Advice off the legal eagles

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

I have a doubt due to bad road markings, but, if you enter the roadabout at the end of Park Way in Trafford Park in the left lane, would you expect to go to Westinghouse Road with no right indication?
If someone was in the right lane on the roundabout, would it be reasonable to expect to be able to take the exit onto Village Way (2 lane exit, into the right lane) or would you expect the vehicle in the left lane to just carry on around the roundabout in the left lane turning right?

maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=53.46 … 9&t=h&z=18

This is the roundabout in question, 2 lanes enter roundabout from Park Way

2

I’m increasingly finding people in UK just use whichever lane they fancy for whatever exit they want these days.

3

I was always told to look at a roundabout as if it was a clock. After 12 right hand lane - before left lane.
Why would anyone go all the way round to W/house lane in the left lane from there? The mind boggles!

4

I was taught to look at ‘Primary Route’ rather than clock face, so from Park Way, Village Way is ‘Primary Route’ but is past 12 o’clock, but you’d reasonably expect the left lane to take either Ashburton Road, Tenax Road or Village Way.

5

waynedl:
I have a doubt due to bad road markings, but, if you enter the roadabout at the end of Park Way in Trafford Park in the left lane, would you expect to go to Westinghouse Road with no right indication?
If someone was in the right lane on the roundabout, would it be reasonable to expect to be able to take the exit onto Village Way (2 lane exit, into the right lane) or would you expect the vehicle in the left lane to just carry on around the roundabout in the left lane turning right?

maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=53.46 … 9&t=h&z=18

This is the roundabout in question, 2 lanes enter roundabout from Park Way

they’ve dumbed it down for halfwits to go round in two lanes! :unamused: :bulb: EVEN PROFESSIONAL HGV1 SCREWDRIVERS WILL GO ON YOUR INSIDE TO GO TO WESTINGHOUSE ROAD! Rat race = ENDEX :open_mouth: :imp:

6

Large vehicles can do it in the left lane with a right indicator on = perfectly legal

7

waynedl:
I have a doubt due to bad road markings, but, if you enter the roadabout at the end of Park Way in Trafford Park in the left lane, would you expect to go to Westinghouse Road with no right indication?

Unfortunately, It Seems The norm now for drivers to only use a left indicator ( If at all)

8

Guessing you’ve come to blows with someone. Have had a very similar thing and without anu witnesses ended up knock for knock.

Came into roundabout with a two lane entrance and exit straight on. I entered in the outside/right hand lane to then exit straight on still in the same lane*.

Tourist in a self drive car drove straight into the nearside as they were going right but were wrongly in the left hand lane and not indicating.

*I don’t normally do this as from experience a lot of drivers struggle with lanes at roundabouts and don’t seem to understand when there are two lanes in and out the right hand one can also be used for straight on. In this case I was immediately turning right after leaving the roundabout so needed to be in the right hand lane.

As I say I’m normally alert for this but there was such a constant stream of vehicles in front of me also leaving in that lane that it didn’t seem possible anyone would try and cut across it.

The other things that annoys me is Highways subverting the rules with their own markings. It should be set so everyone knows where they stand and local knowledge, for the correct lane, isn’t needed during busy periods. In summary right hand lane for turning right unless there is a dual carriageway.

9

davidj247:
I was always told to look at a roundabout as if it was a clock. After 12 right hand lane - before left lane.
Why would anyone go all the way round to W/house lane in the left lane from there? The mind boggles!

The only possibly valid excuse would be if it’s difficult to get back into the left lane to exit in busy periods due to additional traffic joining.

10

ROG:
Large vehicles can do it in the left lane with a right indicator on = perfectly legal

It was a Renault Clio - does this come under Large vehicles category? Oh, and no indication to the right (he also informed me he hadn’t indicated left either as he wasn’t leaving the roundabout :open_mouth: )

Own Account Driver:
Guessing you’ve come to blows with someone. Have had a very similar thing and without anu witnesses ended up knock for knock.

Came into roundabout with a two lane entrance and exit straight on. I entered in the outside/right hand lane to then exit straight on still in the same lane*.

Yes mate, unfortunately I was on my motorcycle and not in my truck and, after realising that the clown to my left was cutting round, I managed to do enough evasive action that I didn’t end up under the front of the car, but still hit the drivers side door and rear wing, sliding along the car until the car eventually moved out of my way, at which point my 260+ kg motorbike (CBR1000F for those that know them) decided to lie down on top of me.

11

Sorry to say this mate but I think your insurance may be taking a bump, if I’m understanding this correctly you crossed a broken white line to exit the roundabout on the assumption that the car driver on your left was also turning off the roundabout.

If he wasn’t turning off the roundabout he should have had his right indicator on, but rather than waiting to see that he was turning left you acted on an assumption that he would and that’s what caused the accident.

I’m sorry but that’s the way I’m reading it.

12

tachograph:
Sorry to say this mate but I think your insurance may be taking a bump, if I’m understanding this correctly you crossed a broken white line to exit the roundabout on the assumption that the car driver on your left was also turning off the roundabout.

If he wasn’t turning off the roundabout he should have had his right indicator on, but rather than waiting to see that he was turning left you acted on an assumption that he would and that’s what caused the accident.

I’m sorry but that’s the way I’m reading it.

Is there an actual rule called give way to anything that’s not indicating though?

I’m sure worst case is only knock for knock. At the end of the day the Clio was in the wrong lane and also not indicating. Wayne’s mistake was not having a crystal ball.

I seem to recall on one of Beechris’s videos of his terrible driving he ploughed into a woman cutting across just like this, and even though there was clearly potential to avoid it, the dashcam footage meant she was held at fault.

13

tachograph:
Sorry to say this mate but I think your insurance may be taking a bump, if I’m understanding this correctly you crossed a broken white line to exit the roundabout on the assumption that the car driver on your left was also turning off the roundabout.

If he wasn’t turning off the roundabout he should have had his right indicator on, but rather than waiting to see that he was turning left you acted on an assumption that he would and that’s what caused the accident.

I’m sorry but that’s the way I’m reading it.

Yes, basically, hence the thread existing…

I was actually in front of the car, but not clear enough that I’d have made the exit without impact, so as I started to exit, I noticed the car was still coming around, but 260kg of motorbike + 100kg of me isn’t going to stop the momentum going left and alter it to a right turn quick enough, so I grabbed a fist full of brake and stood the bike up to get full braking (including a few locked wheels) to try and avoid the car and maybe slide behind it, but it also slowed down too and so I collided with it around 1/2 way down the car.

As you can see in this pic that shows my lost rubber, I was in a left turn at the time and then straightened the bike up, the gap in the rubber marks is from the impact where my tyres were no longer in contact with the ground, so LOTS of braking had occurred.

As I said in my opening post, the white lines DO continue round, this is a ■■■■ up in road marking in my opinion and has been noted in the past, but 2 lane entrance and 2 lane primary route exit should surely mean using BOTH lanes to go straight on, left lane can go exit 1, exit 2 or primary exit, leaving right lane for primary exit, exit 4 and all the way around the roundabout.

How, if someone doesn’t indicate right, is someone on their right supposed to know where the hell they’re going? Clairvoyance?

14

It looks like the sort of youth whose phone is glued to his hand so might have been on the mobile.

15

I always thought that the roundabout sign indicated who had priority, with the thickest line showing the primary route, or perhaps the twelve’oclock, if you want to use the clock analogy, meaning everything either side of that needed a right or left handed indicator, and the appropriate lane taken. I find it hard to believe that is legal, and that HGV learners are being taught that it is okay to remain in the nearside lane when turning right at a roundabout, and that as long as they are indicating, then it is okay? Perhaps it is legal…but it is asking for trouble, and it is basically doing what the prick in the car did to the bike.

Does anybody have a similar problem on the new access road to Wrexham Industrial Estate? sign clearly shows that the ind est is a right hand exit off the roundabout, and not the primary route, when coming from the bypass, but try and enter and exit it in the correct manner will mean being undertaken by everything, giving you no chance of getting back into the inside lane, or an accident if you happen not to notice somebody on your nearside. Do these people go out in the morning with the intention of causing an accident? Who in their right mind would undertake a truck at anytime? the risk of not being seen and the chance of an accident or being crushed is just too great.

16

Own Account Driver:

tachograph:
Sorry to say this mate but I think your insurance may be taking a bump, if I’m understanding this correctly you crossed a broken white line to exit the roundabout on the assumption that the car driver on your left was also turning off the roundabout.

If he wasn’t turning off the roundabout he should have had his right indicator on, but rather than waiting to see that he was turning left you acted on an assumption that he would and that’s what caused the accident.

I’m sorry but that’s the way I’m reading it.

Is there an actual rule called give way to anything that’s not indicating though?

I’m sure worst case is only knock for knock. At the end of the day the Clio was in the wrong lane and also not indicating. Wayne’s mistake was not having a crystal ball.

I seem to recall on one of Beechris’s videos of his terrible driving he ploughed into a woman cutting across just like this, and even though there was clearly potential to avoid it, the dashcam footage meant she was held at fault.

According to Google maps the lane the car was in went round the roundabout, it didn’t turn onto the exit road, therefore I suspect you’ll find that legally the car driver had a right to be in that lane.

Of course it makes no sense to be in the outside lane three quarters the way round the roundabout and it certainly isn’t what the highway code says you should do, but I’m not aware of it actually being illegal and that’s the problem.
The one thing the car driver did that was certainly wrong was to not signal his intentions to stay on the roundabout, but how that would affect the insurance claim I’ve no idea, but if I’m honest I wouldn’t be too optimistic because at the end of the day the OP changed lanes the car driver never.
Someone may prove me wrong though :wink:

As far as bee chris’s video is concerned, I’ve no idea who was held to be at fault by the insurance company but the situation was a bit different anyway.
The car driver in that video was in a lane that was clearly marked to go straight onto an exit road, the lane Chris’s lorry was in was marked for the same road ahead or to go round the roundabout, the woman driver pulled out of a clearly marked lane across the path of the lorry.

That’s not the same situation here where the outside lane on the roundabout is not specifically shown to go onto the exit road.

17

Those that change lane when not clear to do so will be in the wrong

Mitigating circumstances may be taken into account if the other driver was not acting in a reasonable manner

The same applies to the situation where one vehicle is passing another on the nearside

18

ROG:
Those that change lane when not clear to do so will be in the wrong

Mitigating circumstances may be taken into account if the other driver was not acting in a reasonable manner

The same applies to the situation where one vehicle is passing another on the nearside

So I’m screwed??

I did point out in my OP that the lane markings put doubts in my head, I was always taught that the white lines were like ‘give way’ and if you wanted to cross them, then you had to ‘give way’ to anything the other side of those white lines.
But, this road is clearly 2 lanes to go straight on, and nowhere on approach to the roundabout does it say “use both lanes for a right turn” or anything similar.
In fact, with the road markings the way they are, you actually CAN’T turn right onto Westinghouse Road from the right lane unless you went all the way around the roundabout which would be madness.
The only place the lines actually do what they’re supposed to do, and that’s corkscrew off, is back onto Park Way towards the M60 J9, other than that, they just do a complete circle.
Surely then, we only need 1 lane on all approach roads for that roundabout?

:unamused: :imp:

19

waynedl:
I did point out in my OP that the lane markings put doubts in my head, I was always taught that the white lines were like ‘give way’ and if you wanted to cross them, then you had to ‘give way’ to anything the other side of those white lines.

The white lines are lane separation lines, because they’re broken white lines like on any other road you can cross them when safe to do so, in this case it wasn’t safe to cross the white line and change lanes because you had no way of knowing where the car on your left was going.

waynedl:
But, this road is clearly 2 lanes to go straight on, and nowhere on approach to the roundabout does it say “use both lanes for a right turn” or anything similar.

That’s where you’re making a mistake, there are only two lanes and they both go right round the roundabout as far as Park Way, there’s no need for a sign because the lane markings speak for themselves.

If either of the lanes were specifically for vehicles to turn off the roundabout the lanes themselves would turn off the roundabout, the way the nearside lane does for the Park Way exit, in fact that’s the only exit on that roundabout where you could reasonably assume that the vehicle in the nearside lane was turning off the roundabout.

waynedl:
In fact, with the road markings the way they are, you actually CAN’T turn right onto Westinghouse Road from the right lane unless you went all the way around the roundabout which would be madness.

I’m not sure what you mean, but getting onto the roundabout at Park Way I would take the outside approach lane then get into the lane nearest the island and move to the nearside lane around the Village Way areas so I could turn off into Westinghouse Road, there shouldn’t be a problem.

waynedl:
The only place the lines actually do what they’re supposed to do, and that’s corkscrew off, is back onto Park Way towards the M60 J9, other than that, they just do a complete circle.
Surely then, we only need 1 lane on all approach roads for that roundabout?

Why would you say we only need 1 lane approach roads :confused:

There are two lanes on the roundabout and they can both be used safely if proper lane discipline is used, by proper lane discipline I mean you get into the most appropriate lane safely and in good time, and change lanes safely and in good time to get into the most appropriate lane for your exit from the roundabout, often that’s easier said than done on roundabouts but that’s just the way it is, in most cases unless the white lines show differently the most appropriate lane for exiting a roundabout is the nearside lane.
In your case, assuming the car had come from Park Way, the car driver was not in the most appropriate lane, but nor was you I’m afraid, the only real difference is that you moved into his lane when it wasn’t safe to do so.

20

tachograph:

waynedl:
In fact, with the road markings the way they are, you actually CAN’T turn right onto Westinghouse Road from the right lane unless you went all the way around the roundabout which would be madness.

I’m not sure what you mean, but getting onto the roundabout at Park Way I would take the outside approach lane then get into the lane nearest the island and move to the nearside lane around the Village Way areas so I could turn off into Westinghouse Road, there shouldn’t be a problem.

That’s exactly what I mean, so you’ve come from Park Way in the right lane, right indicator on, you’ve endered the roundabout into the lane nearest the island, you pass Village Way and there’s a stream of vehicles that have decided that’s the appropriate lane for Westinghouse Road, so you are stuck where you are…

Pointless having 2 lanes if they can’t both be used. There’s 2 lanes off onto Tenax Road too, but I wouldn’t expect to use the lane I was into go onto that because it wasn’t the primary route, Village Way IS

:unamused: