cav551:
Are those batteries ( l ion?) not going to get very hot indeed charging at that rate?
They are going to need a lot of cooling, tis true.
In the video at the top of the thread approx 11min00 he talks of 1.4kW/hr rates with current(!) technology.
cooper1203:
lets assume 10 mpg in a modern truck. at last nights price thats £8.39 per gallon (pump price at 184.9) so that is 83.9 pence per mile. According to tesla it takes 2 kwh per mile. price of domestic electric is 50 pence per kwh so the truck would cost you £1 per mile 16.1 pence more
In video at 12min20 0.5 kW hr per mile. A quarter of what you say.
And note they are talking of 70mph. Wind resistance is proportional to the square of the speed, so dropping to 56mph, makes a huge difference.
(A UK truck wouldn`t be doing 10mpg at 70!)
Domestic electricity pricing in the UK is a very distorted market.
cav551:
Are those batteries ( l ion?) not going to get very hot indeed charging at that rate?
Most battery traction packs are LFP (lithium iron phosphate) these days, They can take way more charging /discharging cycles than ternary batteries & are not as susceptible as ternary batteries to heat build up.
Just been reading Daimler trucks want to bypass the upcoming euro 7 standards mandates altogether & invest straight into zero emission vehicles. I don’t blame them the fines for missing their emission targets will be enormous just as the car manufacturers are being hit, Elon is coining it in at present to the tune of $450million per quarter as car manufacturers have to buy ZEV credits from them, That’s almost $1.4billion of free money for Tesla for 2022 alone, it will be even higher in 2023 when the emission standards are tightened in 2023 & as the Tesla Semi is now in production they would stand to make a killing with HGV ZEV credits. 
electrive.com/2022/10/13/da … ransition/
Very good video. Lots of interesting stuff in it.
I dont like the old imperial units, and please remember all of you that US gallons, and UK gallons, arent the same!
Loved it after 9min when he started with mph, then moved into good ole SI units of m/sec !
dang quoted the wrong bit
Franglais:
cooper1203:
lets assume 10 mpg in a modern truck. at last nights price thats £8.39 per gallon (pump price at 184.9) so that is 83.9 pence per mile. According to tesla it takes 2 kwh per mile. price of domestic electric is 50 pence per kwh so the truck would cost you £1 per mile 16.1 pence moreIn video at 12min20 0.5 kW hr per mile. A quarter of what you say.
And note they are talking of 70mph. Wind resistance is proportional to the square of the speed, so dropping to 56mph, makes a huge difference.
(A UK truck wouldn`t be doing 10mpg at 70!)Domestic electricity pricing in the UK is a very distorted market.
lets try again…
topelectricsuv.com/news/tesla/t … -feb-2022/ 3rd bullet point
if you want a quote from the video at 1.25 the bloke says tesla say they can get 1/2 mile per kwh so 2 kwh per mile
cooper1203:
Franglais:
cooper1203:
lets assume 10 mpg in a modern truck. at last nights price thats £8.39 per gallon (pump price at 184.9) so that is 83.9 pence per mile. According to tesla it takes 2 kwh per mile. price of domestic electric is 50 pence per kwh so the truck would cost you £1 per mile 16.1 pence moreIn video at 12min20 0.5 kW hr per mile. A quarter of what you say.
And note they are talking of 70mph. Wind resistance is proportional to the square of the speed, so dropping to 56mph, makes a huge difference.
(A UK truck wouldn`t be doing 10mpg at 70!)Domestic electricity pricing in the UK is a very distorted market.
lets try again…
topelectricsuv.com/news/tesla/t … -feb-2022/ 3rd bullet point
if you want a quote from the video at 1.25 the bloke says tesla say they can get 1/2 mile per kwh so 2 kwh per mile
Whoops!
Half mile per kW hr. Yes, you`re right.
cooper1203:
lets assume 10 mpg in a modern truck. at last nights price thats £8.39 per gallon (pump price at 184.9) so that is 83.9 pence per mile. According to tesla it takes 2 kwh per mile. price of domestic electric is 50 pence per kwh so the truck would cost you £1 per mile 16.1 pence more
The price of domestic electricity only includes 5% VAT and no road fuel tax.More than half the price of DERV is tax.
Faster (than 7 kWh ) charging is already way above 50p per kWh closer to £1 per kWh.
There is a reason why EV charging is being subject to compulsory smart metering.
Franglais:
cav551:
Are those batteries ( l ion?) not going to get very hot indeed charging at that rate?They are going to need a lot of cooling, tis true.
