you can not do it
Go on then, I’ll bite. Why not?
Given that before the last rule changes you could legally do in excess of 70 hours driving in a week what makes you say you now cannot do 56?
Coffeeholic:
Go on then, I’ll bite. Why not?Given that before the last rule changes you could legally do in excess of 70 hours driving in a week what makes you say you now cannot do 56?
not enough time in the week to do 56 hours driving
delboytwo:
Coffeeholic:
Go on then, I’ll bite. Why not?Given that before the last rule changes you could legally do in excess of 70 hours driving in a week what makes you say you now cannot do 56?
not enough time in the week to do 56 hours driving
I think you’ll find there is.
4 x 9 hours drives
2 x 10 hour drives = 56 hours (driving breaks taken as required)
30 minutes a day for pre trip checks and end of shift stuff = 3 hours
1 hour left in week for other stuff
60 hours work = Tacho and WTD sorted.
Coffeeholic:
delboytwo:
Coffeeholic:
Go on then, I’ll bite. Why not?Given that before the last rule changes you could legally do in excess of 70 hours driving in a week what makes you say you now cannot do 56?
not enough time in the week to do 56 hours driving
I think you’ll find there is.
4 x 9 hours drives
2 x 10 hour drives = 56 hours (driving breaks taken as required)
30 minutes a day for pre trip checks and end of shift stuff = 3 hours
1 hour left in week for other stuff
60 hours work = Tacho and WTD sorted.
we don’t live in a perfect world
what about fuel stops, traffic lights, traffic jams, accidents, unloading and loading
ask you this Neil how long do you wait in traffic in an average week
we can only work 60 hours per week max under RTD and that’s if you have got the hours to do just that within you reference period
delboytwo:
we don’t live in a perfect world
True.
delboytwo:
what about fuel stops,
That would be other work, couple of times a week fuelling, say 30 minutes.
delboytwo:
traffic lights, traffic jams,
Driving, so goes toward the 56 hours.
delboytwo:
accidents,
Could be driving time, could be other work, could even be break if you are stopped long enough.
delboytwo:
unloading and loading
Not every driver loads or unloads his their own trailers, I’ve not loaded a trailer for about 2 years and unloaded one once in that time.
delboytwo:
ask you this Neil how long do you wait in traffic in an average week
Not very long, with occasional exceptions. Bit of slow moving traffic sure, but that is driving time so is part of the 56 hours.
delboytwo:
we can only work 60 hours per week max under RTD and that’s if you have got the hours to do just that within you reference period
True, doing 56 hours every week wouldn’t be possible but that is different to saying it cannot be done.
Two weeks out of eight I do 3 trips to Germany and they are the two weeks I actually work the most number of hours which count toward the WTD. During those weeks, with decent traffic flow, I average 8 - 8.5 hours driving a day for 6 days, say 50 hours. All we do is collect a sealed, loaded trailer, take it where it has to go and drop it, no waiting for paperwork or doing any loading or unloading. Daily vehicle checks, fuelling a couple of times in the week and other bits and pieces accounts for about 3.5 - 4 hours other work. Even booking on the train takes less than a minute, not usually long enough to even register as other work on the digi tacho. If it’s a bad week traffic wise the driving might go up to 53 or 54 hours, closet I’ve come to the limit was 55 hours 33 minutes but I was still under 60 hours total work for the week.
delboytwo wrote:
traffic lights, traffic jams,
Driving, so goes toward the 56 hours.
not on digi mate if you stop it goes to other work even for a few seconds
i have done night trunking same run 18 months went in a digi tacho truck for one month and the other work added more an the down load machine
in analogue my run was average 4 hours up 4 back and would have about 1.5 hours work and the rest would be brake
in the digi i was doing same drive 4 up and 4 back but my other work was up to 2 hours cos of the road works on m1
on and i know you can do 56 hours driving but would be difficult in the real world cos no one know what will happen tomorrow
delboytwo:
delboytwo wrote:
traffic lights, traffic jams,
Driving, so goes toward the 56 hours.
