Surely something is going wrong with the H&S at the site from which the driver was loading this chemical. The company has a duty of care to whoever might be affected by its operations, so the collecting lorry driver and any members of the public nearby would be included under their responsibility. If lorries carrying newsprint etc are given a quick check over to ensure that the load will not be damaged by the condition of the trailer, then the same must be the case for those carrying hazardous product. The company should have refused to load the vehicle. If there had been an incident it would not just have been the lorry driver who would have been, presumably posthumously, held responsible.
Ok I am a bit nosey, I was actually working for the haulage company as I was emptying their drain pit, I wouldn’t normally just walk up to a driver and ask if he had an ADR but as I originally stated the driver was double checking everything and looked nervous I therefore asked if he was ok so that he could ask for help if he wanted to without looking stupid to FLT driver, (I also reminded him to put his safety pin in on his 5th wheel as he had missed it) though I didn’t put that in my original post as I didn’t want to slag the guy off, personally I’d rather help someone quietly than ignore them and them have a problem.
I am nosey in a very polite way no one has ever told me to get lost so again I can only assume its my tone.
I like people like winseer as he seems to have specific knowledge and I’m always open to learning something new.
I actually think the driver probably didn’t know what he had on board until he read the paperwork, the guy was a really nice guy probably just a little inexperienced, I certainly didn’t mean to slag anyone off or any company my question was are we having an influx of adr qualified drivers due to CPC training and are they maybe receiving less training than maybe we did years ago.
Or is it that maybe he didn’t care = I do not think this was the case in this situation
Had I known it was 1790 on board before he drove off I would have offered to lend him my orange book, I would not preach to him and I would certainly not tell him what to do but I would had I known offered him a helping hand. (by way of lending him my book)
The most important thing when loaded with 1790 is that you carry sufficient amounts of that Calcium Gluconate gel, which is essentially a poison antidote rather than some kind of acid neutralizer…
HF is actually very weak as an “acid”. Hydrochloric acid will corrode metals more - nitric and sulphuric acids will burn the skin more.
Getting HF solution 40-50% on the skin will make it itch, because it’s such a weak “acid”.
However, as a flourination agent - the flouride ions will go right through the skin, and combine with the calcium in the bones… Causing them to crumble away inside you! Washing the stuff off is no good, because HF is only slightly soluble in water.
Think: Being drenched in WD40 penetrating oil, and then trying to get it off you, without “spreading” it over even more of your body…
Calcium Gluconate gel allows one to splatter the affected area of skin with a wet source of calcium ions, which jump into combination with the flouride ions, leaving benign Calcium Flouride, and no more crap disintegrating your bones whilst you wait for an ambulance, lulled into a false sense of security because you’ve got under the shower, and the affected area is only “itching” rather than burning!..
Chalk Powder is more readily available, but is slower to act. This can be used on the spills on surfaces rather than on the body.
How many yards have got “spillage soak up” granules made up of Chalk grit rather than Fullers Earth, or some other absorbant material? (Fullers Earth doesn’t work neutralising HF at all!)
All your doing is giving the flouride some “replacement” Calcium to bite into, instead of your legs & arms!
Read this case study…
http://www.geo.utexas.edu/geosafety/hf-accident.html
Victims usually die from Kidney, and other organ failure from the shock of having one’s bones turn into marrow slush puppy inside them…
Diving into a swimming pool didn’t wash it off. Having his leg amputated didn’t save his life.
Horrible nasty stuff which I think a simple ADR qualification doesn’t go far enough in teaching people how to transport & handle properly imho.
I first came across HF at Wellcome Dartford in the mid 80’s where all kinds of strong acids were used as everyday reagents.
I’ve been splashed with Sulphuric, Hyrdrochloric, Nitric, and Formic acids over the period I was working as a lab technician. (still got the scars from Oleum H2SO4 & 63% HNO3!)
I’m most glad I never got splashed with Hydroflouric Acid (ANY concentration!) though, along with that other often-handled nasty corrosive poison - Phenol which are pink Crystals (looks like road grit) which melt in your hand, absorb through the skin, burn and poison you…
I decided not to get my ADR earlier this year - because it was not going to get me onto tankers - just high liability loads for the same money as before. No deal!
Sometimes it’s better to have the knowledge without the qualification - than the opposite, as the newbie driver did in this thread… 
F-reds:
Out of curiosity, as I know nothing about ADR, are you saying that because it was wet outside that this should have been loaded inside?
The correct, and safest prodedure would be to load it under a canopy…
Inside - and you run the risk of being poisoned by fumes from a burst container - especially if an uneducated or unaware forkie has done it…
Outside - and you risk the trailer bed getting wet, so you can’t tell if any container is leaking or not - as depicted in other posts.
I don’t think I’d like to see any kind of hazchem stuff being loaded on top deck either! 
