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Government announcement on HGV shortage

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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Winseer » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:59 am

There are a couple of dangers here:

If we return to the old system where one can pass directly the Class 1, and then acquire the entitlement to drive class 2 and wagon+drag entitlements despite having had no training/experience at that point:

WHO will, in future - choose to do the now optional Class 2, just to get lumbered with the huge amount of "Knowhow"-type work available, rather than "Dead Man's Shoes" Bakery jobs?

This government decision - could very well merely shunt the current overall HGV worker shortage - to a C2 shortage, which then in turn - leads to the rising of C2 wages up and beyond what C+E drivers get...

The other danger is that should C2 pay rise in this way - that C+E holders, especially the younger, fitter ones among our number (!) will opt to ditch their C+E job for a now-higher-paid C2 job, leaving the "shortage" to then run full circle.

The major factor that the government seems to be side-stepping at present - is that their solution *sounds* like a long-term one, but in fact would only work if we returned to pre-lockdown levels on pretty much everything - soon.

I think that we've entered a new era, like it or not though.
Nothing will quite be the same again, and the next economic boom - will only be for those workers who've decided not to return to their former lands across the seas..... :idea:


https://allpoetry.com/poem/15712767-Richard-II-and-the-Peasants-Revolt-by-Toby-Phillips

"Rustics you were, and Rustics - you are still."

(The Peasant's revolt - rose up following a severe labour shortage among the decimated population following the Black Death two generations earlier...
A possible sharp rise in pay and conditions, due under the basic supply-and-demand capitalist system - never happened thanks to the actions of young Richard II, who was later overthrown and left to perish in a dungeon by future lancastrian usurper - Henry Bollingbrooke, aka Henry IV of England..)

To this day, "Supply and Demand" only seems to be one-sided, and entitle already-wealthy employers to get rid of people when there is a surplus of labour, and not upkeep the common good when "Times are 'ard".


In my mind, it is those who have prosperered under the lockdown - that should bear upon *their* shoulders the full cost of any future recovery.

There's no point even attempting to kick people at the bottom from here on, as a lot of us are dropping out of tax, due to low earnings. You can raise basic income taxes as much as you want then, and the Rich will offset ever more, whilst the poor don't earn enough to pay those raise taxes.

Clearly, a different solution is required.

The Government's current direction on post-pandemic Britian - will likely fail the moment future foreign settlers here - rely on the state benefits, rather than strive to get one of the now MANY low-paid jobs in our economy.

Meanwhile, home-grown Brits - are not going to be choosing to come off benefits or even Furlough - if their new job and duties has them working twice as hard, half as many more hours, for only 20% higher pay than before.
Inflation - will likely erode away the 20% pay rise as well, with Gas up 800% from the lows of last year alone...
https://www.profinance.ru/charts/?s=GasUK&p=R2FzVUsjMiMxMCM3MjcjMzY2IzcjMA==


At least there is growing pressure to keep the "Temporary" uplift in place, due to otherwise end at the "End of the Lockdown"...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57909480
(Article 2 hours old at time of posting this edit.)
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Conor » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:09 pm

Fuzrat wrote:"The Grocer reported that Tesco is throwing away 50 tonnes of fresh food a week because it doesn’t have enough lorry drivers to get it to stores."


It does, it's just that they spend 50% of their shift at the RDC waiting to get tipped.
Conor.

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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Zac_A » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:17 pm

Juddian wrote:Hopefully they'll mandate that if going straight to class 1 that the instruction time actually spent behind the wheel is at least as much as the average time spent learning the current two courses.
Straight to class 1 used to be a ten day course, test on the Friday usually, this worked well because it gave ample time for learning proper lorry control not just how to pass the test.


+1, yes that would be very wise indeed, I hope they put something in place to make that a reality
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Zac_A » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:30 pm

toonsy wrote:Just shows that rigid drivers arent real lorry drivers after all. Just skip the pointless test to get to the good stuff :razz: :twisted:


I know that's just tongue in cheek Toonsy, but coincidentally, my local council have just halved the frequency of household waste collections because 35% (and rising) of crews are isolating because of being pinged by the NHS app.
Still plenty of need for Class 2 in this world, and doing kerbside work all day is a heck of a lot harder than trunking down the motorway IME, I know I wouldn't want to go back to doing it.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby ROG » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:42 pm

Not long found out from contacts that many foreign lorry drivers have gone back to their countries of origin because of brexit and covid rules
Those drivers can now earn more with less travel hassle in other EU countries
LINK TO - LGV TRAINING TIPS - LGV INSTRUCTOR 2005 to 2008 - LGV DRIVER 1978 TO 2004
OBSERVER FOR ADVANCED DRIVING 1998 to 2016
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby dozy » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:42 pm

ROG wrote:Not long found out from contacts that many foreign lorry drivers have gone back to their countries of origin because of brexit and covid rules
Those drivers can now earn more with less travel hassle in other EU countries

Makes you wonder then ROg why they haven’t all gone home if they can earn more in Poland , Romania etc etc ,my understanding is brexit made them feel they weren’t welcome here
Let’s hope all those who forced them out ( voted for brexit ) don’t get the same welcome if they have to work / travel abroad , but knowing the 2 faced idiots they be having a pint with them and telling them how much they miss them !!!!
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby JIMBO47 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:58 pm

I know it’s not the same but in Manitoba Canada you have to take 121hrs training nowadays to a get class one licence. Due to East Indians etc lack of regard to other motorists and wiping out many!
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby WaggerWagger888 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 pm

robroy wrote:
Yorkshire Tramper wrote:
robroy wrote:Here's a revolutionary idea....Make general terms and conditions better, starting with bringing the permitted daily and weekly hours down, with wages adjusted accordingly in correlation with new hours.
Bring the industry into Century 21, make the job attractive as it once was.
Who tf in their right mind wants to start a new job or carreer where your work expectancy exceeds 70 + hours every [zb] week.
I know that longer hours go hand in hand with the type of work, but a 60 hour max working week inc breaks (or less) is enough for anybody, some may argue even that is too much.

I would argue way too much on 60 hrs, I don't know many other jobs that look on you doing 60 hrs as though you are a slacker. Most jobs advertise 38 hrs per week, with overtime as an option.

Yeh, I was meaning 60 including overtime tbh.
When I started (in the Middle ages :D ) it was a 12 and a half hour daily spreadover, we got paid time and a half overtime rate after 8 hours.

I

If l remember correctly r.r. 12and half seemed one hell of a day, didn,t do many l.ll admit,
but nowadays a lot of drivers would never rest unless they get their 15. Those hours seem better for the driver and safer too.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby chrismurray1501 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:51 pm

So what happens to us lot who spent best part of £1500 quid on class 2? Hardly seems fair especially if you wanted to get straight on to class 1 work.

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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Juddian » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:01 pm

chrismurray1501 wrote:So what happens to us lot who spent best part of £1500 quid on class 2? Hardly seems fair especially if you wanted to get straight on to class 1 work.

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In '76 it cost me £296 to go straight to class 1, wages roughly £40/60 for a bloody long week when i was on vans saving up, so what 6 weeks gross wages?

Say a wannabe driver is on £600 gross now for a weeks wages (for a similar hard working week), so 6 x 600 = £3600.

If it costs you another £2000 to get your class 1 costs really haven't changed much.
Normal govt suspended, decrees issued from tweedle dum and tweedle dee with no parliamentary oversight.

Heaven has a wall and strict immigration policies. Hell has open borders.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby robroy » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:32 pm

Bigtruck3 wrote:Would they have to give grandfather rights to the middle class drivers if they by pass that test

What?...The middle classes are joining this industry? :shock:
Surely not,.I thought they had too much sense...and money. :lol:
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Yorkshire Tramper » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:41 pm

I wonder with the driver shortage if things will revert to the standards of the 70s. The actual test was only 25 mins, very few manoeuvres demonstrated. Unlimited minor faults allowed. In fact unless you killed anyone or mounted the kerb on cornering you pretty much was garanteed to pass. But thngs are much more stringent now with the increase of traffic on the roads along with more powerful cars being driven. So are we going to see the test standards relaxed in order to satisfy the driver shortage?
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby the maoster » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:49 pm

Yorkshire Tramper wrote: So are we going to see the test standards relaxed in order to satisfy the driver shortage?


You may be on to something there. We all know how much officialdom likes to rearrange goal posts to satisfy targets, so it’s not beyond imagination that a blind eye will be turned in order to get arses on seats.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby DCPCFML » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:48 am

the maoster wrote:
Yorkshire Tramper wrote: So are we going to see the test standards relaxed in order to satisfy the driver shortage?


