Another question for Coffeeholic!

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Hi again Coffeeholic,

With regard to your reply to my post on 14th June!

I am still having lots of agro from my transport manager about this. She insists that I worked on 7 consecutive days without a break.

She is absolutely adament that the rest time between 1335 on Sunday 1st June and 2328 on Monday 2nd June cannot be counted as a reduced weekly rest period.

She refers to the VOSA rules (chap 2, Article 8, para 6) “A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.”

Even though she has seen your explanation of how I have kept within the law she just does not believe it!

I don’t really know what to do now, If you are correct then I don’t want this “infringement” on my driving record any more than do I want to look at her smug face for the rest of my working life!

Can I involve VOSA in this dispute? If it turned out they were in favour of the transport manager would I get into any trouble ( fines, suspension of icence etc)?

How do I involve VOSA if I need to?

Any further help would be greatly appreciated :confused:

2

How do I involve VOSA if I need to?

:bulb: :bulb: :bulb: :bulb: :bulb:
E-mail them at Enquiries@vosa.gov.uk and put exactly what you did and ask them if it is legal. :slight_smile:
You should get a reply in a few days which you can show to your boss. :slight_smile:
You do not have to say who you work for :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

3

postie:
Hi again Coffeeholic,

With regard to your reply to my post on 14th June!

THIS ONE?

postie:
I am still having lots of agro from my transport manager about this. She insists that I worked on 7 consecutive days without a break.

She is absolutely adament that the rest time between 1335 on Sunday 1st June and 2328 on Monday 2nd June cannot be counted as a reduced weekly rest period.

Well she is quite simply wrong about that. Of course it can be counted as a weekly rest period as it is longer than 24 hours. What reason does she give for it not counting as a weekly rest period?

postie:
She refers to the VOSA rules (chap 2, Article 8, para 6) “A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.”

She has just confirmed my explanation, it did start no later than the end of 6x24-hour periods from the end of your previous weekly rest, in fact it started after 1x24-hour period, so I don’t see where she thinks this supports her argument. The rules say it must start no later than the end of the sixth 24-hour period following a weekly rest but they don’t say you can’t take a weekly rest after just one 24-hour period. After this rest you commenced a new cycle of 6x24-hour periods at the end of which you took a weekly rest.

postie:
Even though she has seen your explanation of how I have kept within the law she just does not believe it!

Well more fool her and all that does is confirm she is clearly not qualified for the job of transport manager as she doesn’t appear to have even a basic grasp of the regulations. But then again, what do I know because I’m just a driver and she is a TM so she must obviously be right. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

postie:
I don’t really know what to do now, If you are correct then

If? If? What do you mean if? :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

postie:
I don’t want this “infringement” on my driving record any more than do I want to look at her smug face for the rest of my working life!

Swap the smug look from her face to yours. Simply email VOSA as ROG has suggested giving them all the details you gave me in your original post and ask them if you have worked 7 shifts without a weekly rest. Note that is 7 shifts and not 7 days as it is perfectly legal to actually work on 7 consecutive days. In fact you did actually work on each of the 7 days between the second and the 8th of June as you started work on the Monday evening and finished on the Sunday morning.

postie:
Can I involve VOSA in this dispute? If it turned out they were in favour of the transport manager would I get into any trouble ( fines, suspension of icence etc)?

Of course you can and trust me they won’t be in favour of the transport managers lack of understanding of the regulations. In fact it may just be that you get a response on this thread from someone who works for VOSA before too long, he has replied to a few posts on this forum in the last few days so hopefully will see this one. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

4

Thanks again Coffeeholic for all your help, and Rog for providing me with the VOSA contact details. I emailed them a full list of the dispute details so hope to hear something back from them in the not too distant future.

I suppose the only thing I am a bit worried about is that I took a reduced rest of 9 hours on the Sunday just to allow me to start my shift at 2328 on the Monday rather than because I actually worked for 15 hours in a 24 hour period.

I will let you know the outcome.

Thanks again :smiley:

5

postie:
I suppose the only thing I am a bit worried about is that I took a reduced rest of 9 hours on the Sunday just to allow me to start my shift at 2328 on the Monday rather than because I actually worked for 15 hours in a 24 hour period.

