Agencies, umbrella schemes and unhappy clients

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

There is a permanent hgv driving job being advertised by three separate driving agencies, one of whom I’m already registered with. To cut to the chase, I went out this morning to register with one new agency and to update my details with the other.

First agency gave me a big wad of paperwork to fill out (don’t they all). No questions about tacho hours, road signs, or skill sets (roping sheeting etc), absolutely zilch. Never even asked if I had been in a road accident in the last few years, or had anything pending against me. Didn’t ask if I had my own maps or satnav, whether I had my DCPC or tacho card etc - absolutely nothing. Made me realise why they are so many questionable ‘drivers’ out there. Although they took a copy of my license, didn’t ask to see my DQC or tacho card so they can essentially be sending someone out that isn’t legit… :open_mouth:

Getting further through the paperwork, I came across mention of Fairgate Commercial Contracting Ltd. I called the recruitment guy over and asked him if this was a travel or subsistence scheme or umbrella? Turns out it is umbrella and paperwork put in all the packs, as it seems some of their clients will only take people on through umbrella. I pointed out I wouldn’t be undertaking any work through this scheme as there were clauses in there about folks paying damages for accidents and loss of business, incidentally this also applied to production workers etc not just driving. I also had to point out it didn’t mention anywhere people would have to pay to have their payroll processed, which was £18 incidentally.

OK, onto the second agency, which I am already registered with for non driving work. Took copy of my license, then slightly more professionally took copy of my DQC and Tacho Card. Still didn’t ask if I’d had any accidents in the last few years, or had anything pending against me, or ask me any questions about driving or skill sets whatsoever.

At this stage I will point out that both these agencies are part of larger chains, that obviously haven’t invested in training their staff in the legal consequences of supplying transport staff. The hirer is (incorrectly) assuming that the agency has checked over all the documentation, assured themselves the driver is ‘fit for purpose’ and has the required knowledge to carry out the task correctly, which of course is simply not the case. In effect, the hirer is getting shafted too. I know some hauliers will check to see if temp drivers have DQC and tacho cards, but that won’t be the case in all situations.

It’s a worrying trend when badly run agencies not only putting drivers out there that may not have the skill set to perform their job safely, but they also putting others at risk too, including other road users. :unamused:

Does anyone else think agencies are becoming far more unprofessional than they ever used to be?

2

When I worked briefly at Sainsbury’s last year there was a polish guy on the assessment with me, turns out he had a clean licence so agency sent him in, Sainsbury’s checked with DVLA who must work with polish DVLA and found he was banned in Poland.

3

LIBERTY_GUY:
There is a permanent hgv driving job being advertised by three separate driving agencies, one of whom I’m already registered with. To cut to the chase, I went out this morning to register with one new agency and to update my details with the other.

First agency gave me a big wad of paperwork to fill out (don’t they all). No questions about tacho hours, road signs, or skill sets (roping sheeting etc), absolutely zilch. Never even asked if I had been in a road accident in the last few years, or had anything pending against me. Didn’t ask if I had my own maps or satnav, whether I had my DCPC or tacho card etc - absolutely nothing. Made me realise why they are so many questionable ‘drivers’ out there. Although they took a copy of my license, didn’t ask to see my DQC or tacho card so they can essentially be sending someone out that isn’t legit… :open_mouth:

Getting further through the paperwork, I came across mention of Fairgate Commercial Contracting Ltd. I called the recruitment guy over and asked him if this was a travel or subsistence scheme or umbrella? Turns out it is umbrella and paperwork put in all the packs, as it seems some of their clients will only take people on through umbrella. I pointed out I wouldn’t be undertaking any work through this scheme as there were clauses in there about folks paying damages for accidents and loss of business, incidentally this also applied to production workers etc not just driving. I also had to point out it didn’t mention anywhere people would have to pay to have their payroll processed, which was £18 incidentally.

