Another POA argument

[waynedl]

I know the answer is around, but it’s probably in with a load of other stuff and I just want a simple answer to point at.

So, the argument goes:

Other lad: “If you do 3hrs driving and then 3hrs POA, you have to have a break”.
Me: “No you don’t, because POA isn’t work, and it’s only when you’ve done 6hrs work or 4.5hrs driving that you need a break”
Other lad: “No, if you’ve done 6hrs from duty start time, you must’ve had a 30min break”
Me: “Not this ■■■■ again lol, you only need 15 mins for the 6hr rule, 30 mins is for between 6 and 9hrs, and POA isn’t work, so you’ve not done 6hrs work, so you don’t need a break”

We had a few more discussions, some were getting quite heated, so the correct answer on here would be great and may even keep my blood pressure down

My argument is, 2 manned truck drives down the road, passenger is recording POA, driver is recording driving, after 4.5hrs they swap. That would show as 9hrs without a break, 4.5hrs POA + 4.5hrs driving.
Now, I’ve read that ‘THE 1ST 45 MINS POA WHEN DOUBLE MANNED COUNTS AS A BREAK’, but even taking that into consideration, you’d still have 8hrs 15 since your last break…

[nick2008]

waynedl:
I know the answer is around, but it’s probably in with a load of other stuff and I just want a simple answer to point at.

So, the argument goes:

Other lad: “If you do 3hrs driving and then 3hrs POA, you have to have a break”. correct you have only done 3 hrs
Me: “No you don’t, because POA isn’t work, and it’s only when you’ve done 6hrs work or 4.5hrs driving that you need a break” correct
Other lad: “No, if you’ve done 6hrs from duty start time, you must’ve had a 30min break”
Me: “Not this [zb] again lol, you only need 15 mins for the 6hr rule, 30 mins is for between 6 and 9hrs, and POA isn’t work, so you’ve not done 6hrs work, so you don’t need a break” again You are correct

We had a few more discussions, some were getting quite heated, so the correct answer on here would be great and may even keep my blood pressure down

My argument is, 2 manned truck drives down the road, passenger is recording POA, driver is recording driving, after 4.5hrs they swap. That would show as 9hrs without a break, 4.5hrs POA + 4.5hrs driving.
Now, I’ve read that ‘THE 1ST 45 MINS POA WHEN DOUBLE MANNED COUNTS AS A BREAK’, but even taking that into consideration, you’d still have 8hrs 15 since your last break…

FULL ■■■ HOUSE .BINGO. TELL THE OTHER LAD TO GO BACK SHELF FILLING AT POUDLAND

[waynedl]

Thanks mate.

I consider myself to have a pretty good understanding of the rules, and expect others to have a similar standard.
I’m not saying I’m perfect, there is stuff I don’t know, but it’s things that are irrelevent to me at the moment.
If they became relevent, I’d research them and ask questions etc…

I really couldn’t believe how heated the argument got, and the fact that no matter which way I tried to explain it, it was wrong

[tachograph]

As Nick said the blokes talking rubbish and you was right.

POA cannot be counted as working time, and therefore cannot be counted as part of the six hours work for the six hour rule.

But if he’s that determined that he’s right I wish you luck trying to convince him otherwise

[wheel_nut]

tachograph:
As Nick said the blokes talking rubbish and you was right.

POA cannot be counted as working time, and therefore cannot be counted as part of the six hours work for the six hour rule.

But if he’s that determined that he’s right I wish you luck trying to convince him otherwise

I agree, he is bound to have a mate whose second cousin twice removed used to live in the same street as a Vosa mans auntie.

[waynedl]

tachograph:
As Nick said the blokes talking rubbish and you was right.

POA cannot be counted as working time, and therefore cannot be counted as part of the six hours work for the six hour rule.

But if he’s that determined that he’s right I wish you luck trying to convince him otherwise

He’s a member on here tacho, so he’ll just be directed to this thread.

Part of the problem is, he’s just covered this on his dCPC and the instructor said…

Are we getting sick of hearing ‘my dCPC instructor told me …’ reply ‘he’s talking through his botty’.

It’s bad enough we have to do the crappy course, without it always being wrong bloody info given, when I did mine he was convinced that on a split daily rest you had to have a minimum of a 3hr break, then your normal 9hr rest, followed by at least a 12hr rest the next day
I nearly got thrown out of the class for correcting him, then arguing with him, then putting the gov.uk drivers hours page on the screen to show him, followed by more arguing…

How can they teach us if they don’t know the rules themselves??

[fatboy_slimslow]

Split daily rest of three uninterrupted hours followed by FOUR NINE HOURS OFF MONDAY TO THURSDAY NIGHT!

[winseer]

Makes you realise why some firms don’t count POA as “break” or don’t recognise it at all doesn’t it?

It might not be “work” but it IS time spent “at work”, so no. I disagree.

Been at work 6 hours? - take a freaking proper break! - It’s not rocket science!

…Otherwise, what say youz if you’ve been driving 3 hours, at work 14 hours, with 6 hours of that on POA? - Gonna take a night out rather than get back home in time are you? Gonna skip the proper breaks, because you think POA counts as breaks and it’s wiped the digicard slate are you?

If you need to take a break, then POA might as well be “other work”.
If you’ve taken a break already, then the POA you book after it isn’t “time off duty”, so you’re ON duty still, and running towards that 15 hour max - assuming you have even that!

All this ■■■■■■■■ would have been avoided IF firms hadn’t jumped at the first opportunity to “not pay staff for breaks” FFS.

[waynedl]

Lol Winseer.

The only POA I ever book is a manual entry when I get into work and my truck’s still down the road or there’s no job for me for a while, when I get in the truck then a manual entry is put in from when I arrived / booked on until I got in the truck which will be POA.

After that, anything that counts as POA counts as a break as far as I’m concerned.

But, that wasn’t the argument

[wheel_nut]

Winseer:
Makes you realise why some firms don’t count POA as “break” or don’t recognise it at all doesn’t it?

It might not be “work” but it IS time spent “at work”, so no. I disagree.

Been at work 6 hours? - take a freaking proper break! - It’s not rocket science!

Fazakerley.

Try ringing the transport manager about 1pm, “sorry he is not in, he has gone to lunch, poor bloke started at 8am you know.”

The same conversation was often tried in France. Where are you?, Why have you stopped?

I have been for my breakfast. Did you have a coffee, a crap and something to eat before you came to work.

Yes of course I did

Well I haven’t had one yet, now stop bothering me!

[silver_surfer]

I just ignore the whole shebang.

[wildfire]

waynedl:
I know the answer is around, but it’s probably in with a load of other stuff and I just want a simple answer to point at.

So, the argument goes:

Other lad: “If you do 3hrs driving and then 3hrs POA, you have to have a break”.
Me: “No you don’t, because POA isn’t work, and it’s only when you’ve done 6hrs work or 4.5hrs driving that you need a break”
Other lad: “No, if you’ve done 6hrs from duty start time, you must’ve had a 30min break”
Me: “Not this [zb] again lol, you only need 15 mins for the 6hr rule, 30 mins is for between 6 and 9hrs, and POA isn’t work, so you’ve not done 6hrs work, so you don’t need a break”
correct on that one
We had a few more discussions, some were getting quite heated, so the correct answer on here would be great and may even keep my blood pressure down

My argument is, 2 manned truck drives down the road, passenger is recording POA, driver is recording driving, after 4.5hrs they swap. That would show as 9hrs without a break, 4.5hrs POA + 4.5hrs driving.
Now, I’ve read that ‘THE 1ST 45 MINS POA WHEN DOUBLE MANNED COUNTS AS A BREAK’, but even taking that into consideration, you’d still have 8hrs 15 since your last break…

not quite correct as you are dealing with 2 different sets of rules, tacho regs and rtd regs.

vosa accept the first 45 mins of poa as break, but you have had to have done some work prior i.e driving to count for a break under tacho regs and other work to be able claim a break under rtd regs.

as the rules allow a passanger to take a break in a moving vehicle they have to adopt this first 45 mins equals break, because a digi tacho will not record break on number 2 slot card while a vehicle is in motion, only poa and other work.

