An idea for discussion

An interesting idea, perhaps the concept can be put forward as ‘The Guild of Commercial Drivers’.

Personally, I don’t think that holding a certain class of licence is enough to grant membership of such an organisation. Whilst I agree that the standards required to obtain a licence in this country are probably the highest/hardest in the world, we have all seen (and there are plenty of threads to the effect) bad drivers on the roads - the ones who cut you up, the tailgaters, the white van ‘menace’, the blatant speeders, etc.

Then there is the fact that there are more drivers involved in haulage than just the class 1’s. To exclude them would defeat the object of the exercise yet to include them purely on licence would allow the bad to overshadow the good, after all it’s the minorities which make the news - a truck crash makes the news yet the thousands of safely driven kilometers are ignored, which do you think influences public opinion.

Bearing in mind the impending EU Driver Training Directive, a CPC would be a good gauge of professional ability but not in it’s present format. I don’t believe that a driver needs the level of business knowledge required in the current CPC to be a professional driver, so a review of the CPC programme would be required if this was chosen as a criterion.

As a final thought (for the moment) when are people in this country going to wake up from the coma that is the ‘us and them’ mentality and realise that we are all in it together. One of the main reasons that the unions are disparaged is this attitude. It’s all very well saying ‘they’ve go to change then we will’ but ‘they’ say the same thing. An organisation which sets, and enforces, standards should allow all parties involved in an issue to work together for their mutual benefit.

just a couple of thoughts

Jules

I like this idea!
To TC, that is what a Union used to represent, the workers rights, in all shapes or forms.
For this thread, it should take more than holding an HGV (sorry - LGV ) license to join any such “Guild” that purports to represent ‘Professional’ LORRY drivers. Any ■■■■ fool can pass the test to drive a truck but it takes much more to be a ‘Professional’ lorry driver!

All I want to ask is, whats in it for me (or any other driver)? Im afraid that most of the stuff I have experienced regarding “professionalism” so far in driving just seems to add a load more strife to the day to day hassle we have to live with anyway, and makes me pine for 20 years ago when I was just a lorry driver and things seemed a lot simpler. This is a Sincere question by the way.

Mal:
All I want to ask is, whats in it for me

That’ll be the point where you get your wallet out, Mal :open_mouth:

:sunglasses:

Mal
to reply I would say for drivers who were not members of…??whatever it will be called

They would not have the respect of empoyers, public, media!!! well just as it is now!!! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

This new set up would demand that all members would have the respect of the above! and do you know what :question:
Employers ,the public and yes even the media would love a body that was responsible for all professional drivers. as a group it would ensure drivers were professional and would expect all members to be tret as professional!

the drivers who fall short would have to re-train! to earn the respect!

Employers would also be expected to treat us as an asset!, of course we would be because we would have to answer to our peers!

Rob K:

Mal:
All I want to ask is, whats in it for me

That’ll be the point where you get your wallet out, Mal :open_mouth:

:sunglasses:

I reckon so Rob! then get burdened for the privilidge eh! :wink:

TC:
Mal
to reply I would say for drivers who were not members of…??whatever it will be called

They would not have the respect of empoyers, public, media!!! well just as it is now!!! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

This new set up would demand that all members would have the respect of the above! and do you know what :question:
Employers ,the public and yes even the media would love a body that was responsible for all professional drivers. as a group it would ensure drivers were professional and would expect all members to be tret as professional!

the drivers who fall short would have to re-train! to earn the respect!

Employers would also be expected to treat us as an asset!, of course we would be because we would have to answer to our peers!

Theres that word again, training, training for what? how dyou reckon the jobs got by for so long? My opinion is that all of it would result in a load of hassle for blokes and hoops to jump through, and joe public would still hate us as they always have! What about people that have done the job OK for yonks, kept the wheels turning, and dont see the need to get burdened with any more garbage? A track record speaks for itself dont it? Before long “experts” might be wheeled in to stick their oar in and the job would be well and truly knackered! But fair play to you TC, and anyone else thats into it, but I reckon I’ll pass mate!

From what I’ve read, so far, I think that the Guild would need to set a higher standard of driving than just the test. That would need examiners, who would need to be paid. As anyone can drive “perfectly” for an hour or two, it would probably need a full working day assessment, and an examination on theoretical knowledge similar to the CPC. As for “enforcement”, the guild could take over one of the Hows My Driving type organisations and advertise it as a part of the Professional Drivers Guild.

