Someone who is employed in the armed forces works from Mon to Fri (example) and then does civvy weekend driving work under EU regs.
Does the time spent in the armed forces job count towards working time for the EU regs.
A civvy working Mon to Fri would usually only be able to drive under EU regs for one day every other weekend in order to get in the required weekly rest - does this apply to the above senario 
ROG:
Someone who is employed in the armed forces works from Mon to Fri (example) and then does civvy weekend driving work under EU regs.Does the time spent in the armed forces job count towards working time for the EU regs.
A civvy working Mon to Fri would usually only be able to drive under EU regs for one day every other weekend in order to get in the required weekly rest - does this apply to the above senario
hi Rog this mite help posted by rikki
trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p … hilit=army
also i think there can’t work if in the army something to do with moonlighting
delboytwo:
also i think there can’t work if in the army something to do with moonlighting
Allowed when on resettlement
delboytwo:
hi Rog this mite help posted by rikki
trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p … hilit=army
not the same senario.
ROG:
delboytwo:
also i think there can’t work if in the army something to do with moonlightingAllowed when on resettlement
delboytwo:
hi Rog this mite help posted by rikki
trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p … hilit=armynot the same senario.
The Del and ROG show is about to start…
Where’s the referee when you need him?? 
Err… Del,… Rikki’s post mentions reservists, whilst ROG’s question err… hmm… wasn’t about reservists 
As I see it, the question relates to normal servicemen/women, cos resettlement wasn’t mentioned either. 
RTFQ 
Whilst the RT(WT)R may not come into it, the requirements to take EU daily and weekly rest certainly do.
Yes, vehicles owned or hired without a driver used for tasks assigned to the armed forces are EU hours exempt, they are also Domestic hours code exempt. If a soldier drives under EU hours, for example working for an agency on a ‘rest day’ from the Army, he still needs to take an EU daily rest that day and a weekly rest.
As we all know, rest = a period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time. Clearly, being at the beck and call of Her Majesty’s’ Armed Forces cannot be counted as rest. Try explaining to the RSM that you’re just popping off his parade square to go down town for a couple of hours
ROG:
Someone who is employed in the armed forces works from Mon to Fri (example) and then does civvy weekend driving work under EU regs.Does the time spent in the armed forces job count towards working time for the EU regs.
A civvy working Mon to Fri would usually only be able to drive under EU regs for one day every other weekend in order to get in the required weekly rest - does this apply to the above senario
in answer to your question the hours worked do not count towards thier 17/26 week average, however the weekly and daily rest need to be complied with if they do any driving within a specified week. all other work must be recorded if any inscope driving is done during the week. but the following week if they dont do any driving they dont need to record thier hours and are free to drive one day the following weekend. (so effectively they can only work one day every other weekend unless they get days off during the week (like i used to do))
a point also to note, if they are employed as a driver in the armed forces and the driving they do is in support of the armed forces they do not need to record this as driving (as any driving done under the “armed forces umbrella” does not require a tacho and no drivers hours are required to be adhered to) however most of the time they do do any driving it is usually kept within the drivers hours regs (4 1/2 then 45 and 9 a day or 10 twice a week) when not on operational duties (ie not in afghan or iraq) due to safety issues and if anything should go wrong.
i hope that explains it all.
reservists are a completely different ball game (as del pointed out in his link to rikki’s post)
A member of the armed forces may carry out (other) work so long as it has no negative impact on the reputation of the service, is lawful and does not affect military duties. Permission is to be sought from the Officer Commanding prior to commencing any other such work. Certain types of employment are not permitted including, but not restricted to, Security (Bouncer/Door Staff) work, Retained Firefighter, Special Constable.
In the case of vocational driving jobs, all aspects of drivers legislation (incl hours) are to be complied with. Whilst the MoD is exempt from drivers hours legislation, it does comply with the spirit of the law*; weekly rest and daily breaks are to be observed, as are daily driving limits. This control of military drivers hours is also applicable to Cat B vehicles.
*This is in place to ensure that, in the event of national emergency, war or short-notice preparation for war, the MoD will not need to seek exemption from drivers hours from the relevant authorities. Training, exercises and planned operations (includes ‘peacekeeping missions’ i.e. Iraq prior to withdrawal) are NOT exempt from drivers hours control.
During resettlement, work may be undertaken but on a ‘work experience’ basis i.e. no pay or reward.
Lee G:
and no drivers hours are required to be adhered to) however most of the time they do do any driving it is usually kept within the drivers hours regs (4 1/2 then 45 and 9 a day or 10 twice a week) when not on operational duties (ie not in afghan or iraq) due to safety issues and if anything should go wrong.
Lee,
You need to have another read of the wonder that is JSP800. Maybe I’m sad - I could quote you some of it from memory if you want.
marcustandy:
Lee G:
and no drivers hours are required to be adhered to) however most of the time they do do any driving it is usually kept within the drivers hours regs (4 1/2 then 45 and 9 a day or 10 twice a week) when not on operational duties (ie not in afghan or iraq) due to safety issues and if anything should go wrong.Lee,
You need to have another read of the wonder that is JSP800. Maybe I’m sad - I could quote you some of it from memory if you want.
i did mean in time of war or emergency, should have made it clearer, sorry 
i would love to have a read of that mate but im too busy pouring boiling tar into my eyes!
im a fully fledged civvy now so if i never see or hear of a jsp again it wont affect my mental state or sleeping pattern
geebee45:
Whilst the RT(WT)R may not come into it, the requirements to take EU daily and weekly rest certainly do.
geebee45:
As we all know, rest = a period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time. Clearly, being at the beck and call of Her Majesty’s’ Armed Forces cannot be counted as rest
Thanks but that poses a question -
As those in the forces are ALWAYS at the beck and call then how can they count anything as time to which a driver may freely dispose
Does that mean that those doing civvy EU regs work whilst still in the forces (resettlement) are doing it illegally
I’ll bet that cannot be answered…
ROG:
geebee45:
Whilst the RT(WT)R may not come into it, the requirements to take EU daily and weekly rest certainly do.geebee45:
As we all know, rest = a period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time. Clearly, being at the beck and call of Her Majesty’s’ Armed Forces cannot be counted as restThanks but that poses a question -
As those in the forces are ALWAYS at the beck and call then how can they count anything as time to which a driver may freely disposeDoes that mean that those doing civvy EU regs work whilst still in the forces (resettlement) are doing it illegally
I’ll bet that cannot be answered…
[/quote]because it isnt very often nowadays you are at 4 hours notice for anything, you wil always have at least 24 hours notice, plus anyone in the forces that takes a driving job while on 24 hours notice is a complete fool.
as for ressettlement, it must be a major incident, like if russia ever invaded the uk or europe, for those on ressetlement to be called up. if you are doing teh on the job training you are more than likely in your last few months of being in the forces, so even if they did call you up again you wouldnt have a great deal of interest…
we can tell you aint been in the foces rog.
plus you have far too much time on your hands to think up daft questions!
Lee G:
we can tell you aint been in the foces rog.plus you have far too much time on your hands to think up daft questions!
Was in forces but only for a year.
Not a daft question as it came up in another thread.
Think about this…
Someone employed f/t in the armed forces is doing their resettlement and is allowed to do some civvy driving under EU regs.
What do they put as working time for the days when they are in their main forces job?
Do they put down the time they actually did something or the time they are on duty?
If duty time then that would be all the time as they can be called into action at any time so are therefore not able to dispose of their time as they wish for EU rest purposes.
Perhaps VOSA don’t care or turn a blind eye to this…
ROG:
What do they put as working time for the days when they are in their main forces job?Do they put down the time they actually did something or the time they are on duty?
If duty time then that would be all the time as they can be called into action at any time so are therefore not able to dispose of their time as they wish for EU rest purposes.
Doesn’t really matter. When doing two jobs you only require daily rest periods for the days you actually drive, not for the days when you only do your main job.
Coffeeholic:
Doesn’t really matter. When doing two jobs you only require daily rest periods for the days you actually drive, not for the days when you only do your main job.
Would I be correct in saying that when not actually doing the civvy driving the armed forces employee is ‘on duty’ and unable to dispose of their time as they see fit?
If that is correct then there would be no time at all for a weekly rest of any sort…
All week to Sat 0600 - on duty/call/unable to dispose of their time as they see fit
Sat 0600 to 1800 drive under eu regs
Sat 1800 to all week - back on duty/call/unable to dispose of their time as they see fit
Where is the weekly rest?
Rog,
I think the ‘paid 24hrs per day when in the army and therefore available 24hrs per day!’ train of thought is a bit outdated. Sure it exists in theory and may be called upon to explain why ‘Soldier A’ can’t go to a family wedding on a certain weekend but in reality, on a day to day basis, almost everything possible will be done to accommodate that individual. Example I have seen - the same day as the wedding is a pre-booked range package in prep for an upcoming op tour. ‘Soldier A’ explains his predicament, his Sergeant Major phones a couple of other units and get’s him booked on one of their range packages in time for tour.
To split it down to the letter of the law, you are probably right but if something like this went as far as court, I’d expect that the magistrate/judge to apply common sense and find accordingly.
The reality is that soldiers today carry out far less 24hrs Guard Duties that at any time previous (mostly civi security guards nowadays), work/trg patterns are based on a five day week maximum, and in many cases a ‘3 and two half days’ week i.e. Mon lunch to Fri lunch, along with increased leave allowances. Don’t think its all gone soft - they’re also pushing out more op tours than for a long time, seeing more ‘action’ than probably WW2 and training harder for each tour than ever before.
If they are in the cycle where they are available for (agency) work, then they are probably at the cushiest part of their (training/ops/recovery/rest/personal development - start again!) routine.
I agree with you fully - my question would be whether VOSA would see it the same way? - if yes, then no more discussion necessary