15 hour shifts (again)

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

I’ve been reading all the different views people have on how many times a week you can do 15 hour shifts.
I read the comments again and again, but maybe I’m being thick :confused:
It seems to me that people are saying you can do 15 every day, IF some of that time is taken as POA or breaks.

But the tacho regs say that your working shift and your daily rest, MUST all fit inside a 24 hour period.

So if I start at 6am monday, and work until 21.00 that is 15 hours and I have a reduced daily rest so that I can start again at 6am tuesday.

I can do that on monday, tuesday, wednesday.

But on thursday and friday, I must take 11 hour daily rests, so how can I possibly work 15 hours, have 11 hours daily rest and still be able to start at 6am ?
It would be a 26 hour day if I didn’t start until 8am, but then my work and daily rest don’t fit inside a single 24 hour period.

Under the WTD, I can use POA to lower the actual hours shown as worked, but POA does not allow you to extend your normal day more than 24 hours under tacho regs. Any one days work and daily rest must occur in the same 24 hour period. ( or look at it like this - on an analogue tacho chart, you must not allow the start and finish lines to overlap.)

So am I going wrong somewhere here ?

2

The problem is the terminology. many of us still speak of 16 hour spreadovers, class one licences and crashboxes. :smiley:

You are correct in that you can only reduce your daily rest 3 times but even then you will hear drivers tell you they had 11 hours break last night when they probably had less than 9

3

smoker:
I’ve been reading all the different views people have on how many times a week you can do 15 hour shifts.
I read the comments again and again, but maybe I’m being thick :confused:
It seems to me that people are saying you can do 15 every day, IF some of that time is taken as POA or breaks.

You can indeed ‘do 15’ every day if you use the split daily rest option.

Split daily rest allows the rest to be taken in two parts, the first must be at least 3 hours and the second at least 9.

Example
Begin 06:00
06:00 - 12:00 Work, Driving, POA, Break(s)
3 hour rest
15:00 - 21:00 Work, Driving, POA, Break(s)
9 Hour rest.
06:00 Resume next shift.

A split rest does not count as a reduced rest, mainly because you aren’t reduceing it you are increasing it to at least 12 hours.

I use this option in the weeks I do 3 trips to Dublin. I work 6 days and each shift is 14 - 15 hours but contains a rest period of around 4 hours while on the ferry. If it wasn’t for the split daily rest option I wouldn’t be able to legally do the 3 trips in the week.

Container drivers use this a lot as they are the most likely to get an uninterrupted period if at least 3 hours in during the shift

Without using the split daily rest option you can ‘do 15’ 3 times between weekly rest periods. Because it is between weekly rest periods if you take a weekly rest in the middle of the week you can reduce your daily rest below 11 hours more than 3 times in the fixed week.

Example
Monday 06:00 - 21:00
Tuesday 06:00 - 21:00
Wednesday 06:00 - 21:00
Reduced Weekly Rest.
Friday 06:00 - 21:00
Saturday 06:00 - 21:00
Sunday 06:00 - 21:00

So the answer depends very much on the terminology used in the question

Q. How many times can you ‘do 15’ a week

A. Six is possible.

Q. How many times can you ‘do 15’ between weekly rest periods?

A. Three if reducing daily rest but up to six if using split daily rest option.

4

Good, I’m not missing out on extra hours then. I don’t mind long hours, but I’m ■■■■■■ if I’ll break the law just coz the boss wants something done ASAP. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something obvious that allowed me to do those extra hours (and was ■■■■■■■ the boss off for no reason).

Coffee, your actual working hours are only 12 hours in your example. Daily rest doesn’t count as working time on the tacho. But thanks for explaining how it can “appear” to be a 15 hour working day. It still has to fit inside the 24 hour period which is what was confusing me.

I was concerned that people were saying you could “work” a 15 hour shift every day, which with split rests you’re not doing.

:bulb:

On a related note, if I take a reduced weekly rest, say 36 hours, and then pay it back within 2 days, can I then take another reduced weekly rest the very next week ? Or can I only have a reduced weekly rest once every 2 weeks ?
ie
a) 36 + 24 , 36 + 24, 36 + 24
or
b) 45, 36 +24, 45, 36 + 24, 45
or
c) 45, 36 + 24, 36 + 24, 45, 36 + 24, 36 + 24, 45

etc
Being on agency, I often get jobs offered for a sunday after I’ve worked 5 days in the previous week. But then end up with monday off.

5

smoker:
Coffee, your actual working hours are only 12 hours in your example.

Less than that, there are some breaks and POA in there as well. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: At no point did I say it was 15 hours work, hence the ‘do 15’ with the quotation marks or reference to a shift being 14 -15 hours long and containing a 4 hour rest period.

smoker:
Daily rest doesn’t count as working time on the tacho. But thanks for explaining how it can “appear” to be a 15 hour working day. It still has to fit inside the 24 hour period which is what was confusing me.

Exactly

smoker:
I was concerned that people were saying you could “work” a 15 hour shift every day, which with split rests you’re not doing

Terminology again. Most people describe the time between starting work and finishing for the day as working, regardless of what they actually do during that time. If someone works from 06:00 to 21:00 with a couple of 45 minute breaks they will tend to call that a 15 hour shift or say they have worked 15 hours.

Office workers are often said to work 9 - 5 but there will be a couple of coffee breaks and a lunch break in that time.

6

smoker:
On a related note, if I take a reduced weekly rest, say 36 hours, and then pay it back within 2 days, can I then take another reduced weekly rest the very next week ? Or can I only have a reduced weekly rest once every 2 weeks ?
ie
a) 36 + 24 , 36 + 24, 36 + 24
or
b) 45, 36 +24, 45, 36 + 24, 45
or
c) 45, 36 + 24, 36 + 24, 45, 36 + 24, 36 + 24, 45

etc
Being on agency, I often get jobs offered for a sunday after I’ve worked 5 days in the previous week. But then end up with monday off.

You can have as many reduced rests as you like, more than 1 a week if you need to, regardless of whether you have done the pay back or not. The only requirement is that you have at least one regular and one reduced in any two consecutive weeks. If you do take two reduced weekly rest periods in the same week only one of them needs compensating for.

Example
Monday begin work after a full weekly rest period.
Monday 06:00 - 18:00
Tuesday 06:00 - 19:00
Reduced weekly rest period 33 hours
Thursday 04:00 - 17:00
Friday 06:00 - 17:00
Saturday 06:00 - 12:00
Reduced weekly rest period 24 hours
Sunday 12:00 - 21:00
Monday 06:00 18:00
Tuesday 06:00 18:00
Wednesday 05:00 19:00
Thursday 06:00 18:00
Friday 06:00 20:00
Regular weekly rest period

In that example only one of the reduced weekly rest periods requires compensation, the 33 hour one would be the easiest to compensate for, and the 24 hour one is simply there to allow more shifts to be done before the next required weekly rest. If that period from Saturday to Sunday had been less than 24 hours the next rest period would have had to commence no later than 04:00 Wednesday instead of being able to work beyond that point.

7

The only requirement is that you have at least one regular and one reduced in any two consecutive weeks.

Ok, thanks.