All of this would cost money. I don’t know about the trade guilds, never having been in a position to join one, but the Chartered organisations charge £thousands, to take their exams (my wife was training to become a chartered accountant). Even if the qualifications that you have, give you exemptions for some of the papers, you still pay £hundreds for an exempted paper.

That leads me to the conclusion that it would be pretty expensive to join a guild, because it will be expensive to run it. I would need a lot more than being given respect, before I would think about paying out the kind of money needed to join this guild. However the basic idea bears talking about. when some realistic figures can be arrived at, then I would consider whether or not to join.

Now, there is an organisation that is TRYING to be what you suggest. It has also been suggested that the leadership of said organisation have lost the plot a touch, which I won’t debate here.
They’ve made a start on the long, hard business of making an organisation which will enhance our image and professionalism. And I’m certain that having input from someone with Alasdair’s vision would only be a good thing.
If you want a link, you’ll have to PM me for it. (Forum rules and so on)

Yes Alikat I am well aware of the organisation you refer to, the bit under your name was a give away, :wink: but l didn’t mention them in my first post as I am well aware of the problems that seem to occur whenever their name crops up on here. However in the same way we can discuss the unions, the RHA or truck manufactures maybe it is permissible to comment on the PDA.

I first found them last year and I am a frequent visitor to their site and forums but I don’t think they fulfil the idea of an association that I have in mind. While they have done some good things such as the Justice for Drivers campaign and to a certain extent the parking petition, although how relevant that will be when the WTD arrives and tramping declines to almost zero remains to be seen, they seem to lack direction and are unsure if they want to be Arthur or Martha, are they a drivers association or a training school? While I agree training for new drivers is important should this not be the domain of the training schools or an Association that is well on the way to solving the problems and improving the image of existing drivers and ridding the industry of cowboys, I have yet to see any mention of them addressing this problem?

My application form to join is lying here all filled in and has been for a good while but I have not mailed it yet as if training is going to be their main focus I see no reason for me to join. I know of several other drivers who share this view but please do not take this as an attack on the PDA, it is not meant to be but is just my reasons why, despite perhaps being the obvious choice, they don’t fulfil the role of a professional body for drivers as I see it.

I already mentioned that I am a frequent visitor to their forums but I have never posted these thoughts on there as they do not seem to take criticism or suggestions well, something that is also a big failing of the unions, and I have no desire to become part of the slanging match that follows critical posts.

If this post breaks the rules I am sorry and will understand if it has to be edited.

Al.

Mal:
how dyou reckon the jobs got by for so long?

Just because the job has ‘got by’ for so long does that mean that we shouldn’t strive to improve things? Sure we can carry on as we are but surely trying to make changes can’t hurt?

Rob K:
That’ll be the point where you get your wallet out, Mal

When I made my first post I had a mental list of Trucknet members who would dismiss the idea out of hand and generally think any attempt to make things better is to be sneered at and you were top of the list Rob so you are at least predictable my friend.

Boots O’Lead:
An interesting idea, perhaps the concept can be put forward as ‘The Guild of Commercial Drivers’.
[SNIP]
An organisation which sets, and enforces, standards should allow all parties involved in an issue to work together for their mutual benefit.

just a couple of thoughts

Jules

Very wise words Jules and a very good suggestion as to the name of the proposed organisation.

Reading this and all the replies has got me confused, which is quite easy, are we talking of a professional, recognised and certificated organisation, or a union type organisation?

When you take the advanced drivers test you get a certificate as with CPC, ADR, Level 4 security etc etc. With the LGV you get your licence nothing else, you go out and drive and then start learning.

I am all for a professional body for LGV drivers, but I do not want it to be just a named society that gives out certificates to all and sundry. If we want a recognised society to which we all “subscribe” then think carefully as it will be pulled in to all the messy parts of this industry. We all know that we the truckers are regarded by most of the influencial people and others as the “unseen and unknown” until something triggers off our voices and all of a sudden we are seen again.

I am sure everybody here and all the other drivers out there want to be recognised as true providers to the countries industry and the citizens of the UK.

This can only happen if the “GUILD” is operated in the same way as all the others. Run by professionals for professionals.

