A question about POA..... your opinion

If someone is loading a tanker (not fuel), they connect the pipe, start the pump and then go and sit in the cab (read the paper, check Facebook, play a game or call the wife basically do absolutely ANYTHING they wish) for a guaranteed 25 minutes and the trailer automatically shuts off the loading, in your or more importantly the DVSA’s opinion would this qualify as a period of availability?
They also have to stay with the truck for safety and security.

Obviously the putting the pipe on and off and activating the pump would be crossed hammers.

I used to put mine on break when I was discharging condensed milk at food factories. The discharge point was opposite the staff restaurant so I used to get my breakfast and they had a member of staff monitoring the discharging.

If you expect to be waiting for 25 minutes regularly then it is fine to use poa.

Understanding what your saying BUT technically your in charge of the pumping out operation and as you say not free to leave your vehicle unattended because of H&S.purposes
It has to be cross hammers

I would hope a tanker job would be paid well enough that needing to nab 25 mins POA, whilst you’re still overseeing the operation, wouldn’t be necessary.

Our tipping operations from start to finish are work, doesn’t matter if you’re blowing 6 psi half way across a factory and it takes 2 hours and you can read a book in the time it takes, we’re still working the whole period.

I wouldn’t class that as poa, even though you know the time it takes based on previous experience you’re still having to keep an eye on it. Even keeping a eye on a tanker discharging is work imo.

Interesting one :exclamation:

Is it similar to this …
On a freezing cold day a driver is due a 45 break which is taken in the cab but the driver keeps the engine running to keep warm … can that be break ?

I think common sense will prevail in my example and that of the OPs in so far as the driver is using the time to re-cooperate but at the same time keeping an eye/ear on any issues which may occur

My thought is therefore OK to put on break

It is not a break nor POA in any shape or form.
You are still being in charge of your unloading and can not just walk away from your vehicle and do what you want to do with your time.
Check definition of what POA is meant to be.

"What is a Period of Availability?
Under the regulations, a POA should satisfy the following criteria:

A mobile worker should not be required to stay at his/her workstation
He/she must be available to answer calls, resume work or start driving upon request
The period of availability (and its duration) must be known to the mobile worker in advance, either before his/her departure or prior to the start of the period"

transportsfriend.org/wtd/poa.html

hkloss1:
do what you want to do with your time

that’s rest not break

hkloss1:
It is not a break nor POA in any shape or form.
You are still being in charge of your unloading and can not just walk away from your vehicle and do what you want to do with your time.
Check definition of what POA is meant to be.

"What is a Period of Availability?
Under the regulations, a POA should satisfy the following criteria:

A mobile worker should not be required to stay at his/her workstation
He/she must be available to answer calls, resume work or start driving upon request
The period of availability (and its duration) must be known to the mobile worker in advance, either before his/her departure or prior to the start of the period"

transportsfriend.org/wtd/poa.html

What he said.

ROG:
Interesting one :exclamation:

Is it similar to this …
On a freezing cold day a driver is due a 45 break which is taken in the cab but the driver keeps the engine running to keep warm … can that be break ?

I think common sense will prevail in my example and that of the OPs in so far as the driver is using the time to re-cooperate but at the same time keeping an eye/ear on any issues which may occur

My thought is therefore OK to put on break

Have to disagree Rog. Driver may be physically resting but as far as most responsible companies’ rules are concerned he’s still supervising the loading or unloading; therefore he’s working.

ROG:

hkloss1:
do what you want to do with your time

that’s rest not break

What are you on about mate…?
and where did you get that quote from you are implying I had written it?

Short term memory loss…they say we all get it as we grow older, I know I have :slight_smile: :wink:
Regards John.

hkloss1:

ROG:

hkloss1:
do what you want to do with your time

that’s rest not break

What are you on about mate…?
and where did you get that quote from you are implying I had written it?

You did say it…

hkloss1:
You are still being in charge of your unloading and can not just walk away from your vehicle and do what you want to do with your time.

