not mentioning agency name but there based in hollies truck stop cannock …rang them up today and said do you deal with ltd company drivers bloke on phone said yes…all went well then he asked when do you require work i said will be in january as I’m setting up as limited …he said you don’t want to do that join our umbrella scheme …i told him no and he got right funny …see some of these agencies are desperate to put you under there schemes do they get commission for it
I don’t know if they get any financial gain out of it or if it just means they don’t have to bother with all the pay shenanigans. I have found more & more agencies only use umbrella schemes, gem partnership based in peterlee is one, so it’s now one of the first questions I ask if contacting an agency for work, if it’s only umbrella then I turn it down.
stvme2519:
not mentioning agency name but there based in hollies truck stop cannock …rang them up today and said do you deal with ltd company drivers bloke on phone said yes…all went well then he asked when do you require work i said will be in january as I’m setting up as limited …he said you don’t want to do that join our umbrella scheme …i told him no and he got right funny …see some of these agencies are desperate to put you under there schemes do they get commission for it
I couldn’t 100% say yes but I would take a very good guess that they do judging by the fact they were hesitant about using you through your Ltd Co. Normally they are reluctant to use you under PAYE status due to holiday pay, sick pay etc.
Anyway nice to see a fellow driver refusing to join the umbrella con/rip off and doing it properly by being a Ltd Co. Maybe you could name the agency as you are doing nothing slanderous by doing so?
ucatt.org.uk/workers-caught- … yne-rooney
Mine is pushing it too. I would change agency if I am forced
tmcassett:
Anyway nice to see a fellow driver refusing to join the umbrella con/rip off and doing it properly by being a Ltd Co. Maybe you could name the agency as you are doing nothing slanderous by doing so?
ROFLMAO “Doing it properly being a Ltd Company”. Doing it PAYE is doing it properly. Doing it Ltd Company isn’t any different than umbrella other than you control who does the accounting and what fees you pay. Its still in that grey area as working for agencies doesn’t meet self employment criteria regardless of the fact you’re limited company.
HMRC have already started consultation into all of this as was announced in the budget. The govt have a big financial hole to fill and it’ll be you lot who will be doing the filling along with the agencies you work for. HMRC take a while to get going but once they do they take no prisoners as the IT contractor sector found out. That was set up in a similar fashion to the scam going on with agency truck driving with people using umbrella companies and Ltd companies and by the end there were thousands who got big bills for tax and NI and many went bust.
if you use a couple of agencies and a couple direct you ll be more than fine
Hi. What’s an umbrella scheme?
stvme2519:
if you use a couple of agencies and a couple direct you ll be more than fine
Still not enough. All HMRC need to ask is “can you take a job from the agency and send anyone in you like to do it without having to seek permission from the agency?” In most cases the answer will be no.
If you actually look through all the HMRC guidelines and manuals which will take you more than just a few minutes, its clear to see that it doesn’t qualify as self employment.
Hi. What’s an umbrella scheme?
Its a scheme whereby the agency stays nice and dry should the tax man start to RAIN down on you 
If it’s that hard to make money out of being an agency these days - why are there so many start-ups?
It occurs to me that agencies will always struggle when there’s either ‘too much work’ or ‘too many drivers to place’. That’s a pretty tough thing to balance, so I don’t envy them trying.
There’s so many other businesses one can start-up though, similar amounts of capital required, similar amount of “hours input” - but don’t have anywhere near the hassle of phoning up loads of people, either to disappoint or overload with work as appropriate.
The hardest agency shifts to fill are not just the “lower paid” ones - they are the ones too far out of town, and those that involve nothing but rushing about all day long.
Mind you, I never did like earlies much. Too much is given up to work them in my book.
If I could get monday-friday full time working hours between 6pm and 6am - I’d be there like a shot. I don’t like flat shifts on nights, but 11-12 hours suits me fine, since that way any weekends worked on top will be “overtime” and I won’t need it every week to get by.
I often wondered if the only reason that “umbrella” is pushed at all - is not so much because of the “lower costs” in tricking people to pay the employer’s stamp, and “more takehome pay” in the help in fiddling HMRC that umbrella payroll firms represent - but this:
Agency staff come and go. Has it become overly expensive nowdays to get someone on the books as “full time” only for them to leave fairly soon afterwoulds, due to disatisfaction with the “new” job?