not on digi mate if you stop it goes to other work even for a few seconds
With a digi if you move again in less than a minute that time won’t be counted as other work, it will be counted as driving, it also depends where you were in the calendar minute when you came to a halt as to how long you will need to be stopped before it will actually register as other work. The digi tacho doesn’t count all those 10, 15, 20, 30 second stops as other work, they will be driving time. The same way if do a short drive across the yard the digi will clock that as 1, or possibly 2 minutes driving time, when you may have only done 30 seconds or so.
delboytwo:
i have done night trunking same run 18 months went in a digi tacho truck for one month and the other work added more an the down load machinein analogue my run was average 4 hours up 4 back and would have about 1.5 hours work and the rest would be brake
in the digi i was doing same drive 4 up and 4 back but my other work was up to 2 hours cos of the road works on m1
You can’t have had much in the way of delays if your driving time was still 4 hours, or you were lucky and each time you stopped you stayed stopped for a minute or two so it did get counted as other work.
delboytwo:
on and i know you can do 56 hours driving but would be difficult in the real world cos no one know what will happen tomorrow
It being difficult is different from your first post when you said it can’t be done, when it clearly can. We are planned for three Germany’s in a week but there have been occasions when either the driver hasn’t gone on the third one because he doesn’t have enough driving time to complete it or he ends up stopping for 24 hours on the way back as he has hit the 56 hours. That’s life, sometimes it all works out and sometimes it doesn’t.
ok i stand corrected you can drive 56 in a week
but still only leave you 4 hour of other work in six days which is my point you would fined it very difficult to do 56 hours driving and the rest of you work, yes some drivers just pick up and drop off, some don’t load or unload and if you say driving time is siting in traffic why is this in the regs
‘driving time’ means the duration of driving activity
recorded:
i would think siting in traffic is other work
and with the regards to the digi rounding up this is a known fault with them and would in fact put more drive time on than you have actually done and there for give you a false drive time
delboytwo:
ok i stand corrected you can drive 56 in a weekbut still only leave you 4 hour of other work in six days which is my point you would fined it very difficult to do 56 hours driving and the rest of you work
So your point has changed from “you cannot do it” to “it would be difficult”. 
Just because something is difficult doesn’t mean it is impossible.
delboytwo:
‘driving time’ means the duration of driving activity
recorded:
You missed out the rest, and important bit of that quote, which incidentally is defining what driving time is, not what driving is. They are two different things. the bit you ignored is…
– automatically or semi-automatically by the recording
equipment as defined in Annex I and Annex IB
of Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85, or
– manually as required by Article 16(2) of Regulation
(EEC) No 3821/85;
In other words for the purposes of the regulations total driving time is taken to be what the machine records, or you record manually, and as you point out digi units do round up sometimes so that will be your total driving time.
delboytwo:
i would think siting in traffic is other work
You would think wrong then, the wheels don’t have to be turning for it to be driving time. Driving is classed as being behind the wheel for the purpose of controlling the vehicle. If you leave your yard and 06:00 get a clean run straight to your destination, arriving at, 09:00, you’ve done 3 hours driving. If you leave your yard at 06:00 and catch every red light plus a queue at roadworks and another because of an accident, arriving at 10:00, you’ve done 4 hours driving. Although with a digi you may be lucky and it may have shaved a few minutes off that if any of your pauses were long enough. While that isn’t strictly accurate, as the quote above says your driving time is what the machine says it is.
delboytwo:
and with the regards to the digi rounding up this is a known fault with them and would in fact put more drive time on than you have actually done and there for give you a false drive time
But would get you to your 56 limit sooner. Also don’t forget the tacho rules are EU wide and most of the EU just ignores the WTD so the 60 hour thing means nothing to them.
I know that where the LAW is concerned, driving is the time spent in charge but is that different to the actual driving time recorded for EU regs 
Del started this thread by saying that you can’t drive for 56 hours in a week so was presumably referring to the maximum allowed weekly driving in the tacho regs.
As already stated as far as the drivers hours regulations are concerned if it’s not recorded on the chart/card as driving then it isn’t driving (assuming the tacho is in good working order), you may be in charge of the vehicle which would mean that according to traffic law you would be driving but as far as the drivers hours regulations are concerned you’re doing something other than driving, you may be sat in a traffic jam sat at lights or doing some other ungodly act but you’re not driving unless the chart/card says you’re driving
And yes as already said you could clock up 56 hours driving in a week and still be within the 60 hours maximum working time.