You may be on to something there. We all know how much officialdom likes to rearrange goal posts to satisfy targets, so it’s not beyond imagination that a blind eye will be turned in order to get arses on seats.


God help us if the test goes back to 70s standards :shock: . The roads are already brimming with clueless HGV drivers that can't drive for [zb].
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Montsoreau » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:36 am

Yorkshire Tramper wrote:I wonder with the driver shortage if things will revert to the standards of the 70s. The actual test was only 25 mins, very few manoeuvres demonstrated. Unlimited minor faults allowed. In fact unless you killed anyone or mounted the kerb on cornering you pretty much was garanteed to pass. But thngs are much more stringent now with the increase of traffic on the roads along with more powerful cars being driven. So are we going to see the test standards relaxed in order to satisfy the driver shortage?


Looks like it is already happening. The government statistics show tests conducted 2007-08 Male and female pass rate was 46.3% compared with the latest 2020-21 which is 58%.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... est-centre
It has always amazed me passing a bus (D) driving test do not enable you to go straight to class 1 (C+E) test. I imagine today’s bus test with all H&S would not be any easier to pass.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby msgyorkie » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:53 am

robroy wrote:
Bigtruck3 wrote:Would they have to give grandfather rights to the middle class drivers if they by pass that test

What?...The middle classes are joining this industry? :shock:
Surely not,.I thought they had too much sense...and money. :lol:

Drivers names on the sigining in sheet will go from being called "Dave" and "Stuart" to "Tarquin" and "Barnaby".
Cafe menu will no longer serve full english brekie but instead it will have quails eggs on top of sourdough bread with avocado smash.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Truckulent » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:38 am

I think the whole testing system is easier. My step son has just passed his car test.

And...

Wait for it ..

He's NEVER done an emergency stop. Instructor hasn't taught it him, he wasnt asked to do one on test. He only had to do one manoeuvre on his test - a really simple park.

The practical side he did last week was easier than the test I took in 1990...

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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Montsoreau » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:52 am

Truckulent wrote:I think the whole testing system is easier. My step son has just passed his car test.

And...

Wait for it ..

He's NEVER done an emergency stop. Instructor hasn't taught it him, he wasnt asked to do one on test. He only had to do one manoeuvre on his test - a really simple park.

The practical side he did last week was easier than the test I took in 1990...

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I believe taking a test in HGV, emergency stop is not part of the test.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Truckulent » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:56 am

Montsoreau wrote:
Truckulent wrote:I think the whole testing system is easier. My step son has just passed his car test.

And...

Wait for it ..

He's NEVER done an emergency stop. Instructor hasn't taught it him, he wasnt asked to do one on test. He only had to do one manoeuvre on his test - a really simple park.

The practical side he did last week was easier than the test I took in 1990...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I believe taking a test in HGV, emergency stop is not part of the test.
I can understand that.

But if they aren't doing them in cars now, we are going to end up with HGV drivers that have never done an emergency stop - ever.

Not sure how that's a step forward ..

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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Montsoreau » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:13 am

Truckulent wrote:
Montsoreau wrote:
Truckulent wrote:I think the whole testing system is easier. My step son has just passed his car test.

And...

Wait for it ..

He's NEVER done an emergency stop. Instructor hasn't taught it him, he wasnt asked to do one on test. He only had to do one manoeuvre on his test - a really simple park.

The practical side he did last week was easier than the test I took in 1990...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


I believe taking a test in HGV, emergency stop is not part of the test.
I can understand that.

But if they aren't doing them in cars now, we are going to end up with HGV drivers that have never done an emergency stop - ever.

Not sure how that's a step forward ..

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Looking on the internet looks like a driving test which requires the examiner to be in the vehicle, you do not do an emergency stop in your test. But any vehicle which an examiner is not in to conduct the test for example tractor motorbike tank or road roller you will be required to do an emergency stop. Must be H&S.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby M65Chris » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:43 am

Why doesn't the government fund class 1 tests...?

Wouldn't be that expensive either. At a cost of upto £2000 for the course and test, at the high end, it would be around £200m for 100,000 Class 1 courses and tests.