Andy, relax you didn’t take a reduced rest at that point, not that it makes any difference if you had… You only worked for 8 hours on Sunday the 1st of June, leaving you 16 hours until the end of your 24-hour period which began when you started work at 05:35 on that day. That is far in excess of a regular rest period of 11 hours. You extended this rest period into a weekly rest of 33 hours 53 minutes by not resuming work until 23:58 on the Monday.

I don’t see where, or why you think you took a reduced rest period but even if you had there is nothing in the regulations to prevent you from extending a reduced daily rest into a reduced or regular weekly rest. Remember, you don’t have to take the daily rest in addition to the weekly rest, the hours which form the daily rest requirement for a 24-hour period immediately before a weekly rest period are counted as part of the weekly rest.

Looking at the times you gave in the original post there is not a single occasion during the period 26th May to 16th June where you have taken a reduced daily rest. For it to be a reduced daily rest you either have to work for more than 13 hours, which you didn’t, or resume work before 11 hours have elapsed form finishing work, again you didn’t do this.

You have done nothing wrong regarding days worked, weekly or daily rest requirements and VOSA will confirm this when they reply to you. Just relax, enjoy the weekend, and look forward to the moment when you can wipe the smug look of her face when you show her the reply from VOSA. Maybe you should suggest a period of retraining for her:wink because she sure could use it: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

6

Hope you don’t mind me jumping on this thread but I’m trying to understand where in the regulations it says that a reduced weekly rest doesn’t need to be compensated for if it’s only taken to end the 6x24 hour period :confused:

I can see how it makes good sense for it to be that way, but still it doesn’t seem to fit with the regulations as far as I can see

Reduced Weekly Rest Period from 13:35 Sunday - 23:28 Monday (33 hours 53 minutes) This rest does not require compensation as you have already had a Regular Weekly Rest Period this week and this rest only serves to prevent you working more than 6x24 hour periods without a weekly rest.

7

tachograph:
Hope you don’t mind me jumping on this thread but I’m trying to understand where in the regulations it says that a reduced weekly rest doesn’t need to be compensated for if it’s only taken to end the 6x24 hour period :confused:

I can see how it makes good sense for it to be that way, but still it doesn’t seem to fit with the regulations as far as I can see

It fits perfectly with the regulations when you remember the regulations only require a driver to take one weekly rest period per fixed week and the regulations clearly state this.

In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least:
– two regular weekly rest periods, or
– one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
rest period of at least 24 hours.

Note the at least bit. You only have to do the minimum to meet the requirements of the regulations and the minimum in this case is one weekly rest period per fixed week. It’s all about reading and understanding the regulations and making sure the minimum requirements are met. The regulations don’t specifically say the second rest period in a week needs compensating for because they don’t need to, the one rest per week requirement shows that to be the case. If the extra rest period did require compensating the regulations would in fact have to state it, which they don’t.

So, in a week where a driver takes two weekly rest periods obviously only one of them is needed to meet the requirements of the regulations as two are more than the minimum requirement. Any additional weekly rest periods applying to the same week, be they reduced or regular, are surplus to minimum requirements be it because the driver took a day off or simply to prevent the driver working more than 6x24-hour periods without a weekly rest. In the case in this thread, by taking a full weekly rest period the the weekly rest requirements have been fulfilled for the week and therefore no compensation is required for the reduced rest.

If two reduced weekly rests are taken applying to a single fixed week then because the minimum requirements for the regulations is one weekly rest period, only one needs compensating for.

It is part of the same thing which allows a driver to take two consecutive reduced weekly rest periods in any two consecutive weeks, as long as at least one of the weeks also has a regular weekly rest applying to it. In that sort of case the second reduced weekly rest is usually only to prevent the driver working more than 6x24-hour periods. You will still hear many drivers wrongly claiming you can’t to back to back reduced weekly rests but you know this isn’t true.

Think of this scenario.

Week 1

Monday - resume work after regular weekly rest

Tuesday - Saturday work which brings upo 6x24 hour periods.

Sunday - reduced weekly rest.

Week 2

Monday and Tuesday work

Rest from 18:00 Tuesday - 06:00 Thursday which is long enough to be a reduced weekly rest.