Having said that perhaps we should all go back to using lie books so we can work whatever hours we want
tachograph:
Having said that perhaps we should all go back to using lie books so we can work whatever hours we want
I used to like drawing pictures of castles 
tachograph:
you may be sat in a traffic jam sat at lights or doing some other ungodly act but you’re not driving unless the chart/card says you’re driving
And unless you are sitting there for a minute or more the chart/digi record will show it as driving despite the mode switch changing for a period.
If you were being unloaded by other workers then you would be on POA which wouldn’t count towards working time. This would make it easier to hit the 56 hours. In my job I spend more time on other work than on driving and rarely have POA so I’d never hit it. Am I right in saying POA does not count towards the weekly working hours total? So for instance you could do
15hour day 10 driving 2 other work 3 POA
15hour day 10 driving 2 other work 3 POA
15hour day 9 driving 3 other work 3 POA
13hour day 9 driving 3 other work 2 POA
13hour day 9 driving 3 other work 2 POA
giving 47 hours driving 13 hours other work and 13 hours of POA
You’ve only “worked” for 60 hours but actually been “at work” for 73 hours and all relevent daily rest periods and then weekly rest periods are complied with.
NB assume the driver has taken his tacho breaks in such a way to cover his WTD break and that the daily 90 minutes of breaks comes out of the POA. Is this scenario actually legal and indeed possible? If I’ve got it wrong I need to relearn the rules.
tofer:
IIf I’ve got it wrong I need to relearn the rules.
Almost. Break doesn’t ‘come out of POA’ as the time is either POA or break. Although they are near enough the same thing they are different and the mode switch needs to be set accordingly. If you change the POA above to break, or at least 90 minutes on day 1 and 2 along with 45 minutes on the other 3 days, to break it will be bang on legal.
I’ve mentioned before that there are certain weeks when I book over 80 hours on my time sheet but due to the amount of break I have, including 6 ferry crossings, I don’t usually exceed the 48 hour average work for the week. There are other weeks when I book around 75 hours and get very close to both the 60 hour max and the 56 hours driving because there is far less break in those weeks.
Neil, am i right in thinking you can count the 1st 15 minutes of POA as break?
Del will be telling us you can’t run 6 cards in 5 days next.
Having driven both, but on general haulage, not just night trunks, i noted that the digi tachs are VERY time hungry as to the amount of driving time they clock.
i.e. from parked infront of a trailer to backing under it, say 10 seconds, can clock 2 minutes.
On the analogue equipped Actros i usually drive, this is how it goes:
- Most time clocked: my manually operated digital timer.
- Tacho analyst
- Least time clocked: onboard computer
Found this out some time ago. Forgot to set personal timer, relied on computer, was pushing to park and ran it to within a few minutes of max. All our cards are analysed & it came back as having exceeded drive time 
Driveroneuk:
Neil, am i right in thinking you can count the 1st 15 minutes of POA as break?Del will be telling us you can’t run 6 cards in 5 days next.
Having driven both, but on general haulage, not just night trunks, i noted that the digi tachs are VERY time hungry as to the amount of driving time they clock.
i.e. from parked infront of a trailer to backing under it, say 10 seconds, can clock 2 minutes.On the analogue equipped Actros i usually drive, this is how it goes:
- Most time clocked: my manually operated digital timer.
- Tacho analyst
- Least time clocked: onboard computer
Found this out some time ago. Forgot to set personal timer, relied on computer, was pushing to park and ran it to within a few minutes of max. All our cards are analysed & it came back as having exceeded drive time
i thought you couldn’t i was just about to post that
Driveroneuk:
Neil, am i right in thinking you can count the 1st 15 minutes of POA as break?
No, that isn’t correct. What you may have heard and are getting confused with is the VOSA statement where they say the first 45 minutes of POA for the person whose card/chart is in position 2 in multi-manned operations will be assumed to be break. This is because you cannot record break in position 2 while the vehicle is moving but it will record POA. It doesn’t apply to single manning, if you want it to be counted as break you gotta change the mode.
thank you. 