hi can any body help i work on class 2s and do multi drop. well i will start from the beginning.i was out yesterday started at 4:30 and had 8 big drops to do. to houses all hand ball. with a mate that we swap driving. it was getting close to 17;00 o’clock and would take 2 and half hrs to get back. but still had 2 drops left so i rang up the office. to tell them that i would be out of time. if i did not head back now. not driving just work time. they said i can stay out as i can do 21hrs as i had 2 drivers is this right.not only that but i work a 5 day week on mon i did 11hrs15 min. tu i did 11 on wed i did 13 thu 12:30 all be for breaks so it also would be very close to 63 and a half hrs in the week i said this to her and she just said she will look when i finish all drops but i would have gone over it by then. and if i got pulled i would get done i think. she said u should be ok as long as you do not get pulled just keep away from them.
thanks
What were both your start times and were you both together all shift 
For the first hour of the shift you can be apart.
Think I said that correct
If yes to the above, then as you are double manning, your max shift time is 21 hours in a 30 hour period - that is using a reduced daily break of 9 hours.
When you’re double manned you should have a rest of at least 9 hours within 30 hours from the start of the shift so yes you can legally do a 21 hour spread-over as long as you have the correct breaks.
When double manning you could have the tacho for the co-driver on POA or rest as long as they’re not doing any work so this time wouldn’t count towards your total weekly working time, neither breaks nor POA count towards your weekly working time.
To be honest I’ve never heard of anyone getting done for going over the 60 hours work per week, I’m not even sure that anyone really regulates that requirement unless it comes to light during an investigation into more serious wrong doings 
Multi manning regulations
Within 30 hours of the end of a daily or weekly rest period, a driver engaged in multi-manning must have taken a new daily rest period of at least 9 hours. For the first hour of multi-manning the presence of another driver or drivers is optional, but for the remainder of the period it is compulsory.
Where a vehicle is manned by two or more drivers, each driver must have a daily rest period of at least 9 consecutive hours within the 30-hour period that starts at the end of the last daily or weekly rest period.
Organising drivers’ duties in such a fashion enables their duties to be spread over 21 hours.
For the first hour of multi-manning the presence of another driver or drivers is optional, but for the remainder of the period it is compulsory.
Vehicles manned by two or more drivers are governed by the same rules that apply to single-manned
vehicles, apart from the daily rest requirements.
The maximum driving for a two-man crew taking advantage of this concession is 20 hours before a
daily rest is required (although only if both drivers are entitled to drive 10 hours).
On a multi-manning operation the first 45 minutes of a period of availability will be considered to be a
break, so long as the co-driver does no work.
I spoke to Glenn about this last night on the phone and I cannot believe it can be right that 2 drivers can work for 21 hours side by side driving and handballing kitchens etc - surely there must be provision for each person to have a decent rest during the 21hrs as you would do on a long distance drive where the passenger can get his head down on the bunk or recline the pass seat for a good few hours at a time■■?
How can it be deemed that 15hrs is as much as can be worked with a reduced rest yet here it seems it’s possible to legitimately work a 21 hour shift with potentially as little as 3x15min breaks spread out thru the day - both drivers are going to be knackered and a liability on the road 
It’s all well and good saying you can put the second man on poa or break between drops but that’s not going to get him any time to rest and if he’s navigating or contacting customers/sorting out paperwork for the next drop he’s got to be showing other work on the tacho
I’m sorry but something seems very wrong here - if not from a legal point of view certainly a moral one
Thought - If they do half the driving each then what is the non-driver doing
map-man:
I spoke to Glenn about this last night on the phone and I cannot believe it can be right that 2 drivers can work for 21 hours side by side driving and handballing kitchens etc - surely there must be provision for each person to have a decent rest during the 21hrs as you would do on a long distance drive where the passenger can get his head down on the bunk or recline the pass seat for a good few hours at a time■■?How can it be deemed that 15hrs is as much as can be worked with a reduced rest yet here it seems it’s possible to legitimately work a 21 hour shift with potentially as little as 3x15min breaks spread out thru the day - both drivers are going to be knackered and a liability on the road
It’s all well and good saying you can put the second man on poa or break between drops but that’s not going to get him any time to rest and if he’s navigating or contacting customers/sorting out paperwork for the next drop he’s got to be showing other work on the tacho
I’m sorry but something seems very wrong here - if not from a legal point of view certainly a moral one
Page 17 Drivers Hours and Tachograph Rules
You can’t legally work 21 hours, you can however legally do a 21 hour spread-over with the required breaks.
You can’t legally work a 21 hour shift with only 3x 15 minute breaks unless you do no more than 4.5 hours driving in total.
glenn b didn’t ask what was right or wrong it was assumed that he was asking about the law and the replies above are based on what can legally be done whilst double manning.
map-man:
I’m sorry but something seems very wrong here - if not from a legal point of view certainly a moral one
Sorry mate but we only do legal we don’t do moral
ROG:
your max shift time is 21 hours in a 30 hour period - that is using a reduced daily break of 9 hours.
