Accumulated driving time

I found this -

From
HERE
:
A driver ‘wipes the slate clean’ if he takes a 45-minute break (or qualifying breaks totalling 45 minutes) before or at the end of a 4.5-hour driving period. This means that the next 4.5-hour period begins with the completion of that qualifying break, and in assessing break requirements for the new 4.5-hour period, no reference is to be made to driving time accumulated before this point.

But cannot find the same in the REGULATION (EC) No. 561/2006 - looked at article 7 but that does not say the same :confused:

Anyone know where it is in the regs :question:

Rog,

It isn’t included in 561/2006 because it wasn’t included in 3820/85 (the drivers hours rules that '561 replaced).
The information comes from a European Court ruling as to how the 4.5 hours driving 45 minute rest thing was to be interpreted. Basically the Court said that as soon as you have accumulated 45 minutes of break (provided that it was taken as a whole or in 15 minute chunks - remember we’re dealing with '3820 here), then the previous driving was ignored and the 4.5 hours started again for example;

2 hours driving 15 minutes break 1 hour driving 30 minute break 4.5 hours driving

1 hour driving 45 minute break 4.5 hours driving

It could be argued that this doesn’t apply to breaks under '561, if you want to pay for a test case be my guest. :smiley: The Court would probably rule that as this has been the way things are done for 20+ years, then that is the way they will remain being done.

Thank you geebee45 - I am enlightened :smiley: :smiley:

geebee45:
Rog,

It isn’t included in 561/2006 because it wasn’t included in 3820/85 (the drivers hours rules that '561 replaced).
The information comes from a European Court ruling as to how the 4.5 hours driving 45 minute rest thing was to be interpreted. Basically the Court said that as soon as you have accumulated 45 minutes of break (provided that it was taken as a whole or in 15 minute chunks - remember we’re dealing with '3820 here), then the previous driving was ignored and the 4.5 hours started again for example;

2 hours driving 15 minutes break 1 hour driving 30 minute break 4.5 hours driving

1 hour driving 45 minute break 4.5 hours driving

It could be argued that this doesn’t apply to breaks under '561, if you want to pay for a test case be my guest. :smiley: The Court would probably rule that as this has been the way things are done for 20+ years, then that is the way they will remain being done.

Great explanation and I’m sure it has been fully understood by all those with a law degree but WTF are you on about?

berewic:

geebee45:
Rog,

It isn’t included in 561/2006 because it wasn’t included in 3820/85 (the drivers hours rules that '561 replaced).
The information comes from a European Court ruling as to how the 4.5 hours driving 45 minute rest thing was to be interpreted. Basically the Court said that as soon as you have accumulated 45 minutes of break (provided that it was taken as a whole or in 15 minute chunks - remember we’re dealing with '3820 here), then the previous driving was ignored and the 4.5 hours started again for example;

2 hours driving 15 minutes break 1 hour driving 30 minute break 4.5 hours driving

1 hour driving 45 minute break 4.5 hours driving

It could be argued that this doesn’t apply to breaks under '561, if you want to pay for a test case be my guest. :smiley: The Court would probably rule that as this has been the way things are done for 20+ years, then that is the way they will remain being done.

Great explanation and I’m sure it has been fully understood by all those with a law degree but WTF are you on about?

In a sentence. When you have completed 45 minutes of break you are free to drive for a further 4.5 hours before another break is required, unless the daily driving limit is reached first.

berewic:
Great explanation and I’m sure it has been fully understood by all those with a law degree but WTF are you on about?

OK, I’ll try and explain -

The ACTUAL rules are exactly as said by geebee45 and coffeeholic - once a driver has had 45 mins of break then the 4.5 hours accumulated driving time limit is reset to zero.

BUT I was wondering why the VOSA handbook said something that the actual regulations did not say and I was curious.

This is what I found in the DfT/VOSA guide - But I could not find the same in the current regs

From
HERE
:
A driver ‘wipes the slate clean’ if he takes a 45-minute break (or qualifying breaks totalling 45 minutes) before or at the end of a 4.5-hour driving period. This means that the next 4.5-hour period begins with the completion of that qualifying break, and in assessing break requirements for the new 4.5-hour period, no reference is to be made to driving time accumulated before this point.

If that had not been there then the driving time of 4.5 hours would be on a constant ‘rolling’ accumulation and the driver would have to be very atsute so as not to get caught out -
REMEMBER this is NOT the current regs -

drive 2 hours - 15 min break - drive 2.5 hours - 30 min break - drive max 2 hours - now the last 2 driving periods have added up to 4.5 hours with a 30 min break so the driver must now have a 15 min break - drive max 2.5 hours - now the last 2 driving periods have added up to 4.5 hours with a 15 min break so the driver must now have a 30 min break - drive 1 hour (10 hour driving day done)

You can see that if this was done, and the actual regs as written seem to say this, then the driver would really have to be on-the-ball !!

What the actual regs do not say is that a previous court ruling has added the bit that is only in the VOSA handbook - what do you think of that :question:

ROG:
The ACTUAL rules are exactly as said by geebee45 and coffeeholic - once a driver has had 45 mins of break then the 4.5 hours accumulated driving time limit is reset to zero.

BUT I was wondering why the VOSA handbook said something that the actual regulations did not say and I was curious.

There ya go ROG, it was a question of time until you fell into a trap of your own making…

You’ve very accurately described the problems, and seen the consequences, of what happens when somebody tries to ‘simplify’ Regulations when it’s usually easier to read them as they are written. :wink:

ROG:
This is what I found in the DfT/VOSA guide - But I could not find the same in the current regs

From
HERE
:
A driver ‘wipes the slate clean’ if he takes a 45-minute break (or qualifying breaks totalling 45 minutes) before or at the end of a 4.5-hour driving period. This means that the next 4.5-hour period begins with the completion of that qualifying break, and in assessing break requirements for the new 4.5-hour period, no reference is to be made to driving time accumulated before this point.

If that had not been there then the driving time of 4.5 hours would be on a constant ‘rolling’ accumulation and the driver would have to be very atsute so as not to get caught out -
REMEMBER this is NOT the current regs -

drive 2 hours - 15 min break - drive 2.5 hours - 30 min break - drive max 2 hours - now the last 2 driving periods have added up to 4.5 hours with a 30 min break so the driver must now have a 15 min break - drive max 2.5 hours - now the last 2 driving periods have added up to 4.5 hours with a 15 min break so the driver must now have a 30 min break - drive 1 hour (10 hour driving day done)

You can see that if this was done, and the actual regs as written seem to say this, then the driver would really have to be on-the-ball !!

The old Regs (3820/85) weren’t specific on exactly that subject, so a court case was needed as future guidance. When new Regs are drafted, the court rulings relevant to the old Regs are taken into account and written into the ‘new’ Regs, so that statute law actually develops over time.

ROG:
What the actual regs do not say is that a previous court ruling has added the bit that is only in the VOSA handbook - what do you think of that :question:

Answered above I hope. :smiley:

BTW, IMHO, the ‘new’ Regs don’t need further explanation about ‘rolling breaks’, if we read Article 7 correctly.

Article 7:
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes, unless he takes a rest period.

This break may be replaced by a break of at least 15 minutes followed by a break of at least 30 minutes each distributed over the period in such a way as to comply with the provisions of the first paragraph.

ROG, If you read the words, taking nothing out and putting nothing in, it’s fairly straightforward and there appears to be no question of your ‘rolling break’ idea.

Another example of the way in which statute law is said to develop over time might be the ‘Skills Motor Coaches’ case, where an issue was the interpretation of ‘duty time.’ Again, that case had to be brought under the ‘old’ Regs, because they weren’t clear on ‘duty time.’ That case went to court, then clarity was given. When the ‘new’ Regs were written, the court ruling in the ‘Skills’ case seems to have become Article 9(2) of the ‘new’ Regs about “any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation…” etc.

geebee45: I’m not implying any criticism of the VOSA handbook (honest :grimacing:), I’m sure it was written and published with the best of intentions. Mind you, upon reading it again, it does seem to be pretty clear that ROG might be looking a bit too deeply and seeing things that aren’t there just now and again, sometimes maybe. :wink:

:laughing: :laughing: Now, will somebody PLEASE give ROG a job. :grimacing: :stuck_out_tongue:

Article 7 wrote:
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes, unless he takes a rest period.

This break may be replaced by a break of at least 15 minutes followed by a break of at least 30 minutes each distributed over the period in such a way as to comply with the provisions of the first paragraph.

If it had not been for the second paragraph then I would agree.

drive 2.5 hours - 15 min break - drive 2 hours - 30 min break
This now conforms with both paragraphs
drive 2.5 hours
Now, according to the first paragraph, the driver having now driven for a period of 4.5 hours (2 + 2.5), must take a break which, according to the second paragraph, can be split with the second break being 30 mins.
The regs in the above 2 paragraphs say nothing about the ‘slate being wiped clean’ after the first 15 + 30 breaks taken.

This is why the court ruling was made - if the regs had been clear that this was the intention then there would be no need for a court ruling :wink:

I am a little surprised that, as this court ruling was made for the previous regs, that they did not include that ruling in the present regs in the form of a third paragraph.

ROG:

Article 7 wrote:
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes, unless he takes a rest period.

This break may be replaced by a break of at least 15 minutes followed by a break of at least 30 minutes each distributed over the period in such a way as to comply with the provisions of the first paragraph.

If it had not been for the second paragraph then I would agree.

drive 2.5 hours - 15 min break - drive 2 hours - 30 min break
This now conforms with both paragraphs
drive 2.5 hours
Now, according to the first paragraph, the driver having now driven for a period of 4.5 hours (2 + 2.5), must take a break which, according to the second paragraph, can be split with the second break being 30 mins.
The regs in the above 2 paragraphs say nothing about the ‘slate being wiped clean’ after the first 15 + 30 breaks taken.

Blimey ROG, How much simpler could this be?
The first paragraph of Article 7 puts a max limit of 4.5hrs on a ‘driving period’ and then sets the minimum uninterrupted break.

The second paragraph of Article 7 merely gives an alternative way of complying with the first, because it refers to the first paragraph. If you read it properly, it’s indisputable.

As for wiping the slate clean, I’d suggest that you only need to look at Article 4(k) and (q) [definitions of daily driving time and ‘driving period.’] The next thing I’d suggest that needs to be considered is Article 6(1) then it seems to me that wiping the slate clean is implied. :smiley:

It seems the biggest problem with the regulations is where drivers are looking for them, they either use MMTM or the VOSA Guide. In the latter there is a sort of warning.

Disclaimer
This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law. The guidance will be updated to reflect any developments in new legislation or case law.
If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed in Annex 1 and, if necessary, seek your own legal advice. The guidance offered in this publication reflects VOSA’s current enforcement policy. It does not reflect interpretation of the law in other countries.

They are only a rough guide and can be used as a quick reference.

To make absolutely sure of the regulations you need to use the official documents, found here.

One interesting exception stands out for me in the quote.

EXCEPTIONS

A Member State may provide for longer minimum breaks and
rest periods or shorter maximum driving times than those laid
down in Articles 6 to 9 in the case of carriage by road
undertaken wholly within its territory. In so doing, Member
States shall take account of relevant collective or other
agreements between the social partners. Nevertheless, this
Regulation shall remain applicable to drivers engaged in
international transport operations.