For those actually looking for that elusive job - “try before you buy” on agency makes a lot of sense doesn’t it?
How much paperwork and costs are there really involved in “taking on staff” nowdays? Proper PAYE staff that is…
Its also a lot easier to companies to get rid of problem drivers if they are agency. All it takes is one phone call.
Conor:
tmcassett:
Anyway nice to see a fellow driver refusing to join the umbrella con/rip off and doing it properly by being a Ltd Co. Maybe you could name the agency as you are doing nothing slanderous by doing so?ROFLMAO “Doing it properly being a Ltd Company”. Doing it PAYE is doing it properly. Doing it Ltd Company isn’t any different than umbrella other than you control who does the accounting and what fees you pay. Its still in that grey area as working for agencies doesn’t meet self employment criteria regardless of the fact you’re limited company.
HMRC have already started consultation into all of this as was announced in the budget. The govt have a big financial hole to fill and it’ll be you lot who will be doing the filling along with the agencies you work for. HMRC take a while to get going but once they do they take no prisoners as the IT contractor sector found out. That was set up in a similar fashion to the scam going on with agency truck driving with people using umbrella companies and Ltd companies and by the end there were thousands who got big bills for tax and NI and many went bust.
Where in my post exactly did I say that doing it PAYE is not doing it properly■■? Being PAYE is absolutely fine too but the OP states that he wants to set himself up as a Ltd Co. so my comment was regarding the fact he has chosen to stay away from the umbrella companies. Considering you know everything and your opinion is always right judging by your posts on this forum I’m surprised you missed that.
As for the usual scare-mongering in relation to HMRC and “the crackdown” Yes there are guidelines written in black and white text on HMRC’s website and they are exactly that “guidelines”, however like with all things “rules” they are subjective and believe it or not discretion and common sense are actually applied. If you were to go by exactly what’s written on the HMRC website regarding self employment and IR35 regulations then in the real world 99% of truck drivers would fail that test in relation to “sending a substitute”, “being under the direct supervision”, “can you suffer financial losses” etc
If on the other hand the bigger picture is looked at and I’ll use myself as an example here because I don’t feel I’m doing anything wrong then I would I would feel very confident were I ever to get investigated by proving I was not an employee because I do my own books every week, I do my own tax and VAT returns, I do my own payroll, I don’t get holiday pay, I don’t get sick pay (there’s a case for stating the “financial risk” rule could in theory apply here), I get no company perks such as pension, childcare schemes and other things employers offer their workers etc… I am under no obligation to accept any work, I am able and free to find my own work direct with companies should I choose - I choose not too because for me its a lot less hassle just to get it off whichever agency I choose to work for, I am under no obligation to give any notice to either agency or company if I don’t want to work there anymore, I negotiate my own pay rates, I pay for my own public liability insurance. This year alone I have contracted my services for periods of time to 8 different agencies at 11 different companies. I’m aware that people on PAYE probably work at numerous agencies and companies but combine that with all the above then if all that’s not enough for HMRC then I give up.
Plus I think you’ll find in the case of the IT industry, the reason they all got done was because it was proved they actually were employee’s employed by a company but chose to hide behind their Ltd Companies and the umbrella schemes they used to minimise their tax and national insurance contributions. Plus with the IT Contractors, Management Consultants and the like who got done well they charge and can earn a day what a lot of truck drivers will earn for a weeks work so to HMRC it was much more of a lucrative catch and this was all before the mass government cutbacks.
Yeah HMRC are making noises about investigating but in case you haven’t noticed thanks to our wonderful government HMRC like everywhere else have had their fair share of cuts, they may have the backing of Cameron and his cronies with this but with an election a few months away they’ll say anything that’s going to get them votes to stay in number 10. Lets be honest it wouldn’t be the first promise the conservatives have broken in the last few years.