I don’t see that you would be using a reduced daily rest period in these circumstances ROG, the regulations allow for a 9 consecutive hour rest within the 30 hour period but there’s no mention of it being regarded as a reduced daily rest so it’s not
tachograph:
Page 17 Drivers Hours and Tachograph RulesYou can’t legally work 21 hours, you can however legally do a 21 hour spread-over with the required breaks.
You can’t legally work a 21 hour shift with only 3x 15 minute breaks unless you do no more than 4.5 hours driving in total.
glenn b didn’t ask what was right or wrong it was assumed that he was asking about the law and the replies above are based on what can legally be done whilst double manning.map-man:
I’m sorry but something seems very wrong here - if not from a legal point of view certainly a moral oneSorry mate but we only do legal we don’t do moral
Fair do’s - I’m not to clued up on this side of things which is why I suggested Glenn post on here.
Can you just differentiate between the 2 parts of your first comment - can’t legally work 21hours but can do a 21hr spreadover - I assume you mean it’s not possible to actually work 21 hours because you have to have the appropriate breaks in that period?
Appreciate the point about the breaks but thats why I said potentially as little as 3x15mins, I understand it’s more 2 people for the unloading which is another issue Glenn and me have spoken about.
OK, let me put another slant on this. Say the second man was NOT a driver but just a extra pair of hands for unloading then assuming driving time is say no more than 8hrs and the remainder of the shift was other work with necessary tacho/wtd breaks would they still be able to do a 21hr shift■■?
map-man:
Can you just differentiate between the 2 parts of your first comment - can’t legally work 21hours but can do a 21hr spreadover - I assume you mean it’s not possible to actually work 21 hours because you have to have the appropriate breaks in that period?
Yes that’s exactly what I meant.
map-man:
Appreciate the point about the breaks but thats why I said potentially as little as 3x15mins, I understand it’s more 2 people for the unloading which is another issue Glenn and me have spoken about.
That’s what I meant about only being able to have 3x15 minute breaks if the driving time was no more than 4.5 hours, I’m sure you already know that if you drive for more that 4.5 hours or drive for 4.5 hours and then intend to do more work you would need to complete the 45 minute break and the last part of a split break has to be no less than 30 minutes.
map-man:
OK, let me put another slant on this. Say the second man was NOT a driver but just a extra pair of hands for unloading then assuming driving time is say no more than 8hrs and the remainder of the shift was other work with necessary tacho/wtd breaks would they still be able to do a 21hr shift■■?
No that wouldn’t be classed as multi-manning so the driver would be restricted to a 13 or 15 hour spread-over.
Article 4 (O) REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Definition of multi-manning
‘multi-manning’ means the situation where, during each
period of driving between any two consecutive daily rest
periods, or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest
period, there are at least two drivers in the vehicle to do
the driving. For the first hour of multi-manning the
presence of another driver or drivers is optional but for
the remainder of the period it is compulsory;
tachograph:
ROG:
your max shift time is 21 hours in a 30 hour period - that is using a reduced daily break of 9 hours.I don’t see that you would be using a reduced daily rest period in these circumstances ROG, the regulations allow for a 9 consecutive hour rest within the 30 hour period but there’s no mention of it being regarded as a reduced daily rest so it’s not
Hmm…
Article 8 (5) says that the only derogation from article 8 (2) is that a rest of least 9 hours must be taken. That is the only derogation from 8 (2) so the other rules still apply - 11 hours in the now 30 hour period will be full daily rest and 9 hours will be a reduced one.
I don’t think I read that one wrong…
Double manned does not have to be 21 hours work its a maximum duty time.
2 drivers can do double manned every day 6 days a week as long as there foreful there rest requirements and the max driving hours for each driver.
Thanks Tachograph,
Glenn, as I said before, I reckon it’s time to look elsewhere and make use of that class1 sat on your licence 
ROG:
tachograph:
ROG:
your max shift time is 21 hours in a 30 hour period - that is using a reduced daily break of 9 hours.I don’t see that you would be using a reduced daily rest period in these circumstances ROG, the regulations allow for a 9 consecutive hour rest within the 30 hour period but there’s no mention of it being regarded as a reduced daily rest so it’s not
Hmm…
Article 8 (5) says that the only derogation from article 8 (2) is that a rest of least 9 hours must be taken. That is the only derogation from 8 (2) so the other rules still apply - 11 hours in the now 30 hour period will be full daily rest and 9 hours will be a reduced one.I don’t think I read that one wrong…
I agree that it would be a reduced daily rest period 
An attempt to clarify the reason:
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Article 4 (g)
‘daily rest period’ means the daily period during which a
driver may freely dispose of his time and covers a ‘regular
daily rest period’ and a ‘reduced daily rest period’:
– ‘regular daily rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 11 hours. Alternatively, this regular daily
rest period may be taken in two periods, the first of
which must be an uninterrupted period of at least 3
hours and the second an uninterrupted period of at
least nine hours,
– ‘reduced daily rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least nine hours but less than 11 hours;
Article 8 (5)
By way of derogation from paragraph 2, within 30 hours
of the end of a daily or weekly rest period, a driver engaged in
multi-manning must have taken a new daily rest period of at
least nine hours.
it would not be a reduced rest as it does not say reduced
-
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that
24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours,
then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a
reduced daily rest period. -
By way of derogation from paragraph 2, within 30 hours
of the end of a daily or weekly rest period, a driver engaged in
multi-manning must have taken a new daily rest period of at
least nine hours.
but as the rule is for 30 hours if the crew did work all week then there only have to take a 9 hour rest per 21 hours work and this can be done all the time as doubled manned you would never need to take a 11 hour rest only your 45 hour weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest
but if you don’t do the hours in full then the rest the crew takes is up to them as long as it 9 hours per shift but if there shift is always less than 24 hours as doubled manned then you would have to follow the standard regs
A “daily rest period” covers a regular daily rest and a reduced daily rest, any rest period of less than 11 hours but more than 9 hours is a reduced daily rest period (article 4 (g)).
I thought the same as you at first but now believe that the 9 hours daily rest would be a reduced daily rest as it’s described in article 8.5 as a “daily rest period” of at least 9 hours, if the rest was 11 hours or more then it would be a regular daily rest.
I don’t believe it needs to say “reduced daily rest” as the meaning of daily rest and reduced daily rest is described in article 4.
In spite of what ROG said in a previous post the derogation is actually the extension to 30 hours that a daily rest should be completed by and not the 9 hours rest period.
Hate to say it but I think ROG was correct even if he did get the logic the wrong way round 
Well that’s the way I now see it anyway
tachograph:
A “daily rest period” covers a regular daily rest and a reduced daily rest, any rest period of less than 11 hours but more than 9 hours is a reduced daily rest period (article 4 (g)).I thought the same as you at first but now believe that the 9 hours daily rest would be a reduced daily rest as it’s described in article 8.5 as a “daily rest period” of at least 9 hours, if the rest was 11 hours or more then it would be a regular daily rest.
I don’t believe it needs to say “reduced daily rest” as the meaning of daily rest and reduced daily rest is described in article 4.
are you saying that you must take a 11 hour rest if your have no 9 hour rests left in double maned, cos if so then the 21 hours work part would not be available to the crew all week there would lose hour to for fill the rest
tachograph
When multi-manning the reduced daily rest (15 hour spread-over) doesn’t really enter into the equation as you can legally do a 30 hour spread-over anyway
You must start a weekly rest period no later than 6 x 24 hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period so I would say you could legally do 4 x 30 hour spread-overs.
Example:
Start Monday
06:00 Monday to 12:00 Tuesday = 30 hours including a 9 hour daily rest.
12:00 Tuesday to 18:00 Wednesday = 30 hours including a 9 hour daily rest.
18:00 Wednesday to 24:00 Thursday = 30 hours including a 9 hour daily rest.
24:00 Thursday to 06:00 Saturday = 30 hours including a 9 hour daily rest.As you would need to start a weekly rest period by 06:00 Sunday that seems to be the maximum you could do, there would be nothing to stop you from multi-manning from 06:00 Saturday until 06:00 Sunday but then you would need to start a weekly rest period or a reduced weekly rest period.
Having said that I would have thought it a little unlikely that you would normally maximise your hours to the extent that you would do the full 30 hour spread-over on 4 consecutive shifts but perhaps not impossible.
in your example you posted you did not put any 11 rest in so going on what as be said would the example be right sill
delboytwo:
in your example you posted you did not put any 11 rest in so going on what as be said would the example be right sill
Probably not as I see it now, but I think we need a more definitive answer on the 9 hours rest period for multi-manned trips.
Let’s end the argument.
When a vehicle is multi-manned the daily rest requirement is 9 hours within 30 hours of the previous rest period (daily or weekly) ending.
The 9 hours is all that is required, it is not a reduced daily rest.
geebee45:
Let’s end the argument.When a vehicle is multi-manned the daily rest requirement is 9 hours within 30 hours of the previous rest period (daily or weekly) ending.
The 9 hours is all that is required, it is not a reduced daily rest.
So the derogation covers more than what it says -
- By way of derogation from paragraph 2, within 30 hours
of the end of a daily or weekly rest period, a driver engaged in
multi-manning must have taken a new daily rest period of at
least nine hours.
To me, it does not say that the 9 hours is regarded as a full daily rest - it just says that at least 9 must be taken…
ADD - Are we saying that the derogation refers to just the maximum shift time allowed or are we saying that the derogation refers to the basic length of rest time regulations as well, which seems odd as it does not seem to give a derogation from the other regs such as driving time
geebee45:
Let’s end the argument.When a vehicle is multi-manned the daily rest requirement is 9 hours within 30 hours of the previous rest period (daily or weekly) ending.
The 9 hours is all that is required, it is not a reduced daily rest.
That’s good but how does it fit in with article 4 (g) ?
(g) ‘daily rest period’ means the daily period during which a
driver may freely dispose of his time and covers a ‘regular
daily rest period’ and a ‘reduced daily rest period’:
– ‘regular daily rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 11 hours. Alternatively, this regular daily
rest period may be taken in two periods, the first of
which must be an uninterrupted period of at least 3
hours and the second an uninterrupted period of at
least nine hours,
– ‘reduced daily rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least nine hours but less than 11 hours;