NewLad:
If someone is loading a tanker (not fuel), they connect the pipe, start the pump and then go and sit in the cab (read the paper, check Facebook, play a game or call the wife basically do absolutely ANYTHING they wish) for a guaranteed 25 minutes and the trailer automatically shuts off the loading, in your or more importantly the DVSA’s opinion would this qualify as a period of availability?
They also have to stay with the truck for safety and security.

Obviously the putting the pipe on and off and activating the pump would be crossed hammers.

As has been said, legally that cannot be POA because you’re not free to leave the workstation.

tachograph:
As has been said, legally that cannot be POA because you’re not free to leave the workstation.

Would you say it can be break :question:

Why would you want to put it as POA? I don’t bother with it. I use other work, driving and break.

I understood POA is meant to be smiliar to being on call with advanced notice. Say your boss says he has nothing for you tomorrow before say 10am, but wants you to come in at 9 and wait in the drivers room for a hour prior incase something comes up.

ROG:

tachograph:
As has been said, legally that cannot be POA because you’re not free to leave the workstation.

Would you say it can be break :question:

That wasn’t the OPs question but as long as the loading/discharging doesn’t have to be supervised by the driver the time could be used as break.

Having said that, on the few occasions I’ve pulled a tanker I’ve supervised the unloading to see that nothing went wrong, but if the driver really does not have to supervise the operation as suggested by the OP then I see no reason why it can’t be booked as break.

Thanks everyone for your input and views on this matter I have copied this off Transports Friend the bold bit led me to believe that it could be used as a period of availability.

Workers and Availability
As long as the mobile worker is free to dispose of his/her time with a certain amount of freedom in much the same way that a break or rest period is taken, this would satisfy the criteria of a POA. Therefore if the workstation (drivers cab) offered this freedom, the POA can be taken at the workstation. However, if the mobile worker disposes of their time away from their workstation, they must be contactable at all times.
Where a mobile worker has to remain at his/her workstation due to reasons of safety or security, this would not disqualify the mobile worker from including this enforced wait as a POA, and therefore it can be included as such.
It must be noted here, that there are no requirements which dictate minimum or maximum lengths of POA’s, as long as the period in question satisfied the criteria of a POA, regardless of length it will count as such.

This is taken from a government website
webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. … nce?page=4

The bit in bold states that you can stay at the workstation for safety or security reasons and can still be included as POA.

2.3 What is a period of availability?
Generally speaking a period of availability (PoA) is waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance by the mobile worker. Under the Regulations, these periods have to meet the following criteria:

a mobile worker should not be required to remain at their workstation;
(but) they must be available to answer calls to start work or resume driving on request;
the period and the foreseeable duration should be known in advance by the mobile worker, either before departure or just before the start of the period in question.
Like breaks and rest periods, a PoA can be taken at the workstation. Providing the mobile worker has a reasonable amount of freedom (e.g. they can relax and read), for a known duration, this would satisfy the requirements for a PoA. Where the mobile worker knows about a delay in advance, but it is deemed prudent that they should remain in the cab for reasons of security or safety, this should not in itself, disqualify this delay being recorded as a PoA. Typical examples might include waiting at a site that is unsafe for pedestrians or staying in a vehicle carrying high value goods or cash.

Mobile workers do not need to be formally notified about a PoA and its duration in advance. It is enough that they know about it (and the foreseeable duration), in advance either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question. A PoA would be deemed to be known in advance by a mobile worker if, for example:

someone (who does not have to be their employer) has told them, or
they have arrived too early for their allocated slot, or
they always experience a delay at one of their regular customers.
A PoA does not apply to delays where the mobile worker has to continue working. For example, where a driver is diverted due to a road closure, he/she would still be driving. Normally, delays due to congestion would also count as working time because the driver would be stopping and starting the vehicle. If a mobile worker is monitoring a discharge from the vehicle (e.g. petrol at filling station), this time will also count as working time.

There are no requirements as to the minimum and maximum length of a PoA.