OK, onto the second agency, which I am already registered with for non driving work. Took copy of my license, then slightly more professionally took copy of my DQC and Tacho Card. Still didn’t ask if I’d had any accidents in the last few years, or had anything pending against me, or ask me any questions about driving or skill sets whatsoever.

At this stage I will point out that both these agencies are part of larger chains, that obviously haven’t invested in training their staff in the legal consequences of supplying transport staff. The hirer is (incorrectly) assuming that the agency has checked over all the documentation, assured themselves the driver is ‘fit for purpose’ and has the required knowledge to carry out the task correctly, which of course is simply not the case. In effect, the hirer is getting shafted too. I know some hauliers will check to see if temp drivers have DQC and tacho cards, but that won’t be the case in all situations.

It’s a worrying trend when badly run agencies not only putting drivers out there that may not have the skill set to perform their job safely, but they also putting others at risk too, including other road users. :unamused:

Does anyone else think agencies are becoming far more unprofessional than they ever used to be?

half the time the ‘staff’ have been on a basic course know nothing about transport or haulage and just want you out of there. I will be honest and say I do a visual check of the licence dcpcp and digi cards and then am lucky enough to be able to input your details into a dvla linked system so don’t need to worry about ‘pending’ etc, however had you not disclosed it I would be questioning your own integrity. skill sets are pointless unless you know what you are on about, if you went into 50 agencies and said you can do a dolly they would more than likely look blank at you, yes you can tick a box but I prefer to have a good 5-10-15 min chat about your history of driving (we all know drivers love to talk so this often gleens far more info than ticking boxes).

I also ask the driver if the want to go our are paye/ltd and if they ask I will try to explain the differences (I never have and never will force people onto a scheme that isn’t right for the person).

I heard a conversation yesterday when calling for a reference where a driving ‘consultant’ was saying he cant finish at that time (12 hours after starting) once I had mentioned 15 hours he was corrected.

maybe I am a one off but I know I try my best can walk and talk the talk and have quite a nice loyal bunch of lads.

4

war1974:
I also ask the driver if the want to go our are paye/ltd and if they ask I will try to explain the differences (I never have and never will force people onto a scheme that isn’t right for the person).

Do you tell them that what the extra you pay for Limited does not come close to compensating them for the additional cost/losses, that if they do say a couple of days in a week doing 10hrs a day because of the fees its basically works out a quid an hour just for the fees and that under the 2014 tax changes in regards to agency legislation that because they’re under the supervision, direction or control of the client that it doesn’t actually qualify for self employment and that at some point in the future they could be landed with a tax bill for all the things they’ve been claiming as expenses?

There isn’t a single employment agency in the entire UK where agency drivers on Limited meet the 2014 rule changes because if someone in the traffic office tells the driver what they’re doing then they’re considered to be under the control of the client. Its even more of a violation of the regulations if the client tells the driver how to do the job such as what paperwork they wanted filling out, the routes they wanted them to take, the use of Microlise or similar.

You may want to do some reading. I doubt there’s a single agency which is safe in this country other than those who do not offer self employed in any shape or form.

gov.uk/government/uploads/s … amples.pdf

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Conor:

war1974:
I also ask the driver if the want to go our are paye/ltd and if they ask I will try to explain the differences (I never have and never will force people onto a scheme that isn’t right for the person).

Do you tell them that what the extra you pay for Limited does not come close to compensating them for the additional cost/losses, that if they do say a couple of days in a week doing 10hrs a day because of the fees its basically works out a quid an hour just for the fees and that under the 2014 tax changes in regards to agency legislation that because they’re under the supervision, direction or control of the client that it doesn’t actually qualify for self employment and that at some point in the future they could be landed with a tax bill for all the things they’ve been claiming as expenses?

I can’t wait until your agency gets hammered under the 2014 agency legislation. There isn’t a single employment agency in the entire UK where agency drivers on Limited meet the 2014 rule changes because if someone in the traffic office tells the driver what they’re doing then they’re considered to be under the control of the client. Its even more of a violation of the regulations if the client tells the driver how to do the job such as what paperwork they wanted filling out, the routes they wanted them to take, the use of Microlise or similar.