Now getting back to your argument,
to be able to show break that will count for tacho regs , you have to of driven at some stage before the break can be counted toward your 45 mins.
now you have written that number 2 driver has been on poa since putting his card in, so his first 45 can’t be counted as break against tacho regs and as he has been on poa, his first 6 hrs hasn’t started yet until he switches to other work then his first 6 hrs would start, if that makes sense.

the confusion comes because duty time DOES NOT equal working time, you can be on duty for 15 hrs but by using break and poa you might only work a fraction of that depending on what you are doing, and as the regulation state driving and other work only count against working time poa and break do not

so driver 2 can legally do the 4.5 hrs driving after his 4.5 hours poa, as the poa does not count for working time,
now when driver 1 stopped driving and went onto poa in slot 2 his first 45 mins would count as break for both rtd and tacho regs.
so he can legally jump back into the drivers seat after driver 2 had finished his 4.5 hrs drive and carry on.
driver 2 has now gone onto poa with his card in slot 2 and the first 45 mins of that poa would count as break, so as soon as driver 1 had finished is second 4.5 hrs drive he can jump straight in the driver seat and carry on.

complicated I know but I didn’t make the rules

I hope that makes sense

[tachograph]

wildfire:

waynedl:
I know the answer is around, but it’s probably in with a load of other stuff and I just want a simple answer to point at.

So, the argument goes:

Other lad: “If you do 3hrs driving and then 3hrs POA, you have to have a break”.
Me: “No you don’t, because POA isn’t work, and it’s only when you’ve done 6hrs work or 4.5hrs driving that you need a break”
Other lad: “No, if you’ve done 6hrs from duty start time, you must’ve had a 30min break”
Me: “Not this [zb] again lol, you only need 15 mins for the 6hr rule, 30 mins is for between 6 and 9hrs, and POA isn’t work, so you’ve not done 6hrs work, so you don’t need a break”
correct on that one
We had a few more discussions, some were getting quite heated, so the correct answer on here would be great and may even keep my blood pressure down

My argument is, 2 manned truck drives down the road, passenger is recording POA, driver is recording driving, after 4.5hrs they swap. That would show as 9hrs without a break, 4.5hrs POA + 4.5hrs driving.
Now, I’ve read that ‘THE 1ST 45 MINS POA WHEN DOUBLE MANNED COUNTS AS A BREAK’, but even taking that into consideration, you’d still have 8hrs 15 since your last break…

not quite correct as you are dealing with 2 different sets of rules, tacho regs and rtd regs.

vosa accept the first 45 mins of poa as break, but you have had to have done some work prior i.e driving to count for a break under tacho regs and other work to be able claim a break under rtd regs.

as the rules allow a passanger to take a break in a moving vehicle they have to adopt this first 45 mins equals break, because a digi tacho will not record break on number 2 slot card while a vehicle is in motion, only poa and other work.

Now getting back to your argument,
to be able to show break that will count for tacho regs , you have to of driven at some stage before the break can be counted toward your 45 mins.
now you have written that number 2 driver has been on poa since putting his card in, so his first 45 can’t be counted as break against tacho regs and as he has been on poa, his first 6 hrs hasn’t started yet until he switches to other work then his first 6 hrs would start, if that makes sense.

the confusion comes because duty time DOES NOT equal working time, you can be on duty for 15 hrs but by using break and poa you might only work a fraction of that depending on what you are doing, and as the regulation state driving and other work only count against working time poa and break do not

so driver 2 can legally do the 4.5 hrs driving after his 4.5 hours poa, as the poa does not count for working time,
now when driver 1 stopped driving and went onto poa in slot 2 his first 45 mins would count as break for both rtd and tacho regs.
so he can legally jump back into the drivers seat after driver 2 had finished his 4.5 hrs drive and carry on.
driver 2 has now gone onto poa with his card in slot 2 and the first 45 mins of that poa would count as break, so as soon as driver 1 had finished is second 4.5 hrs drive he can jump straight in the driver seat and carry on.

complicated I know but I didn’t make the rules

I hope that makes sense

I could be wrong, but I think waynedl is using the last paragraph of his post to show why POA cannot count towards the six hours for the six hour rule, rather than saying it does.

I looks to me that he’s saying that if POA counted towards the six hours you couldn’t be on POA for 4½ hours then drive for 4½ hours without recording a break, but we all know that you can do that when multi-manning.