I couldn’t agree with you more funnyfut. My reading of this thread seems to say it would be a ‘professional, recognised and certificated organisation’ rather than a ‘union type organisation’ and I think that would be the way forward.

I know if I was interviewing for a driver and they were a member of this sort of organisation they would get the nod, and I would also feel they would be worth paying a higher wage to, over someone who wasn’t.

Alasdair:

Mal:
how dyou reckon the jobs got by for so long?

Just because the job has ‘got by’ for so long does that mean that we shouldn’t strive to improve things? Sure we can carry on as we are but surely trying to make changes can’t hurt?

Al, improving things of course, I aint against that. But, Im wary of what some folk call “improvement”! Like I said before, all I have yet seen as the “meat” if yu like of the professional argument has been a lot of hot air and “training” and things that make the drivers lot more complicated and strife for zip in return. If you have some other thing in mind, Im all ears my freind! :slight_smile:

I’ve just been doing some research into guilds and their history and it has been interesting reading. It also seems to be a resurgent topic in labour relations discussions. A few interesting background articles can be found here:

http://ccs.mit.edu/21C/21CWP004.html

http://www.linezine.com/5.2/articles/rlgatfol.htm

http://www.islam.co.za/awqafsa/sorce/library/Article%2014.htm

http://typaldos.com/word.documents/profguilds/

In a nutshell, in the old days a guild was set up by people sharing a common trade or profession. The guild would then set standards and approve who could work in that trade in their area. They also controlled wages, working hours, quality control and prices. In a lot of ways, the guilds were the forerunner of today’s unions — they were even the originators of the ‘closed shop’. A significant characteristic of the guild was the rank structure, to start you were an apprentice from which you graduated to journeyman and then had the opportunity to become a master. As the guilds grew in size and power they fell victim to politics and corruption which, combined with a “we don’t like anything new unless we thought of it” mentality was the biggest contributor to their downfall.

The modern view of guilds seems to lean more towards the organisation taking on some of the responsibilities which have been assumed by the state but applied to ‘mobile’ workers, i.e. those outside a corporate structure.

The question is, what do we think a guild should be and how do we think it should operate?

Should it be what unions used to be, or were the unions ever what we thought they were? Unions were born in a time of exploitation in order to obtain fair conditions for the workers when the laws were all geared towards the employer/landowner. By their very nature they are confrontational and they achieved their objectives. But has their time passed? It appears these days that they are more about the personality in charge than the welfare of the members. It is true that some of their operations in the recent past (last 40 years) have done more harm than good in terms of both wrecking industries which eliminated jobs and allowing governments to introduce legislation which turns the clock back towards exploitation.

Should it be taking on some of the responsibilities which have been assumed by the government? This modern train of thought tends more to the American workplace than ours as it refers to healthcare, unemployment insurance and pensions. But just looking at the fiasco that is pensions in this country, we could be well on our way to needing the same things.

Should it be an organisation which just sets standards, co-ordinates and ratifies training bodies to meet such standards and represents its membership in dealings with outside bodies such as legislative and media organisations.

Or should it be a mixture of all the above?

A guild is one of those organisational types which claim to be run by its members. Before even considering setting up a guild, the prospective members have to decide what they want it to be and how they want it to operate. That means questions and suggestions being put into open forum and discussed until an agreement is reached.

A further characteristic of the old guilds was as a place to share ideas, thoughts, advice and social gathering. We already have this part, it’s called TruckNetUK.

Mal asked a sincere and serious question, “what’s in it for me?”. He received a flippant and non-constructive reply which doesn’t help the general discussion. It was a valid question on which rests the viability of any organisation which claims to represent drivers. My first response would be to direct you to Coffeholic’s post which, I think, speaks volumes.

Ah well, enough for now

Jules

Boots O’Lead:
My first response would be to direct you to Coffeholic’s post which, I think, speaks volumes.

What have I done wrong now?

Interesting reading Jules and I’m going to have a look at those links you posted, thanks for them.

What have you done wrong Neil?..nowt. But as an O/D and potential employer, I think the second part of your post gives the best reason for having an effective professional body.

Coffeeholic wrote:

I know if I was interviewing for a driver and they were a member of this sort of organisation they would get the nod, and I would also feel they would be worth paying a higher wage to, over someone who wasn’t.

Jules

Ah right, got you.