You may want to do some reading. I doubt there’s a single agency which is safe in this country other than those who do not offer self employed in any shape or form.

gov.uk/government/uploads/s … amples.pdf

sorry conor I will trust the lawyers and the like that work for us, and as I stated I will ask them and try to explain the differences, NOVA for one were hammered last year and assessed and had to make major changes to what they were offering, I doubt they will come back that quick. even so am sure our business which has run for over 60 years will survive, but thanks for the hatred/concern you display.

I do always wonder when you chip in with these things why you work as a hgv agency driver when your talents and contacts are as good as yours are?

6

war1974:
half the time the ‘staff’ have been on a basic course know nothing about transport or haulage and just want you out of there. I will be honest and say I do a visual check of the licence dcpcp and digi cards and then am lucky enough to be able to input your details into a dvla linked system so don’t need to worry about ‘pending’ etc, however had you not disclosed it I would be questioning your own integrity. skill sets are pointless unless you know what you are on about, if you went into 50 agencies and said you can do a dolly they would more than likely look blank at you, yes you can tick a box but I prefer to have a good 5-10-15 min chat about your history of driving (we all know drivers love to talk so this often gleens far more info than ticking boxes).

maybe I am a one off but I know I try my best can walk and talk the talk and have quite a nice loyal bunch of lads.

To be fair, the staff at both agencies this morning were both friendly and polite, albeit somewhat clueless about vocational driving in general.

Whilst I realistically wouldn’t expect a typical office worker to know what a dolly hitch was, or how to secure bright bar without dropping it all over the Queens highway, without basic question asking, even in a tick box format, they will never know if the driver has any comprehension of legal requirements, or if they have the skill set the client is looking for. To not even check if a driver has a DQC or digi tacho card, could end up with the hirer getting fined too, which isn’t good news.

I try to keep an open mind about agencies, but with so many of them trying to push these questionable (often borderline illegal) umbrella schemes and the like, they are slowly losing the respect of many temporary workers out there.

7

we have 2 separate tests one for vans and one for hgv’s. both I think are fairly basic but the amount of people who get more than 3 wrong is quite high (30mph being a minimum speed limit is one).

I prefer the whole chatting and questioning a driver over asking them to tick boxes but then again I am a driver more than a recruiter.

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war1974:
we have 2 separate tests one for vans and one for hgv’s. both I think are fairly basic but the amount of people who get more than 3 wrong is quite high (30mph being a minimum speed limit is one).

I prefer the whole chatting and questioning a driver over asking them to tick boxes but then again I am a driver more than a recruiter.

Just out of curiosity what do you mean by 30 being the minimum ?

Plenty of places now 20mph and some rural place I went through was 15 for couple of hundred yards., though not sure that was a proper limit as such but 20 certainly was

9

war1974:
we have 2 separate tests one for vans and one for hgv’s. both I think are fairly basic but the amount of people who get more than 3 wrong is quite high (30mph being a minimum speed limit is one).

I prefer the whole chatting and questioning a driver over asking them to tick boxes but then again I am a driver more than a recruiter.

I agree with you about the driver skills chat War 74, once they start chatting, it’s difficult to get them to stop!. Only 12 questions on the form from my small Driving Agency, but they are essential to discover drivers with ‘real world’ knowledge and drivers who may need a little more help and attention!

Here is Q4 of 12:
You arrive at your collection point. Your truck has a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 44000kg. Your planner has told you to load 26 pallets of tinned beans onto your vehicle. Each pallet weighs 750kg. Your maximum legal payload is 18 tonnes. Can you legally load all 26 pallets? YES or NO. If you answered YES what would the total weight of the vehicle be?. If you answered NO, what is the maximum number of pallets can you load to stay within your legal weight limit and how heavy would the vehicle be?

and Q4 is one of the easier ones!.. lol

Some drivers complain about it being ‘degrading’ to answer all 12 questions then get loads of wrong answers. lol :blush:

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contractdriver:
Here is Q4 of 12:
You arrive at your collection point. Your truck has a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 44000kg. Your planner has told you to load 26 pallets of tinned beans onto your vehicle. Each pallet weighs 750kg. Your maximum legal payload is 18 tonnes. Can you legally load all 26 pallets? YES or NO. If you answered YES what would the total weight of the vehicle be?. If you answered NO, what is the maximum number of pallets can you load to stay within your legal weight limit and how heavy would the vehicle be?
:

Made me chuckle that one. Funny how some drivers can’t calculate this one but God can’t they calculate wages and anything missing to the penny in seconds!

As that old joke goes - if you can’t do arithmetic how are you going to work out your dole benefits [emoji6]

11

dcgpx:

contractdriver:
Here is Q4 of 12:
You arrive at your collection point. Your truck has a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 44000kg. Your planner has told you to load 26 pallets of tinned beans onto your vehicle. Each pallet weighs 750kg. Your maximum legal payload is 18 tonnes. Can you legally load all 26 pallets? YES or NO. If you answered YES what would the total weight of the vehicle be?. If you answered NO, what is the maximum number of pallets can you load to stay within your legal weight limit and how heavy would the vehicle be?
:

I would expect the planner to have already worked out all this ■■■■■ and made sure he was sending the right motor for the job. A 44 tonner should ■■■■ 26 pallets of 750kg apiece but I would question why the 44 tonner only has a payload of 18 tons. Or have I missed summat?

12

war1974:
I do always wonder when you chip in with these things why you work as a hgv agency driver when your talents and contacts are as good as yours are?

I work as an agency HGV driver because I’m disabled due to a serious inoperable spinal injury and not able to work full time and I don’t know from one day to the next if I am able to work. I could go self employed again but when you have to tell your clients you can’t do a full week on a regular basis they tend to not be your clients for long. As it is I have a job with an agency which is work I know is within the capabilities of my disability and which is booked on a daily basis. The reason I don’t do that through an umbrella or Ltd is that I’ve seen the writing on the wall from HMRC and unlike your company I don’t live in denial with an “it won’t happen to us” attitude.

I don’t actually have to work. I have enough money and could sit on disability benefits for the rest of my life if I chose to but the boredom of it drives me insane so I work as and when I can and want.

Happy now?

13

not really! have had my back operated on so have possibly a far reduced idea of the consequences.

like I say conor the business has survived numerous legislation changes over the 60 + years we have been about, somehow I think we will be fine. seeing as its only if a driver comes in asking we provide the people who can supply ltd etc. we don’t force people onto schemes like several others who no doubt lots of members on here work for.

regarding the 30 minimum for whoever asked - we have the old 30 speed limit sign and the amount that put it is the minimum speed limit not the maximum then argue when you point out its wrong is quite high.

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war1974:
the business has survived numerous legislation changes over the 60 + years we have been about, somehow I think we will be fine. seeing as its only if a driver comes in asking we provide the people who can supply ltd etc. we don’t force people onto schemes like several others who no doubt lots of members on here work for.

To put things into perspective, my ‘other’ trade is an electrical engineer. Much of what I do working on control panels is temporary/contractual, but since the downturn, has been with bigger gaps in between contracts. Many of these agencies are now spouting ‘the customer only wants people via umbrella’ tosh, for that type of work too. i.e. PAYE NOT an option. Many people like myself refuse point blank to be railroaded into these umbrella schemes and refuse to accept work under those conditions. I don’t know the legal position, but in an ideal world I would like to see agencies fined if they refuse to offer a PAYE option.

15

totally agree its a choice and for some ltd/umbrella is by far the better option (to be honest if I was driving still I would be ltd), whereas paye suits a lot of people far more. what I don’t like is the whole making it shady in adverts like they are doing you a massive favour, its only useful to people it is useful for.

16

All the government has to do, via HMRC, is make payment through an umbrella system illegal - but that would affect a lot more folk farther up the food chain than lorry drivers. :wink: