Next week she has (i still cant drive) 12 pallets of phosphoric acid de ruster in 750ml spray bottles ear marked for our drop and swop from Calais. Im not ADR. Apparently its domestic non professional use stuff so likely well diluted anyway. Question is…can this be carried non ADR Lq?
Edit- the rest of the load is 1t bulk bag plastic granules…
AndrewG:
Next week she has (i still cant drive) 12 pallets of phosphoric acid de ruster in 750ml spray bottles ear marked for our drop and swop from Calais. Im not ADR. Apparently its domestic non professional use stuff so likely well diluted anyway. Question is…can this be carried non ADR Lq?
Edit- the rest of the load is 1t bulk bag plastic granules…
Hi Andrew,
Sorry mate, but there’s not enough info for me to be able to give you an accurate answer.
I’d need the following from the consignor please:
- UN number
- Proper Shipping Name
- UN Class
- UN Packing Group
- Total gross mass
The consignor is supposed to give you this information and state whether it’s LQ before shipment.
ADR 3.4.12
In advance of carriage, consignors of dangerous goods packed in limited quantities shall inform the carrier in a traceable form of the total gross mass of such goods to be consigned.
At a complete guess… the package size is suggestive of LQ, but it could well be that the substance is so dilute that it doesn’t even get into the league.
A phone call or email to the consignor will clarify this for you, then I’ll be able to tell you what the score is with it. 
It’ll be fine Dave/Andrew, the LQ provision for phosphoric is 5ltr.
khdgsa:
It’ll be fine Dave/Andrew, the LQ provision for phosphoric is 5ltr.
I was thinking that too, but I couldn’t see “de ruster” in the DG list, and maybe there’s an NOS or secondary hazard knocking about somewhere in the real PSN too.
Given that Andrew is a carrier, I thought he needs a little help to be asking the right questions of the consignor, cos some of 'em are very economic with the info they give out, or they are just plain slippery.
One of my customers is having this exact ‘lack of info’ trouble with temperature controlled 5.2s 
dieseldave:
khdgsa:
It’ll be fine Dave/Andrew, the LQ provision for phosphoric is 5ltr.I was thinking that too, but I couldn’t see “de ruster” in the DG list, and maybe there’s an NOS or secondary hazard knocking about somewhere in the real PSN too.
Given that Andrew is a carrier, I thought he needs a little help to be asking the right questions of the consignor, cos some of 'em are very economic with the info they give out, or they are just plain slippery.
Will find out the relevant info and post it up DD. I only got this second hand through a phone call from the traffic office.Im still at home but will get them to email it over to me.
Ps- its not only the consignors that can be slippery, my place is on the same level… 
DP//
Diesel Dave, ive got it in email. Ive been given the wrong info mate, its not phospshoric acid but Sulphamic acid Its still as mentioned though a rust remover. UN number 2967. The total mass is 9000litres in 750ml trigger spray bottles on 12 pallets. Ive translated the packing info label.
Danger warnings- Do not use on marble, natural stones or painted wood. For use on painted or new/unusual surfaces test on a small area first. Rinse well after use on plastic, ali and enamel. Danger- Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. Contains Sulphamic Acid 5%, C9-11 Pareth -8. Keep out of reach of children; Wear protective gloves; wear eye or face protection. Do not breath dust or mist. If swallowed Rinse mouth. Do not induce vomiting If on skin or hair take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water, shower. Immediately call a poison center or physician.If inhaled- Remove person to fresh air and keep comfortable for breathing.If in eyes- Rinse with water for several minutes. Remove contact lenses if present .Continue rinsing. Store locked up and upright. Dispose of used up container in accordance with local regulation.
Hope this is the info you need DD but as of now its all i have…
AndrewG:
Diesel Dave, ive got it in email. Ive been given the wrong info mate, its not phospshoric acid but Sulphamic acid Its still as mentioned though a rust remover. UN number 2967. The total mass is 9000litres in 750ml trigger spray bottles on 12 pallets. Ive translated the packing info label.
Danger warnings- Do not use on marble, natural stones or painted wood. For use on painted or new/unusual surfaces test on a small area first. Rinse well after use on plastic, ali and enamel. Danger- Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. Contains Sulphamic Acid 5%, C9-11 Pareth -8. Keep out of reach of children; Wear protective gloves; wear eye or face protection. Do not breath dust or mist. If swallowed Rinse mouth. Do not induce vomiting If on skin or hair take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water, shower. Immediately call a poison center or physician.If inhaled- Remove person to fresh air and keep comfortable for breathing.If in eyes- Rinse with water for several minutes. Remove contact lenses if present .Continue rinsing. Store locked up and upright. Dispose of used up container in accordance with local regulation.Hope this is the info you need DD but as of now its all i have…
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the correct info.
You are carrying:
UN 2967 SULPHAMIC ACID, 8, PGIII
The LQ size for this is 5kg, so I imagine that it’s being shipped as a solution given that you’ve said it’s in 750ml trigger sprays. Evan so, you’re OK to carry that consignment if it’s packaged as they’ve described.
Since the gross mass of the consignment exceeds 8t and your permitted vehicle GVW exceeds 12t, you will need one of these on the front of your vehicle and another on the rear. The size is 250mm X 250mm.
The only other ADR requirement is that the driver has had some (documented) ADR awareness training, although a ‘proper’ ADR licence is NOT required.
Make sure that your CMR has something written on it to the effect that the load is packaged as LQs.
dieseldave:
AndrewG:
Diesel Dave, ive got it in email. Ive been given the wrong info mate, its not phospshoric acid but Sulphamic acid Its still as mentioned though a rust remover. UN number 2967. The total mass is 9000litres in 750ml trigger spray bottles on 12 pallets. Ive translated the packing info label.
Danger warnings- Do not use on marble, natural stones or painted wood. For use on painted or new/unusual surfaces test on a small area first. Rinse well after use on plastic, ali and enamel. Danger- Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. Contains Sulphamic Acid 5%, C9-11 Pareth -8. Keep out of reach of children; Wear protective gloves; wear eye or face protection. Do not breath dust or mist. If swallowed Rinse mouth. Do not induce vomiting If on skin or hair take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water, shower. Immediately call a poison center or physician.If inhaled- Remove person to fresh air and keep comfortable for breathing.If in eyes- Rinse with water for several minutes. Remove contact lenses if present .Continue rinsing. Store locked up and upright. Dispose of used up container in accordance with local regulation.Hope this is the info you need DD but as of now its all i have…
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the correct info.
You are carrying:
UN 2967 SULPHAMIC ACID, 8, PGIII
The LQ size for this is 5kg, so I imagine that it’s being shipped as a solution given that you’ve said it’s in 750ml trigger sprays. Evan so, you’re OK to carry that consignment if it’s packaged as they’ve described.
Since the gross mass of the consignment exceeds 8t and your permitted vehicle GVW exceeds 12t, you will need one of these on the front of your vehicle and another on the rear. The size is 250mm X 250mm.
0
The only other ADR requirement is that the driver has had some (documented) ADR awareness training, although a ‘proper’ ADR licence is NOT required.
Thanks for that Dave, youve been a great help (again)
Will be out tomorrow to collect a couple of the hazchem signs and ive also emailed the transport office to get the relevant LQ info printed onto the CMR. Its not due to be picked up until weds morning but the missus has her mind at rest too, worried re taking it if it wasnt all above board…
Cheers
AndrewG:
dieseldave:
AndrewG:
Diesel Dave, ive got it in email. Ive been given the wrong info mate, its not phospshoric acid but Sulphamic acid Its still as mentioned though a rust remover. UN number 2967. The total mass is 9000litres in 750ml trigger spray bottles on 12 pallets. Ive translated the packing info label.
Danger warnings- Do not use on marble, natural stones or painted wood. For use on painted or new/unusual surfaces test on a small area first. Rinse well after use on plastic, ali and enamel. Danger- Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. Contains Sulphamic Acid 5%, C9-11 Pareth -8. Keep out of reach of children; Wear protective gloves; wear eye or face protection. Do not breath dust or mist. If swallowed Rinse mouth. Do not induce vomiting If on skin or hair take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water, shower. Immediately call a poison center or physician.If inhaled- Remove person to fresh air and keep comfortable for breathing.If in eyes- Rinse with water for several minutes. Remove contact lenses if present .Continue rinsing. Store locked up and upright. Dispose of used up container in accordance with local regulation.Hope this is the info you need DD but as of now its all i have…
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the correct info.
You are carrying:
UN 2967 SULPHAMIC ACID, 8, PGIII
The LQ size for this is 5kg, so I imagine that it’s being shipped as a solution given that you’ve said it’s in 750ml trigger sprays. Evan so, you’re OK to carry that consignment if it’s packaged as they’ve described.
Since the gross mass of the consignment exceeds 8t and your permitted vehicle GVW exceeds 12t, you will need one of these on the front of your vehicle and another on the rear. The size is 250mm X 250mm.
0
The only other ADR requirement is that the driver has had some (documented) ADR awareness training, although a ‘proper’ ADR licence is NOT required.
Thanks for that Dave, youve been a great help (again)
Will be out tomorrow to collect a couple of the hazchem signs and ive also emailed the transport office to get the relevant LQ info printed onto the CMR. Its not due to be picked up until weds morning but the missus has her mind at rest too, worried re taking it if it wasnt all above board…
Cheers
Hi Andrew,
I’m glad for you that we’ve got this sorted.
Sorry for my cautious approach, but remembering how the company messed you about last time with that other job, I thought it best to get you to be asking the right questions.
We’ve got this one nailed now, so your good lady needn’t have any worries about the things we’ve covered.
Dave’s ADR tip:
Once LQs are correctly identified, packaged, labelled and documented, your vehicle just needs the two signs as in my post above if you’re carrying >8t.
Nothing else in ADR applies apart from the driver needing some documented ADR awareness training.
As long as you don’t exceed your permitted axle/gross weights, there’s no upper limit to the amount of LQ that you can carry.
Thanks for that bit of extra info Dave, ill bear that in mind for future loads
How can LQ really work. surely if what you are carrying requires ADR above the threshold, it is still dangerous below it. If youre carrying one 12T job lot or 1000 smaller packages/ bottles equalling 12T, is the risk still not the small in the event of an incident?
Far as I see it a 12T tank gets turned over and holed, 12T of neat liquid x goes down the road, massive eco disaster, many kittens and nuns disfigured. Curtain with 12T of liquid x diluted into 500ml bottles goes over perhaps 5% actually leak, nuns and kittens itch for a few hours.
Fuzrat:
Far as I see it a 12T tank gets turned over and holed, 12T of neat liquid x goes down the road, massive eco disaster, many kittens and nuns disfigured. Curtain with 12T of liquid x diluted into 500ml bottles goes over perhaps 5% actually leak, nuns and kittens itch for a few hours.
What about a fire? I can see what you are saying about a spillage, but surely 12T of dangerous goods is still 12T of dangerous goods regardless of packing size?
madmackem:
How can LQ really work. surely if what you are carrying requires ADR above the threshold, it is still dangerous below it. If youre carrying one 12T job lot or 1000 smaller packages/ bottles equalling 12T, is the risk still not the small in the event of an incident?
Hi madmackem,
The ideas of LQ and ADR ‘threshold’ are completely different ideas.
There is only certain ‘stuff’ that allowed to go as LQs, and I’d suggest that the best way of thinking about LQs is that it’s the kind of ‘stuff’ that you can buy in a retail shop AND when packaged in the way that you’d expect to buy it in a retail shop.
As a (very) rough guide, the maximum receptacle size for LQ liquids is 5L, and for LQ solids it’s 6kg, but not all substances have such generous LQ sizes. As an example, some LQ stuff can only be carried in 100ml receptacle size.
Other restrictions on LQs are the fact they can only be EITHER receptacles in a box (max box mass = 30kg) OR on a stretch-wrapped tray (max tray mass = 20kg)
When packaged in a more ‘normal’ way, such as bigger boxes, drums, jerricans, IBCs etc, the same substances, plus a whole pile of other substances, can be carried subject to ‘freebie’ limits which depend on the severity of the danger they present.
Then, REALLY dangerous ‘stuff’ has no ‘freebie’ because it’s mind bogglingly dangerous, so in that case everything in ADR will apply in full regardless of the amount carried.
A good example of such a thing would be a single Ebola virus, which is so small that we can’t see it, but let’s just say that it’s incredibly hellish dangerous if it were to escape.
IMHO, ADR does its best to be take a progressive balanced view between the amount of regulatory burden Vs allowing folks to get on with the job.
The way that I think of LQs is that a spillage would be not a lot of stuff that’s hardly dangerous gets out even if a fully loaded vehicle were to overturn. That’s only the way that I think of LQs, ADR doesn’t actually give a reason for it.