Just think… If we talk about ADR and Rant about it enough, we might actually get onto the second page without going “off-topic”… 
Winseer may I thank you for sharing your exceptional knowledge
Another question.
In your opinion
When a driver reaches his destination with say a toxic on board (packages) should he/she pull back the curtains and allow the flt’s to do their job or should he at least mask & glove up inspect the trailer underneath and then inside for potential leaks prior to opening the curtains.
I used to mask up & check when I carried such products always got laughed at so always assumed other drivers didn’t do it.
I recall in my training something about only ADR drivers can get prosecuted for a particular offence I cant recall what it is but I think it must be something like injury through negligence, do you have any knowledge of this ?
Due to this thread I have been reading my book, I read that all persons involved in the carriage of DG must be trained therefore forkies must be trained ?
In my opinion, the most likely cause of an accident whilst loading/unloading would be due to a mistake by the FLD rather than the driver pulling back the curtains, or something similar. Because the FLD is some distance away from say, a pierced plastic bottle on a pallet - It’s the driver pulling back any curtains who’s going to get something spilt on them from FLD’s mistake or negligance. If a bottle has burst in transit, then being suited up as you pull the curtains back means you’ll get splashed on your PPE.
A decent yard would have “chalk powder” readily available to put on spills, including ones on PPE.
Chalk powder also doubles up as an acid neutralizer, so can be used on other acid spills as well. The mixture will fizz up with Carbon Dioxide gas, which in the open air is pretty harmless. No more dangerous than using a CO2 type fire extinguisher. Because of the danger of already-airbourne reagent however, it would be a good idea if the PPE included at least a regular Gas Mask - Full Breathing apparatus is probably not practical, but Gas Mask overalls are a lot cheaper by comparison.
The Calcium Gel I mentioned is what you put on actual skin splashes purely for 1790 spills. Other chemical liquids have their own remedy, which obviously needs to be studied, and people made aware - assuming they don’t know already. Not everyone can be a “'A” student of the chemistry involved after all. Constant reminders are needed imho - to keep H&S up-to-scratch. Back in the '80s as a Lab Tech, we used to use Petrol to wash off Bromine spills on the skin - something that probably would NOT be approved of today, since Petrol itself is of course a Hazchem in it’s own right. Flowers of Sulphur (powder) was used to dump on Mercury Metal spills. These days, you’re likely to have plod make a call if you attempt to acquire flowers of sulphur though (post 9/11 paranoia - you can make bombs out of it!) - leaving small outfits with the problem of “are we safe to handle Mercury?”
I would suit up therefore - not so much for legal reasons, but because I don’t fancy dying in a horrible way. ‘Not suiting up’ is going to be like playing blind mans buff on the M1 by comparison… That’s just what I’d do anyway.
If I was a FLD, I’d expect to be well-trained in all the difference things I’m expected to handle on my forks. It makes sense therefore that ForkLiftDrivers should have qualifications or training in those depots that have a regular contract of handling the really dangerous stuff.
I would imagine the Health & Safety Executive would go bananas - if they found out a depot was “cutting corners” when dealing with stuff that is dangerous to not just those close by, but to emergency workers attempting to rescue someone say, in a coma in the danger zone. If THEY don’t know what they are dealing with, it’s possible for police/medics/fireman etc to get a lethal dose - because no one has made them aware of what danger they face. This might be the case if dangerous goods are unloaded with only junior staff about, no managers, underqualified persons operating FLTs, etc.
“Safe Handling” isn’t just about suiting up therefore - it’s got to be about “knowing what to do in the event of a spill/direct contact injury” - since lives literally depend on someone knowing
(1) what the remedy is (if any)
(2) how to apply it (perhaps a depot first aider would be trained thus?)
and
(3) how to deal with other persons in the vacinity, keeping people back, etc before the emergency services arise.
I reckon it would be a good idea too to educate drivers who have not done an ADR course - as part of their regular DCPC training!
…The idea of actually learning something useful, rather than “how to do something you’ve done spotlessly for yonks already” appeals… 
Gross negligence upon the individual (which can lead to a personal manslaughter charge against the employee if someone dies)
Corporate Manslaughter if the company was deemed to be at fault when someone dies (inadequate training, no senior staff present, offsite staff not inducted, etc etc)
I don’t know of any charges outside of these two I’m afraid.
I understand that depots are supposed to have a relevant safety officer - but I can’t imagine many firms having say, three of them - thus providing around-the-clock cover? 
This sounds like “Awkward Question 63” to ask the suits next time there’s any kind of sit-down meeting between staff and management…
Here’s a thought… If you asked for a protective outfit with gas mask - and the firm turned you down flat - are they, the yard, committing an offence under the health & safety at work act? If you refused to work without proper gear provided, and you were then dismissed for not providing it yourself - do you have a case for unfair dismissal? Is anyone objecting to lax H&S procedures a whilstle blower?
