etc, but to Europe where we’d still have needed to conform to EEC regs, especially as in those days we were still manufacturing and exporting lorries. Perhaps, in your scenario, we’d have developed a dual system with conservatively built domestic vehicles and Euro-friendly trucks for over the water. Come to think of it, isn’t that exactly what we did during the years when the Europe we signed up for in '74 was our partner? Isn’t it this latter version of EU that has mission crept? Robert
robert1952:
Difficult to say, really: we wouldn’t have been sending our lorries to Oz, Kiwi, Yankiland etc, but to Europe where we’d still have needed to conform to EEC regs, especially as in those days we were still manufacturing and exporting lorries. Perhaps, in your scenario, we’d have developed a dual system with conservatively built domestic vehicles and Euro-friendly trucks for over the water. Come to think of it, isn’t that exactly what we did during the years when the Europe we signed up for in '74 was our partner? Isn’t it this latter version of EU that has mission crept? Robert
I was looking at it from the point of view that firstly the domestic market was worth more than the Euro one combined.Especially to the domestic manufacturers.Therefore logically ours foreseeably had more to gain in a protected isolationist trading environment than what we ended up with in the form of an open door trading policy and resulting import invasion.Ironically much of that invasion involving the Scandinavians with their inbuilt advantage of a war debt free economy and who weren’t even members of the EEC at the time in question.
Where that all matters to this discussion is that our industry’s future was realistically based on the typical ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination wether it be Leyland or the small independent ‘assemblers’ like ERF.While it seems obvious that the EU type approval system,which sooner or later was obviously in the business of killing off that combination,was technically there from day 1 of our entry and just phased in gradually to divert attention from the obvious implications which that had regards the future of that typical Brit formula.The logical progression of the preferred Euro choice of in house Euro engines and synchro drivelines obviously being tailor made to suit the direction which the Germans and Scandinavians were going in.The result being that at least while that Kiwi market truck can still be specced as closely as makes not much if any difference to that old school Brit formula and any diffrence probably being an improvement in many respects,that UK market truck is now exactly what the EEC/EU set out to do in making it Euro spec German/Scandinavian take it or leave it.
As opposed to UK spec choice being exactly the same as that Kiwi market truck with its fuller 18 speed option and Jake to brake that typically US/Oz/Kiwi spec engine option,on a basis of take it or leave it unless you want to pay a massive import tarriff for the Euro/Scandinavian box.
In which case it is my bet that modern day generations of Brit drivers would be driving the modern day version of the ERF European.Instead of the automated/synchro Euro machine which has been designed on the basis of appealing to the same type of ‘driver’ who would have preferred the Volvo or Merc in the day.
robert1952:
Difficult to say, really: we wouldn’t have been sending our lorries to Oz, Kiwi, Yankiland etc, but to Europe where we’d still have needed to conform to EEC regs, especially as in those days we were still manufacturing and exporting lorries. Perhaps, in your scenario, we’d have developed a dual system with conservatively built domestic vehicles and Euro-friendly trucks for over the water. Come to think of it, isn’t that exactly what we did during the years when the Europe we signed up for in '74 was our partner? Isn’t it this latter version of EU that has mission crept? Robert
I was looking at it from the point of view that firstly the domestic market was worth more than the Euro one combined.Especially to the domestic manufacturers.Therefore logically ours foreseeably had more to gain in a protected isolationist trading environment than what we ended up with in the form of an open door trading policy and resulting import invasion.Ironically much of that invasion involving the Scandinavians with their inbuilt advantage of a war debt free economy and who weren’t even members of the EEC at the time in question.
Where that all matters to this discussion is that our industry’s future was realistically based on the typical ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination wether it be Leyland or the small independent ‘assemblers’ like ERF.While it seems obvious that the EU type approval system,which sooner or later was obviously in the business of killing off that combination,was technically there from day 1 of our entry and just phased in gradually to divert attention from the obvious implications which that had regards the future of that typical Brit formula.The logical progression of the preferred Euro choice of in house Euro engines and synchro drivelines obviously being tailor made to suit the direction which the Germans and Scandinavians were going in.The result being that at least while that Kiwi market truck can still be specced as closely as makes not much if any difference to that old school Brit formula and any diffrence probably being an improvement in many respects,that UK market truck is now exactly what the EEC/EU set out to do in making it Euro spec German/Scandinavian take it or leave it.
