17 week ref period

Rjan:

tachograph:

Roymondo:

ETS:
So if I’m on agency and am about to go over the 48 hrs/week and client pulls the reigns I can go to another client/agency, rite?

Yes - but your tachograph records will go with you, and the “new” agency/client will immediately see exactly the same hours worked as the old one did…

That is of course true but I wonder where the driver would stand if the second company has different reference periods to the first company.

Presumably if the driver isn’t exceeding the 48 hour week in the second companies reference period he/she could legally continue working :bulb:

The reference period can be up to 52 weeks by collective agreement, but that just means you’d have to dial down your hours even more aggressively at the end.

The reference period can be extended from 17 weeks to a maximum of 26 weeks.

Conor:

tachograph:
That is of course true but I wonder where the driver would stand if the second company has different reference periods to the first company.

Presumably if the driver isn’t exceeding the 48 hour week in the second companies reference period he/she could legally continue working :bulb:

No because they’re still exceeding the 48hr week for the first company because the hours you work at the second company are still counted in the current reference period for the first company. If you hit the limit for the first company 4 weeks before the end of their reference period and go work somewhere else and do 50hrs a week for the four weeks there, those 200hrs still count for company 1 as well so you’d be 200hrs over.

I don’t think that’s correct to be honest.

The reference period is relevant to either “all of the relevant members of the workforce, or, to all of the relevant members of the workforce who belong to a particular group”.

If you no longer work for a company I don’t see how you can belong to either the workforce of that company or a particular group within that workforce.

Conor:

ETS:
So if I’m on agency and am about to go over the 48 hrs/week and client pulls the reigns I can go to another client/agency, rite?

Wrong. It is that total of hours regardless of how many employers you have. You are supposed to inform each employer of the number of hours you’ve done with another employer and this is your responsibility to do.

So if they hire me they’d be braking the law/WTD?

Yes and so are you by not informing them of your hours you’ve worked elsewhere. If you did this and got caught they’d have a get out of jail free card because you’d not informed them of the work you previously had done. You on the other hand would be well in the crap.

It is actually quite the other way around. It is the employer who is responsible for recording and monitoring the hours of workers, not the worker’s responsibility to keep records and provide them to the employer.

Obviously in the situation where there are multiple employers, at least one of whom is exceeding normal limits, there may have to be an exchange of information and coordination between them.

But an employer is not freed from their obligations simply because a worker conceals the fact that he has done other work, or because they operate in a manner that presumes the honesty of the worker even in the most unlikely circumstances (who may be setting out precisely to circumvent the regulations).

If you employ a worker full-time 5 or 6 days a week, and over time you get to know his character and lifestyle, it is normally a reasonable assumption that he is not working elsewhere, especially if he knows that he must not - it is borne out in practice and in common experience, that very few full-time workers do second jobs, and it could not be as a driver since that would quickly be apparent on his tacho card (so it would have to be not just a second job but a second occupation).

A judge would surely look sympathetically on an employer who genuinely did not know of a second job in such circumstances, not to mention being impressed with the audacity and the stamina of the worker doing a second job during his evenings or weekends.

But if you are employing casuals or seasonals, it is not reasonable to suppose the worker even has accurate records (since a worker is not obliged to keep them to begin with), let alone is it reasonable for an employer to rely on the unsupported information the worker provides, when that is subject to no oversight nor to the implicit controls (as I’ve mentioned) which exist over full-timers.

It would not in my view be anything like a “get out of jail free card” for an employer or operator who is found to be rampantly exceeding limits. Rather, a judge would declare that the employer’s systems and methods of employment were inadequate and insufficient to meet their legal obligations.

tachograph:

Conor:

tachograph:
That is of course true but I wonder where the driver would stand if the second company has different reference periods to the first company.

Presumably if the driver isn’t exceeding the 48 hour week in the second companies reference period he/she could legally continue working :bulb:

No because they’re still exceeding the 48hr week for the first company because the hours you work at the second company are still counted in the current reference period for the first company. If you hit the limit for the first company 4 weeks before the end of their reference period and go work somewhere else and do 50hrs a week for the four weeks there, those 200hrs still count for company 1 as well so you’d be 200hrs over.

I don’t think that’s correct to be honest.

The reference period is relevant to either “all of the relevant members of the workforce, or, to all of the relevant members of the workforce who belong to a particular group”.

If you no longer work for a company I don’t see how you can belong to either the workforce of that company or a particular group within that workforce.

If you aren’t subject to a collective agreement, then the regulations provide for how the reference period will be defined and applied to a particular worker. And the reference period applies to the individual worker and all the work he does, not to each employment separately.

tachograph:

Rjan:
The reference period can be up to 52 weeks by collective agreement, but that just means you’d have to dial down your hours even more aggressively at the end.

The reference period can be extended from 17 weeks to a maximum of 26 weeks.

Yes, it is only in special cases where the WTD reference period can be up to 52 weeks by collective agreement, and only for those who fall under the GB domestic rules. I should have qualified that statement accordingly.

esphr.co.uk/resources/subject/W … egulations

worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/ho … od-working

tachograph:
I don’t think that’s correct to be honest.

The reference period is relevant to either “all of the relevant members of the workforce, or, to all of the relevant members of the workforce who belong to a particular group”.

If you no longer work for a company I don’t see how you can belong to either the workforce of that company or a particular group within that workforce.

In my example above they were still employed by the first company but stood down because they’d reached the limit on the hours for that company’s reference period so could no longer legally work until the start of the new reference period.They hadn’t left. If in that time they were stood down they say signed up with an agency and drove for them they’d be breaking the WTD rules because the hours they did on agency count in the rerefence period for their main employer.

The only way it could be legal is if they handed in their notice and quit their job at the first employer.