Worse case scenario though this does come to fruition I bet its the umbrella companies on their radars for the dodgy tax fiddles and expense claims they promote to people who actually are under contracts of employment and not the individuals who genuinely are self employed in most sense’s of the word.
tmcassett:
If on the other hand the bigger picture is looked at and I’ll use myself as an example here because I don’t feel I’m doing anything wrong then I would I would feel very confident were I ever to get investigated by proving I was not an employee because I do my own books every week, I do my own tax and VAT returns, I do my own payroll, I don’t get holiday pay, I don’t get sick pay (there’s a case for stating the “financial risk” rule could in theory apply here), I get no company perks such as pension, childcare schemes and other things employers offer their workers etc… I am under no obligation to accept any work, I am able and free to find my own work direct with companies should I choose - I choose not too because for me its a lot less hassle just to get it off whichever agency I choose to work for, I am under no obligation to give any notice to either agency or company if I don’t want to work there anymore, I negotiate my own pay rates, I pay for my own public liability insurance. This year alone I have contracted my services for periods of time to 8 different agencies at 11 different companies. I’m aware that people on PAYE probably work at numerous agencies and companies but combine that with all the above then if all that’s not enough for HMRC then I give up.
+1 
Radar19:
Its also a lot easier to companies to get rid of problem drivers if they are agency. All it takes is one phone call.
…or the lack of one for about a month. 
HeavyOwl:
Hi. What’s an umbrella scheme?
legal con in my opinion
I thoroughly detest agencies, this is one of the reasons why…
to give some idea - the government looked into the umbrella/ltd company schemes early this year and certain things were changed so it has been looked into.
to recruit a single class 1 driver costs around £1k if you factor in adverts/interview/forms/back office etc.
and as i always bang on about but it is true SOME people are better off on umbrella/ltd some are not, its all about choice to me, i wont force a driver ltd and i wont force one onto paye.
i also notice on here how the drivers who tend to slate agencies seem to slate every other company they have worked at yet during the busiest run up to xmas are sat at home not working.
tmcassett:
Plus I think you’ll find in the case of the IT industry, the reason they all got done was because it was proved they actually were employee’s employed by a company but chose to hide behind their Ltd Companies and the umbrella schemes they used to minimise their tax and national insurance contributions.
Exactly the same as truck drivers employed by agencies but using Ltd companies and umbrella schemes. You are an employee of the agency. The agency tells you where you’re working, what time you start and dictates who you send. You act under the orders of the agency and their client, therefore you are an employee.
Worse case scenario though this does come to fruition I bet its the umbrella companies on their radars for the dodgy tax fiddles and expense claims they promote to people who actually are under contracts of employment and not the individuals who genuinely are self employed in most sense’s of the word.
You’re not genuinely self employed though. And yes they will go after the individuals just the same as they did in the IT sector.
Conor:
tmcassett:
Plus I think you’ll find in the case of the IT industry, the reason they all got done was because it was proved they actually were employee’s employed by a company but chose to hide behind their Ltd Companies and the umbrella schemes they used to minimise their tax and national insurance contributions.Exactly the same as truck drivers employed by agencies but using Ltd companies and umbrella schemes. You are an employee of the agency. The agency tells you where you’re working, what time you start and dictates who you send. You act under the orders of the agency and their client, therefore you are an employee.
Worse case scenario though this does come to fruition I bet its the umbrella companies on their radars for the dodgy tax fiddles and expense claims they promote to people who actually are under contracts of employment and not the individuals who genuinely are self employed in most sense’s of the word.
You’re not genuinely self employed though. And yes they will go after the individuals just the same as they did in the IT sector.
Afraid I’m not an employee of the agency, I would need to have signed a contract of employment or their terms and conditions for that to be the case and I never do. I’m contracting my services for a period of time to them - which I am entitled to do. As for the second part then if interpretation is used then I’ve listed numerous reasons in my last post why I’m not an employee when the bigger picture is looked at. Its not always as simple as black and white but your obviously not going to be persuaded otherwise. I would also like to know exactly how HMRC would be able to prove I couldn’t send someone else in to do the work. I’m sure all the truck drivers who’ve been stung by HMRC will be along shortly to tell what an investigation involves and their sob stories of how they’ve all been shut down and put out of business. Basically back in the real world nothing is ever going to come of this.
They have supposedly been cracking down on this for years, has anyone actually been done for anything or is just the normal all talk no action?? Do you really think the government are going to back up HMRC and push this as much as they say with an election 6 months away and especially after the expenses scandal when they were all on the fiddle with their dodgy schemes and expenses - it would be the ultimate case of hypocrisy targeting small one man band ltd Co’s! And I can’t speak for anyone else in how they run their Ltd Co. but having sought independent financial advice, advice from 2 different accountants and also from my uncle a chartered accountant for some 37 years before I set mine up I am not doing anything wrong in how I operate.
they cracked down on people paying dividends to avoid tax, ni and other stuff like that.