Given all the [zb] they spend money on, all the waste, this is pocket change.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby JeffA » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:56 am

If the shortage had happened 6 month ago they would have suggested letting Peter Sutcliffe back on the road - at least after he did his cpc.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby fingermissing » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:20 am

M65Chris wrote:Why doesn't the government fund class 1 tests...?

Wouldn't be that expensive either. At a cost of upto £2000 for the course and test, at the high end, it would be around £200m for 100,000 Class 1 courses and tests.

Given all the [zb] they spend money on, all the waste, this is pocket change.


Why should I pay for there course and test let them pay for there own.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Noremac » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:08 am

I noticed this open letter on Grant Shapps' twitter from a couple of days ago. Apparently an open letter to the "UK Logistics Sector".
page1.jpg
page2.jpg
page3.jpg

The joint letter says the way out is to be "led by industry", but with the government there to help. No recognition then for the private individuals who have funded licences purely for use in haulage for the last significant number of years. If it wasn't for these individuals this country would surely be well and truly on its knees.

No indication of any foresight on this issue when the tests were cancelled last year. At the end of March 2020, even a relatively obtuse truck driver like myself could see potential issues with cancelling tests:

Time lost, but how do you reconcile the impact on transport?

It also doesn't really take a genius to work out that Brexit may well result in qualified drivers vacating at short-notice. It is not as if there wasn't time to start the apprenticeship schemes earlier or start to think about recruiting more examiners earlier. But no, the government will wait and wait and make sure the horse has not just bolted, but has been running around in the paddock for a significant amount of time before doing anything. It takes Haribo hitting the headlines for them to wake up from their dazed confused state.

Now there is talk of giving provisional C+E without C being held purely to reduce the number of tests. So why were people having to sit C for the last significant number of years then? Was this to keep examiners busy or what? Well, dear government please contact all those who have passed C (and subsequently moved on to C+E) in the last twenty odd years and refund their test fees, vehicle hire fees and instructor fees for the test days. You may as well throw in reimbursement for the retests (if applicable) too.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Winseer » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:01 pm

It is clear that the government doesn't talk to any drivers, doesn't even talk to any acting managers that *used* to be drivers - for a better picture of all that's right and wrong with the industry, and what they hope it will one day become "Proxy Serfdom for the Masses" by the looks of it.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Gidders » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:20 pm

If the government were to hold meaningful talks with LGV drivers' representatives who would they speak to?
Unions ? A Trucknet Select committee? RHA?
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Winseer » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:43 pm

That's the thing: Who does represent the LGV driver?

It's been an "I'm alright Jack" industry for decades now....

Had it gone down the path of say, the Train drivers, stronly unionized, and unmolested by Thatcher's so-called "Reforms" - we might be in a better place now, with the whole industry being "Dead Man's Shoes" rather than "Oh, that's wot Sutcliffe did for a living - wasn't it?" The public perception of a Lorry Driver.


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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Beetlejuice » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:35 pm

This is probably going to cost the same as 2 tests then?

I want a refund for my class 2 course Boris Bozzo ??

:roll:
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby Simon-Cov » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:24 pm

Montsoreau wrote:
Yorkshire Tramper wrote:I wonder with the driver shortage if things will revert to the standards of the 70s. The actual test was only 25 mins, very few manoeuvres demonstrated. Unlimited minor faults allowed. In fact unless you killed anyone or mounted the kerb on cornering you pretty much was garanteed to pass. But thngs are much more stringent now with the increase of traffic on the roads along with more powerful cars being driven. So are we going to see the test standards relaxed in order to satisfy the driver shortage?


Looks like it is already happening. The government statistics show tests conducted 2007-08 Male and female pass rate was 46.3% compared with the latest 2020-21 which is 58%.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... est-centre
It has always amazed me passing a bus (D) driving test do not enable you to go straight to class 1 (C+E) test. I imagine today’s bus test with all H&S would not be any easier to pass.





I passed my bus test (D) in the early 2000’s, I’m was amazed to find that passing that with the ability to carry nearly 80 members of public, on a vehicle as long as Class 2, didnt give me any rights to automatically convert the licence over.
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Re: Government announcement on HGV shortage

Postby DCPCFML » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:10 am

Noremac wrote:I noticed this open letter on Grant Shapps' twitter from a couple of days ago. Apparently an open letter to the "UK Logistics Sector".


What a load of guff in that letter. "We need more diversity in the workforce". Yeah, that'll sort it.
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