Don’ t know the first thing about wagon/drags, bloody awful things imo 
. So what is the advantage of using an A frame over the modern draw bar system. If there isn’t one you would think they would be obsolete by now.
robroy:
Don’ t know the first thing about wagon/drags, bloody awful things imo
Stability and weight distribution proof.A close coupled job is just a compromised combination based on the same idea as a car caravan type outfit with all the same,but obviously magnified,downsides.IE it really needs a relatively high trailer nose weight to help it’s inherent zb stability.In which case even at best there’s no way of loading the prime mover to its max weight without exceeding the rear axle weight capacity when the trailer is coupled up.While there’s no way of creating zero nose weight without perfect trailer weight distribution even if anyone wanted to run a close coupled heap in that dodgy weight configuration regards stability.
On that note it isn’t an issue of ‘modern’ v ‘older’.It’s just a matter of superior v inferior engineering and in that regard A frame drawbars are still about as good as it gets and well worth the increased level of skill needed to reverse them. 
robroy:
Immigrant:
raymundo:
Never had front end couplings with the Alstons motors so had to do it the real truckers way
difference between Trucker and Steeringwheel Turner
Reckon I’d be a Steeringwheel turner in one then.
Once watched a German lad backing one into a dodgy bay in Belgium. He had it down to a fine art.
Like I said, no desire to drive one, I’ ll just stick to being unbelievable at reversing artics
I had to drive such and was quiet good reversing on a Bay but wasnt able to reverse in a straight Line for 100 Meter.
They are like anything else…a bit of practice…ok a lot of practice and not really a problem. I found it a challenge and hate to be beaten so eventually mastered it. Take it at very slow speed and be very quick with the steering wheel. Does not do the front tyres much good but hey ho.
Makes an artic feel so easy!..
Oh and by the way not sure if Spar use them or not.
Immigrant:
robroy:
Immigrant:
raymundo:
Never had front end couplings with the Alstons motors so had to do it the real truckers way
Reckon I’d be a Steeringwheel turner in one then.
Once watched a German lad backing one into a dodgy bay in Belgium. He had it down to a fine art.
Like I said, no desire to drive one, I’ ll just stick to being unbelievable at reversing articsI had to drive such and was quiet good reversing on a Bay but wasnt able to reverse in a straight Line for 100 Meter.
As I said.
Never felt so embarrassed in my whole life as the time it took me 30 minutes to reverse down the ramp with a bend in it and get it correctly in position on the Liverpool/Belfast ferry, went into the drivers lounge afterwards and every one cheered, including the lady trucker who had Scania tattooed on her arse, she showed it to anyone who doubted it was there ! 
( I doubted it twice )
Carryfast:
Stability and weight distribution proof.A close coupled job is just a compromised combination based on the same idea as a car caravan type outfit with all the same,but obviously magnified,downsides.IE it really needs a relatively high trailer nose weight to help it’s inherent zb stability.In which case even at best there’s no way of loading the prime mover to its max weight without exceeding the rear axle weight capacity when the trailer is coupled up.While there’s no way of creating zero nose weight without perfect trailer weight distribution even if anyone wanted to run a close coupled heap in that dodgy weight configuration regards stability.
In addition to what you wrote about the wagon and drag type, isn’t it the case that with a proper A frame drawbar, you can safely have a fully loaded rear trailer and an empty prime mover without any adverse effects due to it essentially being a separate vehicle with regards stability that is merely being towed by the prime mover?
Never driven one and almost certainly never will, but I often used to see them in Germany and Switzerland being maneuvered with great skill. Used to see the odd German one backing on to ferries as well. That’s one job that you couldn’t just chuck any old licence holder in to, so not much good in modern Britain.
quote … you can safely have a fully loaded rear trailer and an empty prime mover without any adverse effects …
Not sure about an A frame but you cannot with close coupled, as I found out to my cost when on for Murfits in Italy. Had two collections of white goods from two different factories, at first collection point I loaded a full wagon load of tumble dryers after asking and getting confirmation that I would be loading the same out of Milan, but when loading the trailer I was told the load was washing machines so much heavier. Milan to Lincolnshire is a long way at about 40 mph as any faster then it was a case of the ‘tail wagging the dog’. Not nice
robinhood_1984:
Carryfast:
Stability and weight distribution proof.A close coupled job is just a compromised combination based on the same idea as a car caravan type outfit with all the same,but obviously magnified,downsides.IE it really needs a relatively high trailer nose weight to help it’s inherent zb stability.In which case even at best there’s no way of loading the prime mover to its max weight without exceeding the rear axle weight capacity when the trailer is coupled up.While there’s no way of creating zero nose weight without perfect trailer weight distribution even if anyone wanted to run a close coupled heap in that dodgy weight configuration regards stability.In addition to what you wrote about the wagon and drag type, isn’t it the case that with a proper A frame drawbar, you can safely have a fully loaded rear trailer and an empty prime mover without any adverse effects due to it essentially being a separate vehicle with regards stability that is merely being towed by the prime mover?
Never driven one and almost certainly never will, but I often used to see them in Germany and Switzerland being maneuvered with great skill. Used to see the odd German one backing on to ferries as well. That’s one job that you couldn’t just chuck any old licence holder in to, so not much good in modern Britain.
The idea of empty prime mover v full trailer would be a extreme unrealistic example.But in general yes you can get away with a much larger mismatch in weight between prime mover and trailer,without it effecting the handling than in the case of the close coupled type.With traction being more of a limiting factor in that regard than stability.The close coupled design really having all the inherent flaws and handling issues of the typical car and caravan etc type outfit in that regard but obviously on a much bigger truck scale.The idea of the ballast tractor gives an idea of the difference.In which the ballast is just there to provide sufficient traction not to balance the gross weight of the prime mover against the gross weight of the trailer to stop any tendency of the tail wagging the dog.
flickr.com/photos/edward_beck/6321491459
As for driving them as I’ve said elsewhere I think that having a preference for driving rigids over artics is often a good start point for also having a preference for the rigid and trailer configuration.The preference for the inherent stability of the A frame over the close coupled type just being a part of that.At least I think that applied in my case.IE you probably need to enjoy driving them to get the best from them.
B trains are bad enough for me. I know our guys aren’t keen on backing up the A trains
albion1971:
I found it a challenge and hate to be beaten so eventually mastered it. Take it at very slow speed and be very quick with the steering wheel.
If you’ve mastered it then you should know that you move the steering wheel very little.
OP, peterm’s post is as good as it gets. All I would add is to line up the trailer before you start reversing, and have the slightest kink in the whole combo and push the trailer under the demount. Look out of the window as you’re doing this as you need to keep your eyes on the corners of the trailer.
Preparation is the key. Drop the suspension on the rear of the trailer, or prime mover if just moving that under. If you’re not happy as you reverse under then pull out and start again. Don’t be a hero, it will only end in tears.
Stanley Knife:
OP, peterm’s post is as good as it gets. All I would add is to line up the trailer before you start reversing, and have the slightest kink in the whole combo and push the trailer under the demount. Look out of the window as you’re doing this as you need to keep your eyes on the corners of the trailer.
In the real world of having ‘mastered it’ putting the trailer under a demount box directly from a 90 degree turn with the nearside corner mostly out of sight because the prime mover is loaded with a box on,shouldn’t be a problem.While if it’s blindside forget about looking out of the window.
Used to be seriously impressed by the Greek blokes backing onto the ferries at Piraeus.
My current work set-up, though this was during the wheat harvest in July. Initially found I just couldn’t reverse at all, but as I didn’t really need to, wasn’t too bothered.
Now collecting and delivering compost to various fields, so have time to practice reversing and can now lay out neat lines of compost.
robinhood_1984:
In addition to what you wrote about the wagon and drag type, isn’t it the case that with a proper A frame drawbar, you can safely have a fully loaded rear trailer and an empty prime mover without any adverse effects due to it essentially being a separate vehicle with regards stability that is merely being towed by the prime mover?
My Boss who has been driving these combos for years told me NEVER drive with the trailer full and the wagon empty. Believe me when I say I don’t doubt him!
PS Can a Mod turn them up the right way, I am in France not Australia and on my screen before downloading them to Trucknet they are up the right way, but when added to my post the end up upside down. If I turn them upside down before downloading them they still end up upside down 
Stanley Knife:
albion1971:
I found it a challenge and hate to be beaten so eventually mastered it. Take it at very slow speed and be very quick with the steering wheel.If you’ve mastered it then you should know that you move the steering wheel very little.
OP, peterm’s post is as good as it gets. All I would add is to line up the trailer before you start reversing, and have the slightest kink in the whole combo and push the trailer under the demount. Look out of the window as you’re doing this as you need to keep your eyes on the corners of the trailer.
Preparation is the key. Drop the suspension on the rear of the trailer, or prime mover if just moving that under. If you’re not happy as you reverse under then pull out and start again. Don’t be a hero, it will only end in tears.
Really? Well I suppose it depends on what you are doing but I always found I had to be very quick with the steering especially going back in a straight line.
I would say what you are saying is more to do with an artic! Please explain more of your theory as I am very interested in what you say. I was reversing a tanker and trailer by the way.
My Boss who has been driving these combos for years told me NEVER drive with the trailer full and the wagon empty. Believe me when I say I don’t doubt him!
Your Boss is completely correct.
Turn the steering wheel at whatever speed you like as long as you don’t turn it too much otherwise you’ll be snaking it all over the show in the end.
raymundo:
Turn the steering wheel at whatever speed you like as long as you don’t turn it too much otherwise you’ll be snaking it all over the show in the end.
Maybe I should have phrased it better. You have to be very quick to correct it otherwise your bolloxed unlike an artic.
Would love to see stanley knife at work!
I dragged those things around for nearly a year but cant say I ever mastered them 100%. One place in Belfast we went to the lads in the warehouse would get me to drop the trailer and they would push it to the doors, furniture don’t weigh much and cable handbrake (before any one says the brakes would lock on when you disconnected the airlines.)