As opposed to UK spec choice being exactly the same as that Kiwi market truck with its fuller 18 speed option and Jake to brake that typically US/Oz/Kiwi spec engine option,on a basis of take it or leave it unless you want to pay a massive import tarriff for the Euro/Scandinavian box.
In which case it is my bet that modern day generations of Brit drivers would be driving the modern day version of the ERF European.Instead of the automated/synchro Euro machine which has been designed on the basis of appealing to the same type of ‘driver’ who would have preferred the Volvo or Merc in the day.
Well I’m with you all the way in your last two paragraphs. The strange thing is that although we Brits didn’t take over the Continent with our borrowed ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ driveline, the Continent was nonetheless significantly influenced - not necessarily by Britain but by US as well. Holland, Belgium and France in particular, had a strong Fuller transmission following. In Germany too, there was sufficient demand that Bussing, MAN and even Mercedes offered optional Fuller transmissions even as late as the MAN F90 range. We have to remember that regardless of the drive-line preferences shared by the likes of you, CF, and me, the great unwashed British commercial driving public voted with their feet. I still believe that Brits followed fashions as well as economic trends and were woo’d by badges and clever advertising and good back-up. A cleverer man than me might argue that in 1975 an ERF ‘European’ was just as good as a Scania 140 and that the lack of back-up down the road didn’t make any difference because once you were out of the EEC it didn’t make any odds: in Istanbul you were more or less on your own. Robert
robert1952:
Well I’m with you all the way in your last two paragraphs. The strange thing is that although we Brits didn’t take over the Continent with our borrowed ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ driveline, the Continent was nonetheless significantly influenced - not necessarily by Britain but by US as well. Holland, Belgium and France in particular, had a strong Fuller transmission following. In Germany too, there was sufficient demand that Bussing, MAN and even Mercedes offered optional Fuller transmissions even as late as the MAN F90 range. We have to remember that regardless of the drive-line preferences shared by the likes of you, CF, and me, the great unwashed British commercial driving public voted with their feet. I still believe that Brits followed fashions as well as economic trends and were woo’d by badges and clever advertising and good back-up. A cleverer man than me might argue that in 1975 an ERF ‘European’ was just as good as a Scania 140 and that the lack of back-up down the road didn’t make any difference because once you were out of the EEC it didn’t make any odds: in Istanbul you were more or less on your own. Robert
I’d guess that in the case of the Fuller v synchro ( inevitably leading to automated ) battle it was probably not as clear cut as buyers/drivers in Europe and especially here as having voted in any big way for one side or the other.However it is no coincidence that the EU move away from maintaining type approval of ■■■■■■■ and Fuller in Europe was obviously of great help to the Euro/Scandinavian in house engine and synchro box manufacturing operations while damaging any chance of the continuation of our domestic,outsourced US,■■■■■■■ and Fuller manufacturing operations and with it the effective end of our domestic truck manufacturing capability with that inextricable ■■■■■■■ and Fuller link.History suggests that the decisions in question weren’t taken over night and obviously involved a planned long term phasing towards where we are now in which British drivers like any other Euro drivers couldn’t now drive what we’d ( rightly ) regard as the ‘right’ trucks even if they wanted to.Unlike their counterparts in the rest of the English speaking world.All being part of the planned rundown of our manufacturing capability and handing the initiative to the Euro/Scandinavian etc invasion.IE I don’t think it was any coincidence or majority driver choice.The issue now being more that of the new generations of drivers here knowing nothing different having ended up at the end of a long planned chain of events of which our generations saw the start of.
As for me I’m grateful that I’m old enough to have at least been able to enjoy the last of the really ‘old school’ vehicles but unfortunately still feel that I missed out on probably the greatest era in UK trucks and their use by around 10 years.In which case given the choice between that ERF European or its Scandinavian alternative on that international job in the mid 1970’s I’d have taken the ERF every time but I want it fitted with a 13 speed fuller and I want it in 6x4 rigid drawbar configuration.
newmercman:
Saviem touched upon the real issue with modern lorries, namely the reason that they are built in the manner they are.
Incompetent bureaucrats and fleet engineers with no real world experience.
This lot sit in their corner offices reading studies of computer simulation of the real world and implement new legislation or specifications based on what they see.
All in the name of safety or saving the planet and they all get together and give each other big pats on the back.
Meanwhile those of us who have to put their ideas into practice out in the real world sit here shaking our heads in dismay.
What the world needs is people to stand up during these meetings and say “stop talking ■■■■■■■■ and stop trying to justify your non existent role in life” but alas, the indoctrination of the people has led us into today’s society where you can’t tell it as it is, just in case you hurt someone’s feelings.
It’s madness, total madness.
It’s not only in our particular field of “expertise”. I was reading on Sunday about a huge proposed offshore windfarm on the Dogger Bank that will cost £billions in government subsidies and contriubute a minimal quantity of electricity due to the intermittant nature of wind, and will require conventional generating power stations for back-up when the wind isn’t blowing. Then on the TV news last night there were Rifkind and Straw defending themselves asfter being “stung” offering their services for cash payments, their arrogance was breathtaking and they are so far up their own backsides. It is madness that we’ve let people of this ilk dictate their own private agendas.Are they idiots, or is Joe Public the idiot for putting up with it all?
Wind farms ffs, what is that if it’s not the perfect pull the wool over the public’s eye trick, highly visible and “free” energy, except the energy required in their manufacture and transportation will never be covered by the wind turbines.
It’s a bit like the modern lorry with all its save the crested newt exhaust treatment. My new lorry has roughly $40,000 of crap fitted to it in the name of saving the planet and yet it causes my engine to be less efficient than it would be if we’re not strangled by excessive back pressure, inefficient combustion due to the introduction of dirty hot exhaust gasses when it needs clean cold air to work properly, then we have the SCR system that requires another fluid injected into the exhaust.
Each of these systems require manufacturing and to do that raw materials need collecting from source (which requires energy) then transported to production facilities (more energy) produced (energy again) transported to a holding warehouse (yet more energy) and finally delivered JIT to the truck assembly line.
The same steps are required for the ad blue and that also adds packaging into the mix which also requires the same steps from raw materials to finished product.
I know the new lorries have cleaner exhausts now, but add in all the extra energy consumed in getting there and I would bet good money that the total amount of nastiness in the skies has increased.
But that’s what we’re looking at and it will get much worse as regulations tighten and our lorries become obsolete in a few short years.
The manufacturers, the energy companies and the financial institutions will earn a bloody fortune from it all and their puppet governments will all be getting directorships and back handers to ensure that they keep moving the goal posts so we have no choice but to buy new lorries every few years.
newmercman:
Saviem touched upon the real issue with modern lorries,
To be fair most of the control freak thinking seems to be a continuous ever increasing feature of the EU regulations…While in general the rest of the English speaking world still seems to be able to provide drivers with something closer to a good old school truck at least regards a decent constant mesh manual box and engine brake
Well, not so much. Yes the Yank iron is here with 3 pedals and a lever but much of the rest is European and Japanese. Both the latter have gone pretty much electronics-a-go-go for everything, which is all very well if it works as intended and provided its entire working life requires nothing more than an attendant to press the right levers and buttons. Regrettably - and predictably - the Jap versions of automated manual transmissions are without exception utter crap (the ones I’ve driven anyway).
Take the one I drove today - an Isuzu less than 6 months old, whereas the tired old Hino with 3 pedals and a gear lever I usually drive is well over a decade old. This newfangled thing seemed to me the worst of three worlds:
it’s not a proper manual so I couldn’t skip shift or take off downhill in 3rd (or 4th or whatever), and its “brain” wouldn’t let me go down a cog if it thought it knew better. If I left it to its own devices it would hold high gears way longer than was appropriate.
nor is it a proper automatic with a torque converter and a gear lockout, that (when set up properly) help make the most of an engine’s power and torque characteristics.
nor is it a double-clutch affair, and changes (whether in ‘auto’ setting or me knocking the lever about) took eons.
The run I did today involved climbing quite a few hills out west of Sydney. This new thing trundled up the same hills slower than the old dunger, even though it had less load on, partly because the engine has neither torque nor power in the right places, partly because the gearchange is so woefully slow. And it chewed up more fuel in the process too.
So given all that (and many other things besides, like the fact the engine is so quiet I couldn’t hear what it was doing on a hill - accelerating, holding or slowing down), I have to ask: where’s the progress?
PS don’t start me on the Euro5+ etc. gubbins that ■■■■ up time, power and fuel efficiency (and money), all in the name of an empty gesture (true environmentalists are no more fooled by this nonsense than you lot are).
The yank iron is all going European anyway, Volvo, well say no more, Freightliner and Mercedes Benz are one and the same, the complete driveline is now Daimler. Mack are just rebranded Volvo. Paccar engines and Eaton autoshifts are almost standard in Pete and KW now. The ■■■■■■■ ISX is available as an option in everything but the Mack, but they are dreadfully unreliable and the vertically integrated engines have no Jacobs Brakes, so Geoffrey it looks like you need a time machine mate, the American dream is no more…
To go back to the original question: are modern trucks actually ‘driver unfriendly’?
I think part of the answer lies in the definition of “driver”. If by that we mean someone who is “trained” in the modern school and who knows which button or lever to press at what point and thinks nothing of it when the vehicle fails to carry out a certain routine, and who is isolated from vibration, noise and excessive particulate emissions and who can appreciate all manner of electronic assistance, then “no”.
If, on the other hand, by “driver” we mean someone who’s either (a) of the old school or (b) younger but deeply interested in what his wagon does and why, and how they can do a better job, then “yes”. As an “old school” driver I find these new things not just unfriendly but obstructive: they actually prevent someone with half a brain, a fair bit of nous and an experienced eye from doing their job effectively and efficiently.
Sorry, I keep thinking of things after I’ve posted…
One other issue (that others may have touched on, TBH I haven’t read every post in this thread…)
The quieter and more isolated cabs become, and the more automated they are, the less there is for the driver to concentrate on. I can’t speak for the younger folk taking up a life behind the wheel, but for me driving a wagon ought to be a job that demands your full attention and involvement all the time. Leaving aside how effectively it does it, if the tool you’re using does half or more of your job for you in complete comfort and isolation, is it any wonder the driver’s attention starts to wander? I’m not arguing that we should all go back to the days of draughty cabs, gearchanges that would rip your arm clean off if you got it wrong and bellowing Leyland 0.680s - they were simply hard work and just as likely to lead to drivers losing concentration through exhaustion. What I’m suggesting is that anyone who calls themselves a professional driver needsfeedback from the vehicle, feedback that is as unencumbered (or filtered) by technology as possible.
There is a direct parallel with modern cars - the fact is that car drivers are worse now than they ever were, largely because of the amount of technology even a small modern car comes with - umpteen airbags, skid avoidance, brake assistance, stability control, rear and side radar, power this, that and the other. Remove all that, fit cardboard doors (like the original Mini) and put a blasted great spike in the middle of the steering wheel instead of an airbag and you watch how quickly people start to drive like their lives depended on it…
ParkRoyal2100:
To go back to the original question: are modern trucks actually ‘driver unfriendly’?
I think part of the answer lies in the definition of “driver”. If by that we mean someone who is “trained” in the modern school and who knows which button or lever to press at what point and thinks nothing of it when the vehicle fails to carry out a certain routine, and who is isolated from vibration, noise and excessive particulate emissions and who can appreciate all manner of electronic assistance, then “no”.
If, on the other hand, by “driver” we mean someone who’s either (a) of the old school or (b) younger but deeply interested in what his wagon does and why, and how they can do a better job, then “yes”. As an “old school” driver I find these new things not just unfriendly but obstructive: they actually prevent someone with half a brain, a fair bit of nous and an experienced eye from doing their job effectively and efficiently.
Gingerfold, you’re in danger of opening up the worlds longest rant there.
Suffice to say, the electorate deserve everything that we’ve received and everything we have coming to us, from a destroyed manufacturing economy leading us into a service economy based on ever increasing borrowing and spiralling national debt…
…you try running a house on the basis that each member of it pays the other for their services and buys everything in, and the landlords (increasing in number every year) tax every transaction and each year add another layer of drones that need funding and sub divide a room very year and allow someone from outside to move in and live for free, all this without any outside income and having to pay another set of landlords the current landlords decided to subjucate us (who make the rules up as they go along) to, increasing fees for being part of their club to boot…and see how long it all lasts on borrowed money…
…hope you can see the parallels for thats where our country has gone when you come right down to it.
Sorry for this short, for me, diversion into political ■■■■■■■■, but your last sentence struck a chord.
Will the last person in the country with the ability to think for themselves please turn the subsidized lights out before they leave.
Edit…this is all very strange the post above i have been trying to submit for more than an hour, error 404, but it was much longer and involved a certain former Prime Minister now pontificating again which the system would not allow me to submit, the only way i’ve got this far is to log on via a proxy server and edit the post drastically…must be an election on the way.
Didn’t a motley crew of politicians recently demonstrate on a deserted (apart from coppers minders snipers photographers) street about the importance of free speech.
Jack Straw has just been awarded a directorship of a company he helped win a 75million contract by lobbying his mates in Parliament, it’s downright criminal, yet more people will have read and talked about who killed Lucy Beale.
