Mike-C:
Its already law that your employer should instruct you on how to use your work equiptment.
From a Health & Safety standpoint, yes. But the H & S risks from operation of a digi tacho are what, exactly?
Roymondo:
But the H & S risks from operation of a digi tacho are what, exactly?
Brain strain 
Roymondo:
Mike-C:
Its already law that your employer should instruct you on how to use your work equiptment.From a Health & Safety standpoint, yes. But the H & S risks from operation of a digi tacho are what, exactly?
I think its from a “provision” standpoint actually. Clues in the title of the Legislation, which also covers inspection, function etc.
Mike-C:
Roymondo:
Mike-C:
Its already law that your employer should instruct you on how to use your work equiptment.From a Health & Safety standpoint, yes. But the H & S risks from operation of a digi tacho are what, exactly?
I think its from a “provision” standpoint actually. Clues in the title of the Legislation, which also covers inspection, function etc.
Yes, and what does it say as regards instruction/training?
It says:
Information and instructions
- (1) Every employer shall ensure that all persons who use work equipment have available to them adequate health and safety information and, where appropriate, written instructions pertaining to the use of the work equipment.
Training
- (1) Every employer shall ensure that all persons who use work equipment have received adequate training for purposes of health and safety, including training in the methods which may be adopted when using the work equipment, any risks which such use may entail and precautions to be taken.
So, to ask the question again - what are the Health & Safety risks associated with operating a digi tacho? And if there are any, and they are addressed by the instruction/training supplied by the employer, what impact will this instruction/training have on the employee’s knowledge or understanding of the Drivers Hours Regs? I’ll give you a hint - the answer begins with “None…” and ends with “…whatsoever.”
Roymondo:
Mike-C:
Roymondo:
Mike-C:
Its already law that your employer should instruct you on how to use your work equiptment.From a Health & Safety standpoint, yes. But the H & S risks from operation of a digi tacho are what, exactly?
I think its from a “provision” standpoint actually. Clues in the title of the Legislation, which also covers inspection, function etc.
Yes, and what does it say as regards instruction/training?
It says:
Information and instructions
- (1) Every employer shall ensure that all persons who use work equipment have available to them adequate health and safety information and, where appropriate, written instructions pertaining to the use of the work equipment.
Training
- (1) Every employer shall ensure that all persons who use work equipment have received adequate training for purposes of health and safety, including training in the methods which may be adopted when using the work equipment, any risks which such use may entail and precautions to be taken.
So, to ask the question again - what are the Health & Safety risks associated with operating a digi tacho? And if there are any, and they are addressed by the instruction/training supplied by the employer, what impact will this instruction/training have on the employee’s knowledge or understanding of the Drivers Hours Regs? I’ll give you a hint - the answer begins with “None…” and ends with “…whatsoever.”
I’m not sure where you’re going? The law says PUWER applies to all work related equiptment. You’re throwing H&S in the mix, of course a lot of the legislation does indeed cater for H&S risks. I see nothing in the legislation that states its “only” for H&S reasons. Its title says it all “Provision and Use”, as does its application at para (3), and the bits you omitted fro the paras you quoted.
If i had to guess, i’d think you’re trying to say PUWER does not apply to the operation of tachographs as there appears to be no H&S issue? Although an employers RA might show if this was the case or not? The same RA would highlight the need for checking the inspection tags/stickers and ensuring the correct functioning of the recording equiptment would it not? As such would be a PUWER requirement.
So to answer your question, i’ve no idea what the risks are as i’ve never done an RA on a tachograph. But i do know its inspection is not only a PUWER requirement, its a requirement under COUNCIL REGULATION (EEC) No 3821/85…
CHAPTER IV
Use of equipment
Article 13
The employer and drivers shall ensure the correct functioning and
proper use of, on the one hand, the recording equipment and, on the
other, the driver card where a driver is required to drive a vehicle fitted
with recording equipment in conformity with Annex IB.
So to tie them together for you, it works thus…
the tachograph legislation makes it a requirement that a driver checks its correct functioning.
The PUWER legislation makes it a requirement that its checked also as its provision and use is bound by such legislation, you’ve quoted para 9 above. That should suffice and make it understandable.
Roymondo:
[what impact will this instruction/training have on the employee’s knowledge or understanding of the Drivers Hours Regs? I’ll give you a hint - the answer begins with “None…” and ends with “…whatsoever.”
Sorry, nearly missed this bit (typing too fast !!). You seem to be going round the houses with your questions. Anyway…a driver should know the Drivers Hours Regs. PUWER or Tachograph regulations are not going to sort that out. However basic drivers hours legislation is covered by the current LGV driving tests. Further to this basic knowledge it is the employers responsability (561/2006 regs) to ensure the driver complies with the legislation. In plain speak, and from personal experience that means get it wrong to often and they send you on a drivers hours course to ensure you know what you’re doing!!
You seem to be struggling with an understanding of all this basic stuff?
Mike-C:
So to tie them together for you, it works thus…
the tachograph legislation makes it a requirement that a driver checks its correct functioning.
The PUWER legislation makes it a requirement that its checked also as its provision and use is bound by such legislation, you’ve quoted para 9 above. That should suffice and make it understandable.
In your haste to quote the legislation, you appear to have lost the plot. Specifically, the question posed was “should anyone that applies for a DIGI card be required to take a test to show that your competent and understand the basics in using the Digi including manual entries” to which you replied “Its already law that your employer should instruct you on how to use your work equiptment.”
PUWER etc (which is what puts the requirement on the employer to provide instruction/training on the kit provided) makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of this type of competency. It’s a bit like quoting the Con & Use Regs regarding the fitting and maintenance of speedometers in answer to a question about drivers knowing what the speed limits are for their particular class of vehicle - i.e. totally irrelevant.
And no, I’m not struggling to understand it at all.
Dipper_Dave:
Although those where the days when Hiab training was a case of ‘theres your truck, just pull the PTO and play with the levers, sure you will figure it out, Oh and while your at it take this 2 ton container to this construction site’.Can’t beat being thrown in at the deep end, probably frowned upon a bit now though.
That was my first experience with a hiab and it wasn’t that long ago! 
Roymondo:
Mike-C:
So to tie them together for you, it works thus…
the tachograph legislation makes it a requirement that a driver checks its correct functioning.
The PUWER legislation makes it a requirement that its checked also as its provision and use is bound by such legislation, you’ve quoted para 9 above. That should suffice and make it understandable.In your haste to quote the legislation, you appear to have lost the plot. Specifically, the question posed was “should anyone that applies for a DIGI card be required to take a test to show that your competent and understand the basics in using the Digi including manual entries” to which you replied “Its already law that your employer should instruct you on how to use your work equiptment.”
PUWER etc (which is what puts the requirement on the employer to provide instruction/training on the kit provided) makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of this type of competency. It’s a bit like quoting the Con & Use Regs regarding the fitting and maintenance of speedometers in answer to a question about drivers knowing what the speed limits are for their particular class of vehicle - i.e. totally irrelevant.
And no, I’m not struggling to understand it at all.
The current tachograph (not drivers hours regs) legislation makes it a must that a driver needs to check its operation. Its backed up by the provisions of PUWER. Its clear to me its an empoyers responsability for you to be able to use the thing. I’ve lost no plot. You where off on a H&S thing, and then how does it learn you drivers hours. Based on your questions in this thread, you appear to not have a grasp. If you did you wouldn’t of asked the questions you did, you know them stupid ones the OP’s on about?
NO MENTION WHATSOVER of competency ?
Lets see…
(2) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer in respect of work equipment shall apply to such equipment provided for use or used by an employee of his at work.
Then just start at para 4 and read down, save me copying and pasting…
legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2306/made
Roymondo:
you appear to have lost the plot.
LOL!! 
Had you going though, didn’t i ? Of course you’re right, i just made all that ■■■■■■■■ up.
Load of Health and Saftey crap that. I really agree with what the OP said. Unfortunatley for me, you rumbled me .
Sarcasm noted (I can do that as well, you know).
But…
I know full well that there are obligations placed on the driver to check the equipment for correct operation, and that there are obligations on the operator to maintain the kit, and to ensure that the driver works within the legislation (principally by scheduling work appropriately) - but that doesn’t extend to obligating the employer to provide instruction for drivers on how to operate the tacho, make manual entries etc.
Oh, and I don’t need to obtain “clues” as to the purpose of PUWER from its title - Instead of starting at Para 4 and scrolling down, just scroll up to just above the title and you will find three words in even bigger, bolder print… (The effect is best observed in the printed, PDF version)
Folks, it’s all well and good talking about training and assessments. All well and good on planet pink and fluffy. I have motorbike, car, c, c+e, all the stuff that comes along with it.
So are you saying that I need to be assessed on every single class of vehicle periodically. Needless to say I will need to be able to use a manual and automatic variant of each. For tacho vehicles, I’ll need to be able to use a paper, both analogue and digi tacho. As there are both variants of paper in use. Digi tachos, I’ll need to be able to use a Stoneridge as well as a Siemens.
Where do we draw the line?This week I’ve driven 2 DAF manuals, an Iveco auto, and a Merc manual.
First DAF had a Stoneridge, the rest had Siemens.
To be fully aware of what I’m doing, do I need to prove I can use the cruise, exhaust brake, radio, night heater, cup holder, etc etc etc on every model of vehicle on the road?
NOVE:
Folks, it’s all well and good talking about training and assessments. All well and good on planet pink and fluffy. I have motorbike, car, c, c+e, all the stuff that comes along with it.So are you saying that I need to be assessed on every single class of vehicle periodically. Needless to say I will need to be able to use a manual and automatic variant of each. For tacho vehicles, I’ll need to be able to use a paper, both analogue and digi tacho. As there are both variants of paper in use. Digi tachos, I’ll need to be able to use a Stoneridge as well as a Siemens.
Where do we draw the line?This week I’ve driven 2 DAF manuals, an Iveco auto, and a Merc manual.
First DAF had a Stoneridge, the rest had Siemens.
To be fully aware of what I’m doing, do I need to prove I can use the cruise, exhaust brake, radio, night heater, cup holder, etc etc etc on every model of vehicle on the road?
You don’t need to fret, mate - your employer is apparently obliged by law to provide instruction on the operation of everything…
Roymondo:
You don’t need to fret, mate - your employer is apparently obliged by law to provide instruction on the operation of everything…
They pretty much are to be honest. Their Duty of Care encompasses the whole of your work, the places you go to and the equiptment you use, the hours you work and your rest periods/breaks. OK, in the real world a hell of a lot don’t, they should but they don’t.
BTW i’ve read on some of them employment lawyer blogs, that there may well be a case for employers (for those who don’t currently provide it) to HAVE to provide DCPC training to their drivers , due entirley to the requirements of PUWER. And of course there’s the Health and Saftey at work Act to adhere to, which a lot in the transport Industry do NOT apply.
Roymondo:
Sarcasm noted (I can do that as well, you know).But…
I know full well that there are obligations placed on the driver to check the equipment for correct operation, and that there are obligations on the operator to maintain the kit, and to ensure that the driver works within the legislation (principally by scheduling work appropriately) - but that doesn’t extend to obligating the employer to provide instruction for drivers on how to operate the tacho, make manual entries etc.
Oh, and I don’t need to obtain “clues” as to the purpose of PUWER from its title - Instead of starting at Para 4 and scrolling down, just scroll up to just above the title and you will find three words in even bigger, bolder print…
Yeah i got that. I’d say its pretty much a H&S issue if a driver is going about his work and doesn’t know what he’s doing. He’ll be stressed for a start !! No good for Health
There’s stacks of other legislation that applies too, right from hours regs, Operator licencing etc…
You may think otherwise, but i’m certain its an employers responsability to ensure his employee knows what he’s doing, and to check periodically that he knows what he’s doing. The fines empolyers are now recieving when something goes wrong are quite astronomical. Who’d of thought an employer would need to go checking what his employees do, or the fact they are indeed adhering to the working practices meeted out by the employer? They where supposed to be experienced qualified drivers? Doesn’t cut the mustard now.
But how does it affect the driver’s health and/or safety if he doesn’t know how to (say) change the paper roll, adjust the clock, interrogate the ■■■■■■■■■■ time displays or make manual entries?
There are 100 questions in the theory test, all random and contain questions on Drivers hours, breaks and regs.
Did mine in Feb 2014. Doing 5 days CPC in one hit this month. I can see why experienced drivers would be anti CPC but it’s probably a good idea for folk like me new to the game?
Tom.
Roymondo:
But how does it affect the driver’s health and/or safety if he doesn’t know how to (say) change the paper roll, adjust the clock, interrogate the ■■■■■■■■■■ time displays or make manual entries?
You’re asking a question i don’t know the answer to, i never said it was a H&S issue. I’m saying there’s plenty of legislation in place for the Provision and Use of Work Equiptment, i’m also saying it encompasses a lot more than just your percieved issue of the drivers Health and Saftey.
It could be the case that a driver who does not know how to operate his tachograph or record his hours although fine in himself, might, be a danger to others ?
There’s also the issue of the instruction manual for the Unit, they don’t print them out for fun. Like i said at the outset, there’s legislation in place to ensure that you don’t have a driver in a cab that does not know what he’s doing. You’re implying, there is not or only if its a H&S issue ? Or just rebuking my statement that there is legislation in place to make sure people know, are trained, have been assesed or whatever? Where ya going next?!!!
Mike-C:
i never said it was a H&S issue
But, less than an hour and a half earlier
Mike-C:
I’d say its pretty much a H&S issue
Perhaps you’ll make your mind up one way or the other?
Roymondo:
Mike-C:
i never said it was a H&S issueBut, less than an hour and a half earlier
Mike-C:
I’d say its pretty much a H&S issuePerhaps you’ll make your mind up one way or the other?
Try rewind and get it in context.