In the video at the top of the thread approx 11min00 he talks of 1.4kW/hr rates with current(!) technology.
Thanks for finding that. I had seen the video but didn’t refer to it befor posting. I just tried to work out the heat generated and then decided that it would take a long time for me to transpose and substitute formulae I haven’t used for yonks and be confident in the answer I had finished with. His answer was actually 1400 KWhr.
My attention had been drawn by the large number of electric buses withdrawn from service or destroyed in fires related to charging.
Franglais:
[.
(A UK truck wouldn`t be doing 10mpg at 70!).
It will be getting 1,000 mpg at 70!
Because it WILL be free wheeling down a hill! [emoji1787]
Franglais:
And simple arithmetic says 320mls is way over 4hrs30 driving.(Cue…but when you`re double manned in Alps at 300tonnes and a charging point is already occupied etc etc)
Simple arithmetic says that you’re not going to get a 500-600 km trunk and a recharge done in a shift.
Nor carry a 25t + payload in the artic configuration.
LHV drawbar and fast charging at £1 per kWh + road fuel tax maybe assuming the economy could withstand the resulting inflation and a nuclear disaster or two.
ETS:
Of course it all sounds great in theory (going by Tesla’s own claims since there’s not a single truck existing which can be examined/tested) but will it ever be produced and then produced en masse, how much is the charging infrastructure going to cost and its reliability/operation cost/maintenance cost, batteries lifespan etc. remain unanswered for now.
I did the maths based on the Tesla Model Y on what it would need to run at 44 tonnes and basically you needed over 7 tonnes of batteries to move 44 tonnes the same 300 miles that a Model Y could do. Clearly that ain’t happening.
Conor:
ETS:
Of course it all sounds great in theory (going by Tesla’s own claims since there’s not a single truck existing which can be examined/tested) but will it ever be produced and then produced en masse, how much is the charging infrastructure going to cost and its reliability/operation cost/maintenance cost, batteries lifespan etc. remain unanswered for now.I did the maths based on the Tesla Model Y on what it would need to run at 44 tonnes and basically you needed over 7 tonnes of batteries to move 44 tonnes the same 300 miles that a Model Y could do. Clearly that ain’t happening.
What maths is that?
Hope it`s not a simple scaling exercise. Try using the same methodology to see how a Volvo V40 would perform at 44t, and let us know how that compares with a Volvo truck.
Franglais:
What maths is that?Hope it`s not a simple scaling exercise. Try using the same methodology to see how a Volvo V40 would perform at 44t, and let us know how that compares with a Volvo truck.
Tell us more about the differences in EV power trains from batteries to motor that would equate to the difference between a 13 litre turbo diesel producing 400 hp at 1,500 rpm v a 2 litre car engine producing less than half that at more than twice the engine speed.
The truth is pure maths destroys the case for EV’s.From fuel costs to energy density contained in a litre of diesel v engine efficiency provided by maximum power obtained at minimum engine speed.
The truth is you’ll need a Scandinavian type LHV to match the productivity of an existing 44t artic at the equivalent of around £3 per litre, probably more including road fuel duty and VAT + the cost of batteries.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
What maths is that?Hope it`s not a simple scaling exercise. Try using the same methodology to see how a Volvo V40 would perform at 44t, and let us know how that compares with a Volvo truck.
Tell us more about the differences in EV power trains from batteries to motor that would equate to the difference between a 13 litre turbo diesel producing 400 hp at 1,500 rpm v a 2 litre car engine producing less than half that at more than twice the engine speed.
The truth is pure maths destroys the case for EV’s.From fuel costs to energy density contained in a litre of diesel v engine efficiency provided by maximum power obtained at minimum engine speed.
The truth is you’ll need a Scandinavian type LHV to match the productivity of an existing 44t artic at the equivalent of around £3 per litre, probably more including road fuel duty and VAT + the cost of batteries.
Franglais:
Carryfast:
The truth is pure maths destroys the case for EV’s.From fuel costs to energy density contained in a litre of diesel v engine efficiency provided by maximum power obtained at minimum engine speed.
The truth is you’ll need a Scandinavian type LHV to match the productivity of an existing 44t artic at the equivalent of around £3 per litre, probably more including road fuel duty and VAT + the cost of batteries.
Great so you’ve got enough battery capacity to get a decent days work out of it.
But with the batteries alone costing more than an engine, gearbox and final drive package.
But it’s still going to take half of the next shift/day or more to refuel it at around £1 per kWh = around £3 per litre of diesel + road fuel duty and 20% VAT.
While clearing up after a nuclear disaster or two ain’t cheap.