I’m better at Chemistry than I am at law to be sure… I’m already being ripped to shreds on another thread, due to my ignorance in all the underhand skullduggery that goes on in the name of “what’s legal for suits”… 
Left hand down!:
So it’s a company and haulage firm that has [zb] all to do with you and you’re quizzing the driver about whether he’s got his ADR ticket or not, then you start sticking your beak in about the load itself which also has [zb] all to do with you. How about you mind your own business and let him get on with his? I think you got off lightly. I’d have told you to [zb] off, personally.
its bout the Danger to General Public
Muckspreader:
In your opinion
When a driver reaches his destination with say a toxic on board (packages) should he/she pull back the curtains and allow the flt’s to do their job or should he at least mask & glove up inspect the trailer underneath and then inside for potential leaks prior to opening the curtains.
I used to mask up & check when I carried such products always got laughed at
This thread just gets better.
How about they giving ADR License to Driver with Beard.
Mask doesn’t help much if you not shaved,as we know from Time by the Army.
Immigrant:
How about they giving ADR License to Driver with Beard.
Mask doesn’t help much if you not shaved,as we know from Time by the Army.
Indeed. Judging by the “haven’t seen a razor this morning/week” appearance from some drivers you see climbing out of the cab there’s a great many ADR drivers who are going to find that their mask doesn’t actually seal.
That’s a good solid argument there…
I remember at Wellcome - there were signs up around the lab saying things like “DO NOT BITE YOUR NAILS!”
If you turned up for work with broken fingernails for any reason, then it was considered that you could handle a poison that wearing rubber didn’t protect you from (eg. heavy metal compounds) and then run the risk of scratching someone (or yourself!) with effectively a poisoned jagged fingernail… Sounds like a daft way to die sure - but the signs suggested this risk was taken very seriously indeed!
“No beards” makes perfect sense to someone who’s done gas mask training in the forces therefore…
Dimethyl Mercury for example, goes right through rubber gloves. A single drop on your gloved hand getting through to the skin will poison you in a way that makes in go totally senile over coming months… Another “absorbed through the skin” poison. like HF and C5H6OH.
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/dimethylmercury/dmmh.htm
Note the bottom line:
So chemistry is a dangerous subject?
Doing chemistry is safe, much safer than driving a car. A chemistry laboratory is about the safest place in a school or university, far safer than the sports field. It is only by ceaseless vigilance and attention to safety that it remains so.
So many fatalities are caused by someone not knowing or not following procedure on our driving jobs too… I’m one of those who believes you “Can’t be too careful - ever…”
Note how it didn’t actually seem to be “known” in up-to-date H&S procedures in the case study links - that Hg(CH3)2
could penetrate a rubber glove - until then! It’s a learning curve even for a Professor of Chemistry - and no one can be complacent about H&S - ever.
Has anyone on here ever been paid more after getting adi qualified? I think its like the manual handling course. Just a way of stopping you claiming against the company because you ‘did the course so we are covered’. If the public only knew what nasties were being transported around on the roads.
viking7000:
Has anyone on here ever been paid more after getting adi qualified? I think its like the manual handling course. Just a way of stopping you claiming against the company because you ‘did the course so we are covered’. If the public only knew what nasties were being transported around on the roads.
Yep, I have a poopa scoopa, so we get contaminated loads, as we are unaware of the quantity it has to be treated as if the whole load is the hazard.
I charge more for adr work
Actually the more serious the contamination the more we charge, sometimes customers think they can get away with it by saying its a tiny amount of “x” we generally have to treat a contamination as if it’s the worst scenario so full PPE, mask, boots gloves suit, wash down seal off its only when we get the product back from the lab we know what it was.
We also do clinical waste which is lovely (not) as all drivers have to be signed up on a hepatitis program we charge more as they lose a day a year just for that, many years ago I had a PEP done (they pasteurise your blood) because you may have contracted a life changing disease, it has to be done that day and I lost 11 days
So I for one would not sell myself short or our drivers.
Agencies pay more for ADR so why shouldn’t your company.
Have you ever thought about the risks involved ? not just to you, the public, the truck, your career
I was lucky i only carried Class 1.
If it leaked or started smoking it was SOP to dial 999 and get out of the area warning others.
It’s all down to the training you get, i was lucky mine was done by the Army and first class.
We also went under further training to do with security and the potential of hijacking.
All down to common sense backed up by good training.
if it starts leaking, get out of there ■■■■■■■ fast!
Driver-Once-More:
if it starts leaking, get out of there [zb] fast!
…Not enough - if the leak then kills the emergency services attending the scene!
Muckspreader:
So I for one would not sell myself short or our drivers.
thanx