I will begin by writing that this question is prompted by the horrendous and absolutely tragic fatal accident that occured in Bath earlier this week, and I offer my deep sympathy and condolences to families and loved ones of those involved. In the past I have personally had to attend an inquest after one of my drivers was involved in a fatality, (he was exonerated of all blame) but the trauma for the driver and victim’s relatives was deep and raw.
There is a thread about the accident at Bath on The UK Profressional Drivers Forum at this site that discusses many aspects of this tragedy, but until the facts of the case are established everyone has their own ideas, speculation, and theories. Some of these might be relevant to this thread if it gets going.
Returning to my original question and it is one that is often discussed in the office with drivers and ex-drivers of a certain vintage. I’m sure that none of us would want to see a return to the spartan cabbed, underpowered and underbraked lorries of 40, or 50 years ago, but have modern designs, and the technology incorporated into today’s trucks (and those of the last 15 years or so) moved thing too far away from what is a fundamental tool to move goods. My contention is that a modern truck with its well insulated, quiet, warm cab, powerful engine, air suspension, good brakes, and a host of other refinements, makes it impossible for a driver to get a ‘feel’ for the vehicle, its loading, and how it is handling, You can also include speed limiters, and cruise control. Add into the mix, traffic conditions, timed deliveries, the “green agenda” and general pressure to get the job done within a certain number of driving and duty hours. I’m sure that some of you will have your own ideas and thoughts to contribute.
I think all modern vehicles give you a false sense of security, like many of us who have experienced the difference in motors over the years will understand what i mean… this mixed with overconfident drivers and risk takers is a recipe for disaster
Should you run to the roads speed limit all of the time so you dont ■■■■ other drivers off by holding them up?? or should you take into account of what you are carrying and how it reacts, road and weather conditions etc and stay alive!
We all make mistakes and the unfortunate ones of us who have had an accident in what ever vehicle get to appreciate the destructive force they have…
One thing that is a good move in my eyes is that when you take your test now the motor is part loaded… I remember the shock of taking out my first fully loaded 8 legger of how it handled, totally different to when empty like on my test… I thought there was something wrong with it as my arse was gripping the seat with the roll of the body
How things have changed since I was a shunter at Corby steel works driving an A series ERF when I was 16 years old
I wouldnt want to go back and have to part with my Volvo I shift tho…Life is good
Well I think the 90 km speed limit is a menace to all road users , not only does it (imho) add to driver fatigue but it also contributes to road congestion. Like I mentioned on another thread the simple dipstick is worth its weight in gold compared with a gauge in the cab that relies on a sensor , one of many that malfunction on a regular basis. Again imho the almost standardisation of auto boxes are something else that I`m not a fan of but seem to be everywhere now. I think a speed limit of 100 km/h would eradicate the bunching because not all drivers want to drive at that speed all day but it would be useful for overtaking , some companies would prefer the 90 km/h or lower limit in the name of fuel consumption and why not
Thread is in danged of poor workman blaming his tools.
There may be an age related issue, those that started driving on cross ply tyres and with no electronic get out of jail gadgets may have a bit more understanding of how fast things can get out of shape.
That said it is in my view a big stretch to consider the technology and comfort in modern trucks a risk factor, I would sooner look at training, weight is the thing that will take the unaware by surprise.
show how out of touch I am did not know you could get hgv at 19, and when I got mine many years ago noone would give you a job as you had no experience, and your right about the test with part load I passed on an old d series with vey short trailer when I first had a fully loaded 40 footer out it was tight bum cheek time but in those days any driver would help you or give you good advice, that was a terrible accident though and condolencses indeed to the families, fredm
That is well said Bazstan. The right approach is awareness of road conditions, weight and the performance of the thing you’re sitting in. Never push the limit. A mixture of “wise head on young shoulders” Jim.
one time i had a tilt on from over the water. god knows who had loaded it. it may have been loaded with a 3 axle unit under
the trailer. god it was heavy on the pin. i had a J reg 2 axle ERF with a 180 in her. this load was a nightmare because it was so heavy on the front.
Saying this it did let me know to go very steady on corners and roundabouts…if i d of had air suspension the airbags would have shot the trailer
up and maybe on the first roundabout i d have been on my side. so although you get the ride on air and less road ware plus the rattling ,remember
that lads… but for safety springs every time. but look at the maintenance. its very hard to find a level that fits the bill for everyone.
John
I am of the opinion that modern trucks are very driver friendly indeed. When I started driving lorries we only had servo brakes and you soon learnt that hot brakes meant brake fade and that was a drivers worst fear. My first trips to the continent was in an old AEC Mandator and crossing the Alps and the Pyraneese was horendous as the brakes became red hot in a very short time and became useless until you could stop and cool them down. Even going over the old Shap was not for the faint hearted as any old driver will know. Then there came the more modern trucks such as the Scania and Volvo etc. I was always told by older drivers when I was young that you came down a hill or mountain the same speed as you would go up it and that was very sound advice. In these advanced vehicles I was able to cross for example Mont Blanc fully freighted without the use of my footbrake at all,solely on the use of the exhaust brake and being in the correct gear. That is what I call ‘driver friendly’. I am retired(5 years) after 43 years on the road and have seen so many changes in that time. The only thing that I know has not changed is the fact that there is no short cut to experience. I still believe in working your way through the different weights and sizes of vehicle before being let loose on public roads in a fully freighted H.G.V.
The idea of brakes to slow gears to go and automated transmissions are all there to pander to exactly the type of driver training failings that are foreseeably likely to lead to the ‘issues’ in question.I think there’s arguably no substitute for 1980’s technology in the form of a manual box, well maintained drum brakes and compulsory fitment of jake ( as opposed to the less able exhaust ) engine braking and correct driver training in how to use them.
Although having said that discs obviously,theoretically,have more capacity to shed heat than drums.However even they still wouldn’t provide the type type of non existent margins that the deluded brakes to slow gears to go doctrine ‘imagines’.
May I ask, do automatic trucks have any engine braking? I don’t mean exhaust brakes or similar, but a manual lock to lock the transmission in a certain gear to allow the engine to hold the vehicle back like you could/would do with a manual vehicle? Does the Torque converter lock?
Clunk:
May I ask, do automatic trucks have any engine braking? I don’t mean exhaust brakes or similar, but a manual lock to lock the transmission in a certain gear to allow the engine to hold the vehicle back like you could/would do with a manual vehicle? Does the Torque converter lock?
Torque converter type transmissions can provide a degree of hydraulic lock up on the over run when used with manual selection of the lower gears.While later ones are designed to mechanically lock up to provide engine braking together with some other high tech auto downshift features like inclinometers and working with Jake or retarder type braking at least in the North American environment.From experience I know that even the old 1970’s Allison auto/semi auto transmissions used in specialist types provided a reasonable degree of engine braking when used with manual low gear selection.
As for modern day automated manuals using a clutch I think they also have some trick high tech features in that regard probably to the point where drivers who’ve only been instructed on them ( should be ) limited to just being able to drive them and not a proper manual.Which I think has historically been the case with torque converter type autos at least.
IE in all cases they remove the skill set needed for a driver to realistically control a vehicle in the conventional way using a combination of clutch gears and brake control.
Carryfast:
The idea of brakes to slow gears to go and automated transmissions are all there to pander to exactly the type of driver training failings that are foreseeably likely to lead to the ‘issues’ in question.I think there’s arguably no substitute for 1980’s technology in the form of a manual box, well maintained drum brakes and compulsory fitment of jake ( as opposed to the less able exhaust ) engine braking and correct driver training in how to use them.
Although having said that discs obviously,theoretically,have more capacity to shed heat than drums.However even they still wouldn’t provide the type type of non existent margins that the deluded brakes to slow gears to go doctrine ‘imagines’.
Back in 1962 when i would have been about 13 and riding about in lorries at every opportunity my mentor bought a new Seddon 14/4/400, Leyland powered, 6-speed o/d gearbox. it was a lovely lorry for its time and fast… but desperately under-braked with a hydro-vac braking system. It was a very early example of this model, possibly the first into service. One of its regular jobs was two, sometimes three loads of castings daily from David Brown tractors at Leigh to the assembly plant at Meltham, usually loaded to 10 tons load weight, It was pre-M62 days of course. the route was A62 then B6107 down a long descent into Meltham. At the top of the descent the driver would slow right down, select second gear and proceed down the hill at little more than walking pace, just keeping to a constant speed with the brakes. In 1963 a new Leyland Super Comet was bought, full air brakes and vastly superior braking to the Seddon. But the driving technique was exactly the same on the descent into Meltham with the Leyland, second gear at the start of the descent and take your time and look after your brakes. It’s a lesson I’ve never forgotten. Incidentally Seddon changed the spec. of its 14/4/400 models to full air brakes.
gingerfold:
I will begin by writing that this question is prompted by the horrendous and absolutely tragic fatal accident that occured in Bath earlier this week, and I offer my deep sympathy and condolences to families and loved ones of those involved. In the past I have personally had to attend an inquest after one of my drivers was involved in a fatality, (he was exonerated of all blame) but the trauma for the driver and victim’s relatives was deep and raw.
There is a thread about the accident at Bath on The UK Profressional Drivers Forum at this site that discusses many aspects of this tragedy, but until the facts of the case are established everyone has their own ideas, speculation, and theories. Some of these might be relevant to this thread if it gets going.
Returning to my original question and it is one that is often discussed in the office with drivers and ex-drivers of a certain vintage. I’m sure that none of us would want to see a return to the spartan cabbed, underpowered and underbraked lorries of 40, or 50 years ago, but have modern designs, and the technology incorporated into today’s trucks (and those of the last 15 years or so) moved thing too far away from what is a fundamental tool to move goods. My contention is that a modern truck with its well insulated, quiet, warm cab, powerful engine, air suspension, good brakes, and a host of other refinements, makes it impossible for a driver to get a ‘feel’ for the vehicle, its loading, and how it is handling, You can also include speed limiters, and cruise control. Add into the mix, traffic conditions, timed deliveries, the “green agenda” and general pressure to get the job done within a certain number of driving and duty hours. I’m sure that some of you will have your own ideas and thoughts to contribute.
You’ve put it into words far better than i could but I agree with all that you have said. A driver needs to “feel” his vehicle, what it’s doing and how it’s doing. That doesn’t happen with modern vehicles, also, there’s far too much reliance on modern brakes. I see buses and loaded HGV’s on the hills round these parts and the way they are driven frankly I think the drivers are mentally ill. How the hell anybody can ACCELERATE a 14 ton bus (loaded) downhill is beyond me, especially when they MUST stop at the bottom of the hill, failing to stop would “modify” the Town Hall
Yes I know that hill into Dewsbury GOM, my son lives in the town and when visiting I even take it steady in the car, it is a 30 limit anyway but I’ve noticed in the past the locals tend not to worry about that or stopping at the lights at the bottom, brake lights coming on at the last moment. As for the original question, do our modern LGV drivers know any different anyway, its been a long time now since heavy vehicles had all steel springs, seats with no suspension system and only the foot and hand operated secondary brake without any other added stoppers so most likely never had to drive them in all their glory. I’m also not sure some drivers get to know all about the vehicle they drive, they certainly know the BHP of the engines which seems to be an obsession of drivers I’ve never quite understood, yet don’t know some basic facts. My work for the past 16 years has been with the emergency services and although they can’t really be classed as LGV drivers but drivers with an LGV licence, the lack of knowledge is sometimes staggering, at present we are having great difficulty getting them to use retarders correctly, they prefer them switched off especially when on Blues and Two’s and totally rely on the service foot brake which is playing havoc with the pad service life. I even had one driver complain about the driving seat saying it was defective, when I asked how he said it bounces up and down too much and he can’t drive properly with it acting like that! He just didn’t know they were adjustable to his weight. I remember an old Foreman in the Sixties saying ‘Anyone can drive a new vehicle, but not everyone can drive an old one’ maybe this has turned tables today and the vehicles are much cleverer than the drivers! Franky.
We, the missus and I, were driving in our old LDV van near Leyburn last month and a loaded Volvo six wheeler tipper came out of a junction in front of us and headed towards the town past that Cemex quarry and down that steep hill into Leyburn. I lost sight of him going down that hill, he was really motoring and at first I assumed he had turned off somewhere but when I got to the market place I could just see his back end vanishing out on the Bedale road! No way would I have gone down that hill in my van as fast as he did with what appeared to be a full load judging by his tyre scrub on the junction, I remarked to the missus that he had more faith in his brakes than I would have to go at that speed into a busy town centre! Maybe he thinks like a driver I spoke to years ago about brake fade “No worries mate, I have a secondary brake system” and he didn’t believe me when I told him that the secondary system still used the same linings and drums!
No, modern “trucks” (says it all really) are too driver friendly by far.
The driver is too detached from what is going on beneath him, insulated from the sounds and feel of what is actually happening. Many drivers sit above three sets of air suspension - seat, cab & road suspension, each doing their own thing. How can that help your with “seat of the pants” feelings? More like a bouncy castle at times. It is all too easy to go too fast at the wrong time.
Automated gearboxes have much to answer for, they encourage “point & squirt” driving, I hate the things. At least with a gear lever a degree of concentration and awareness of your surroundings is needed, the driver is a little more focussed on the job in hand.
SteveR:
Automated gearboxes have much to answer for, they encourage “point & squirt” driving, I hate the things. At least with a gear lever a degree of concentration and awareness of your surroundings is needed, the driver is a little more focussed on the job in hand.
First and foremost, my heart goes out to the families who lost their loved ones , but also that poor kid must be going through hell aswell.
When he set out that morning he had no idea the day would end as it did, and until the vehicle he was driving has had a thorough examination and results made public then no blame can be apportioned.
Modern vehicles are easier to drive and control than their counterparts of twenty years ago technology really has come on in leaps and bounds since then. How ever I feel that lowering the age limit to 18 to obtain an LGV licence is a wrong move, as is allowing the test to be taken in a vehicle with an automated transmission. I assume the line of thought is most people can drive a manual car so if they do encounter a truck equipped with manual gearbox at same stage in their career they will be able to handle it.
Well as we all know stopping a fully laden truck be it a rigid or artic is a lot different to to stopping the average car and this ethos as mentioned earlier of “gears for going” “brakes for slowing” is also wrong.
My nephew passed his test a few years back and when he came out with me in a truck with manual transmission as I approached a roundabout and slowed to drop a couple of gears he asked what I was doing?
He then told me that they no longer taught this practice in training, and also the gear changing exercise was scrapped also.
I personally think auto boxes in trucks are the worst thing to be introduced to the industry and while some drivers may think they’re the best thing since sliced bread there are many who loathe them. I see drivers roaring up to roundabouts throw everything on at the last minute and generally have no respect for the size of vehicle they’re in control of.
Aspects of the LGV test need addressing for sure, the industry is desperate for new blood but at what cost?
Frankydobo:
My work for the past 16 years has been with the emergency services and although they can’t really be classed as LGV drivers but drivers with an LGV licence, the lack of knowledge is sometimes staggering, at present we are having great difficulty getting them to use retarders correctly, they prefer them switched off especially when on Blues and Two’s and totally rely on the service foot brake which is playing havoc with the pad service life.
I’m assuming you mean fire service ?.In which case that wouldn’t be surprising being that it is probably the perfect storm of probably well into the second or third generation of drivers who know nothing else than torque converter type autos not manuals,which are probably marginal in terms of auto downshifting.Who’ve been taught and brought up on the basis of brakes to slow gears to go.
The best way to fix that problem would be either show them how to use manual selection of lower gears.Or removal of the auto gear shift function to manual only valve bodies like ours were usually fitted with thereby making them semi auto.Then they’ll have to learn how to downshift them to stay in the right gear also thereby creating engine braking on the approach together with speccing jake brakes actuated automatically on accelerator lift.
Having said that earlier generations of fire truck drivers mostly knew how to use a manual box and the finer points of engine braking in this case to drive fast without cooking brakes not just the weight issue.With most,if not all of,our commercial based types being fitted with manuals not autos and usually driven as well by their operators as they were by us on test.IE like a stolen racing car.With notable examples as I’ve referred to elsewhere like 4 wheeler V8 Mandators and V8 Bedford TM’s.
ERF ECX:
First and foremost, my heart goes out to the families who lost their loved ones , but also that poor kid must be going through hell aswell.
When he set out that morning he had no idea the day would end as it did, and until the vehicle he was driving has had a thorough examination and results made public then no blame can be apportioned.
Modern vehicles are easier to drive and control than their counterparts of twenty years ago technology really has come on in leaps and bounds since then. How ever I feel that lowering the age limit to 18 to obtain an LGV licence is a wrong move, as is allowing the test to be taken in a vehicle with an automated transmission. I assume the line of thought is most people can drive a manual car so if they do encounter a truck equipped with manual gearbox at same stage in their career they will be able to handle it.
Well as we all know stopping a fully laden truck be it a rigid or artic is a lot different to to stopping the average car and this ethos as mentioned earlier of “gears for going” “brakes for slowing” is also wrong.
My nephew passed his test a few years back and when he came out with me in a truck with manual transmission as I approached a roundabout and slowed to drop a couple of gears he asked what I was doing?
He then told me that they no longer taught this practice in training, and also the gear changing exercise was scrapped also.
I personally think auto boxes in trucks are the worst thing to be introduced to the industry and while some drivers may think they’re the best thing since sliced bread there are many who loathe them. I see drivers roaring up to roundabouts throw everything on at the last minute and generally have no respect for the size of vehicle they’re in control of.
Aspects of the LGV test need addressing for sure, the industry is desperate for new blood but at what cost?
Yes, yes, a thousand times YES. There’s no substitute for experience and in road haulage that experience MUST be gained by starting from the bottom rung of the ladder and gradually working your way up. That’s how I started. To give an 18/19 year old a big motor and say “off you go” is wrong IMO