So I think you’re both basically saying the same thing in different ways

Oh yes, and I agree with both of you

[wildfire]

i might of miss read the first post
I was going on the capital bit when he said the first 45 mins counts as break, it doesn’t until you have done something, or am I wrong in the way that I read it

[tachograph]

wildfire:
i might of miss read the first post
I was going on the capital bit when he said the first 45 mins counts as break, it doesn’t until you have done something, or am I wrong in the way that I read it

Well to be fair a break is a break no matter when it’s taken or assumed to be taken, if it’s at the immediate start of the shift it wouldn’t count as part of the total shifts working time break (for want of a better phrase) because those breaks have to interrupt the working time, but it’s still a break.

Not that it makes one iota of difference to the original discussion

[wildfire]

tachograph:

wildfire:
i might of miss read the first post
I was going on the capital bit when he said the first 45 mins counts as break, it doesn’t until you have done something, or am I wrong in the way that I read it

Well to be fair a break is a break no matter when it’s taken or assumed to be taken, if it’s at the immediate start of the shift it wouldn’t count as part of the total shifts working time break (for want of a better phrase) because those breaks have to interrupt the working time, but it’s still a break.

Not that it makes one iota of difference to the original discussion

if you put your card in and stay on break have actually started work just to be pedantic lol

[mike-c]

wildfire:

waynedl:
I know the answer is around, but it’s probably in with a load of other stuff and I just want a simple answer to point at.

So, the argument goes:

Other lad: “If you do 3hrs driving and then 3hrs POA, you have to have a break”.
Me: “No you don’t, because POA isn’t work, and it’s only when you’ve done 6hrs work or 4.5hrs driving that you need a break”
Other lad: “No, if you’ve done 6hrs from duty start time, you must’ve had a 30min break”
Me: “Not this [zb] again lol, you only need 15 mins for the 6hr rule, 30 mins is for between 6 and 9hrs, and POA isn’t work, so you’ve not done 6hrs work, so you don’t need a break”
correct on that one
We had a few more discussions, some were getting quite heated, so the correct answer on here would be great and may even keep my blood pressure down

My argument is, 2 manned truck drives down the road, passenger is recording POA, driver is recording driving, after 4.5hrs they swap. That would show as 9hrs without a break, 4.5hrs POA + 4.5hrs driving.
Now, I’ve read that ‘THE 1ST 45 MINS POA WHEN DOUBLE MANNED COUNTS AS A BREAK’, but even taking that into consideration, you’d still have 8hrs 15 since your last break…

not quite correct as you are dealing with 2 different sets of rules, tacho regs and rtd regs.

vosa accept the first 45 mins of poa as break, but you have had to have done some work prior i.e driving to count for a break under tacho regs and other work to be able claim a break under rtd regs.

as the rules allow a passanger to take a break in a moving vehicle they have to adopt this first 45 mins equals break, because a digi tacho will not record break on number 2 slot card while a vehicle is in motion, only poa and other work.

Now getting back to your argument,
to be able to show break that will count for tacho regs , you have to of driven at some stage before the break can be counted toward your 45 mins.
now you have written that number 2 driver has been on poa since putting his card in, so his first 45 can’t be counted as break against tacho regs and as he has been on poa, his first 6 hrs hasn’t started yet until he switches to other work then his first 6 hrs would start, if that makes sense.

the confusion comes because duty time DOES NOT equal working time, you can be on duty for 15 hrs but by using break and poa you might only work a fraction of that depending on what you are doing, and as the regulation state driving and other work only count against working time poa and break do not

so driver 2 can legally do the 4.5 hrs driving after his 4.5 hours poa, as the poa does not count for working time,
now when driver 1 stopped driving and went onto poa in slot 2 his first 45 mins would count as break for both rtd and tacho regs.
so he can legally jump back into the drivers seat after driver 2 had finished his 4.5 hrs drive and carry on.
driver 2 has now gone onto poa with his card in slot 2 and the first 45 mins of that poa would count as break, so as soon as driver 1 had finished is second 4.5 hrs drive he can jump straight in the driver seat and carry on.

complicated I know but I didn’t make the rules

I hope that makes sense

Makes perfect sense to me and also raises more questions !!