Friday - work

Saturday and Sunday Regular weekly rest

Monday resume work.

Would you say the rest in the middle of week 2 required compensating for? It doesn’t.

It wasn’t there to prevent the driver working more than 6x24-hour periods, it was simply because the driver took a day off and a daily rest became long enough to become a weekly rest. He has met the requirements of the regulations by having at least one regular and one reduced weekly rest in any two week period. Reduced in week 1 and regular in week 2 so the extra one needs no compensation.

8

Neil said;

Of course you can and trust me they won’t be in favour of the transport managers lack of understanding of the regulations. In fact it may just be that you get a response on this thread from someone who works for VOSA before too long, he has replied to a few posts on this forum in the last few days so hopefully will see this one.

Postie has a new PM. :smiley:

9

geebee45:
Neil said;

Of course you can and trust me they won’t be in favour of the transport managers lack of understanding of the regulations. In fact it may just be that you get a response on this thread from someone who works for VOSA before too long, he has replied to a few posts on this forum in the last few days so hopefully will see this one.

Postie has a new PM. :smiley:

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

I hope it will wipe the smug look of his Transport Managers face. Postie seems to have been going through hell worrying about this so he deserves a little pleasure. :wink: :smiley:

10

Thanks again for the further replies.

If it is proved that I have not broken any rules (which it seems at the mo) then I will be causing one hell of a problem for the company that I work for ( rather obvious log on name gives that away!!) because they use a software package called Open Options to keep track of our driving and working hours.
The program might have been found not to be fit for purpose and if so will involve the dreaded M word …MONEY!!!

11

Coffeeholic:

tachograph:
Hope you don’t mind me jumping on this thread but I’m trying to understand where in the regulations it says that a reduced weekly rest doesn’t need to be compensated for if it’s only taken to end the 6x24 hour period :confused:

I can see how it makes good sense for it to be that way, but still it doesn’t seem to fit with the regulations as far as I can see

It fits perfectly with the regulations when you remember the regulations only require a driver to take one weekly rest period per fixed week and the regulations clearly state this.

I’ve replied in a new thread here to avoid hijacking this thread.

12

Postie;

I’ve looked back to your original post (sorry, couldn’t resist that one :laughing: ). As far as I’m concerned YOU ARE NOT IN TROUBLE…

I suggest that your Transport Manager starts reading what is actually written in the Regulations as opposed to what they think is written there. Mind you, we are all guilty of that, sometimes.

You said that your employer is using a software system to keep track of hours. Many systems are written by very clever people who know diddly squat about drivers hours. Systems make certain assumptions as there are simply too many ‘what / if’ arguments otherwise.

So, relax and go to work with a big smug grin on your face.

By the way, the 33 hours and 53 minutes rest you had means you owe the system 11 hours 7 minutes compensatory rest, added to a rest period of at least 9 hours and taken sometime before Midnight Sunday the 22nd or 29th June. Depending upon which week you decided to attach the reduced weekly rest to. Hope you did that :smiley:

13

geebee45:
By the way, the 33 hours and 53 minutes rest you had means you owe the system 11 hours 7 minutes compensatory rest, added to a rest period of at least 9 hours and taken sometime before Midnight Sunday the 22nd or 29th June.

Depending upon which week you decided to attach the reduced weekly rest to. Hope you did that :smiley:

He had already had a Regular Weekly Rest in the week before that rest, Week 1, so surely if he attaches it to Week 1, he wouldn’t need to compensate for it as he has a regular period attached to Week 1 already, over 26th May to 1st June? If he attaches it to Week 2, he may have to compensate for it but then he wouldn’t then have to compensate for the reduced weekly rest at the end Week 2, over 7th - 9th June, of 34 hours and 59 minutes? Surely he only needs to compensate for one of those and it doesn’t make too much difference which one?

In Week 3 he took a Regular Rest Period of 62 hours and 2 minutes, over 10th, 11th and 12th June, which takes care of compensating for whichever one of the first two reductions need it, and a reduced of 36 hours 17 minutes, over 15th, 16th June, which again surely won’t need compensating for as he has a regular rest period attached to Week 3?

14

This discussion split from this thread and carried on HERE :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: